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Credits go to Audric, BAF, CGamesPlay, HardTranceFan, Indeterminatus, Kauhiz, kazzmir, Kikaru, Michael Faerber, OICW, Onewing, Thomas Fjellstrom, X-G, and Zaphos for helping out!
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[concept] Pong ARENA
HardTranceFan
Member #7,317
June 2006
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Quote:

You could alternatively make the shields shrink at a fixed rate regardless of player behavior
...
It should have roughly the same effect but avoid (I hope) the 'artificial' feel that X-G is worried about.

Or that the paddle deteriorates with every hit and needs a power up to replenish?

--
"Shame your mind don't shine like your possessions do" - Faithless (I want more part 1)

Kikaru
Member #7,616
August 2006
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The points for killing other players is a little more simplistic. I like the feel of it. :)

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

Powerups are ok but how about the goal of the game is for each player to collect items, like diamonds of the same color of the player.

This really reminds me of this party game on the 360... The rest of the game is a bit different, but adding the diamonds somehow makes it feel cheapend ;) maybe its just me.

Maybe the diamond setup could be one mode, and make several variants of the game with different targets and objectives.

As a party game, this would pwn some serious butt ;D

edit, makes me think though that it'd be really hard to play with a joypad if you only have two hands. I guess it depends on the controller, trigger like button for doing "things" (like letting a sticky ball go), a dpad or analog stick for movement and a dpad or analog stick for the paddle.

edit2, I've been looking for a good idea for a "demo" ds game for allegro, something better than my tic-tac-toe (with stylus) idea. And something more fun and interesting (for me to work on) than allegro's current demo (not that it isn't fun ;)). I think if you can pull it off, I may be able to port it to the DS. I'm not so good at the maths stuff, but I can hack some mean code when I get working.

edit3, if you don't have a host for this project, I have svn, ssh and webspace open for you ;) for the webspace you have a choice of two servers, my paid, faster server at strangesoft.net (or any address you want to use), and my home server at tomasu.org. Let me know, I'd be really happy to do it.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Dennis
Member #1,090
July 2003
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BAF said:

you could always make the shield shrink/disappear after the player has stood still for a set amount of time. This would force you to keep movin to avoid losing your paddle.

X-G said:

It feels too much like it was made specifically to force the player to move, which is not good game design. You want to make him want to move anyway.

Yes, the player should move because of the danger that lies in being easily punished by the other players instead of being punished by the game directly. So I like my first idea with the canyon and the possibility to push the campers off the gaming area better.

CGamesPlay said:

I like the idea of placing power-ups, and making those integral to winning.

I'm not sure whether they should be needed for winning. I'd like it better if they'd just add more spice to the game and more power to that player who uses them best. Sure, by that they will be indirectly turn to be the key to winning, so well, at this point in my line of thought I have no idea what you mean by "make the power-ups integral to winning" because it somehow will be like that automatically.

Zaphos said:

You could alternatively make the shields shrink at a fixed rate regardless of player behavior, so the players have to at least occasionally chase a 'shield replenishment' power-up that spawns away from corners.

This might be an optional rule but I don't think it should be in the default set of rules.

Kauhiz said:

Bomb-ball: The ball explodes after X seconds or after it has bounced off of something X times.

Love that one, a small number being displayed with the ball could indicate the time or the number of hits left until detonation. Since everybody will be able to see that number it should add an extra layer of tension to that particular game situation.

Kauhiz said:

Homing-ball: The ball homes in on the closest player.

This should be a very rare power-up since it is so powerful.

Kauhiz said:

Mirage-ball: Like split-ball, except the other ball is fake.

An interesting thought but it could be easily mistaken as a bug in the game if a player gets hit by such a ball and nothing happens. Well, maybe the mirage-ball could just travel through players(but not walls) and vanish after a set amount of time.

Kauhiz said:

The Ultimate Ball of Painful Doom: Slow-moving ball that can not be deflected;

I don't like this one. Players should always have a chance to defend themselves.

Kikaru said:

An idea for bitmap levels..

There will be no bitmap levels but the game should come with an easy to use playfield editor.

Kazzmir said:

Powerups are ok but how about the goal of the game is for each player to collect items, like diamonds of the same color of the player. Every time a player collects their color diamond a new one appears somewhere on the screen and they have to get it, dodging the pong ball all the while.

Every time someone gets hit by a pong ball they lose a point, but no one should gain points for killing people.

This can be made as a different set of rules. The game should support different sets of rules anyway and with polymorphism this should be fairly easy to achieve. There'd be a base class with methods for every game event (like player hit by ball, player collecting item) which the game calls. Each set of rules can inherit from that class and override the event methods to apply different effects to the current game state. That's just an idea though, there might be better ways to handle different sets of rules.

Kauhiz said:

Naw, I prefer the senseless killing TBH. :P

Me too, if it doesn't go overboard. Because then, any deathmatch game with traditional weapons would be better.

Tomasu said:

Maybe the diamond setup could be one mode, and make several variants of the game with different targets and objectives.

Yes there definitely needs to be support for different rulesets to satisfy everyone.:)

Tomasu said:

I think if you can pull it off, I may be able to port it to the DS. I'm not so good at the maths stuff, but I can hack some mean code when I get working.

No problem, I could help with the math. I currently think it will just involve a bit of trigonometry and some linear algebra, which I think I'm pretty firm with (at least up to the level that it is needed for this game:P).

Tomasu said:

if you don't have a host for this project, I have svn, ssh and webspace open for you ;) for the webspace you have a choice of two servers, my paid, faster server at strangesoft.net (or any address you want to use), and my home server at tomasu.org. Let me know, I'd be really happy to do it.

An svn repository would be cool. Not needed until there's at least a single player "move around" demo ready though. I think the basic system should be already coded before it first gets imported into the svn trunk. The final game will be hosted on my homepage and I'll of course also add it to the depot as I plan to write it in C++, using Allegro. Not sure what to use for the multiplayer code yet. Basically every player should have an arbitrary "controller" attachable, which could be anything from local keypresses to remote commands send by a different computer(player). If you'll be able to provide additional mirrors for the game download this will of course be appreciated. Goes without saying that the final version should come with sources and compile on various systems out of the box.

I'll probably also need help with the coding of the game as we are currently planning and later this year will be programming a quite huge monster of software at work which is going to suck up a lot of my energy. So I'll just have time to work on this project at the weekends and rarely in the evenings. (Because I think I couldn't code eight hours a day at work and then come home and continue coding.) In the end, I wouldn't mind writing all the code myself, it'll just take longer to complete it that way.8-)

I'll start writing/drawing the design document tomorrow and until thursday evening you can still contribute ideas and more brainstorming. On friday, as said before, there'll be feature-lock so any ideas posted after that, even if they're good, will not make it into the first version. (This is to increase the chances that there will be a first version someday and that it will not continue to grow and grow and grow and never come out.)

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I can't guarantee I'll help much ;) But a port to the DS would be fun.

Quote:

I currently think it will just involve a bit of trigonometry and some linear algebra, which I think I'm pretty firm with

Yeah, my skills in that department are lacking ;)

edit, Got an idea for a new "powerup", one that randomizes the bounce angle of the ball, and make it a possible combo with a super-speed "powerup" to make things extra fun.

So I guess adding certain powerups that can stack or not stack could be usefull. Maybe some powerups can cancel active poweups.

Oh, and another one, be able to store powerups as if they are ammo. So you can time the start of them, and when you use them. Some could be storeable, some may not be allowed to be stored, etc.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Quote:

An interesting thought but it could be easily mistaken as a bug in the game if a player gets hit by such a ball and nothing happens. Well, maybe the mirage-ball could just travel through players(but not walls) and vanish after a set amount of time.

Maybe if you add some nice effect that will show the ball disappearing in non buggy way it'll work good.

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"You can discuss it, you can dislike it, you can disagree with it, but that's all what you can do with it"

Dennis
Member #1,090
July 2003
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Ball angle randomizer: Check.
Power-Up inventory and on demand power-up activation: Check.
Mirage ball disappear in non buggy way: Check. (it will still travel through players like a ghost ball and disappear only after some time, so that more than one player can enjoy not dieing when "hit" by that ball type)
Attached to this post is the wip version of the design document in PDF.

Kauhiz
Member #4,798
July 2004

Quote:

I don't like this one. Players should always have a chance to defend themselves.

I see your point. Here's my thinking: the ball doesn't change immediately, so that the player using it has enough time to get away. The effect is short, and the ball moves very slowly. The scenario in my mind is that players will have to scram away as fast as possible, while still being alert, as the regular ball will shoot out randomly at a high speed. I think it would be a cool element to have in the game. Do as you see best, though.

---
It's Ridge Racer! RIIIIIDGE RAAAAACER!

Indeterminatus
Member #737
November 2000
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Bumpy (elastic) collisions plus high inertia (I'm thinking hover boats) might be a fun game mode as well. Add slow acceleration of the player characters and it'll require some tactical skill from the players.

edit: Oh, and very nice idea! Likes!

_______________________________
Indeterminatus. [Atomic Butcher]
si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses

Dennis
Member #1,090
July 2003
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Kauhiz:
I'll think about it again. If the effect only lasts two or three seconds and as you said the regular ball shoots out at high speed at a random angle after that, I can imagine this could indeed create a funny paniclike situation in the game. Alright, it will be in the game. :)

Indeterminatus:
Please elaborate what you mean by elastic collisions.
I like the high inertia thing but this would be playfield dependent. There will be slippery areas anyway, maybe there could be a flag to make every area slippery for that effect.

Me:
Oh dear, you haven't had any time today to continue working on the design document, so you'll probably need to do this on the weekend, which means that writing the code will start later also. You'll still declare feature-lock tomorrow evening though.8-)

Zaphos
Member #1,468
August 2001

Quote:

Please elaborate what you mean by elastic collisions.

Elastic collisions are ones in which kinetic energy is conserved, so the objects colliding would 'bounce'.

Audric
Member #907
January 2001

Yeah, "bounce" your opponents into the canyon! Reminds me of Micro Machines.

To discourage camping, I would make players slowly bloat over time, becoming larger targets.(the shield doesn't grow, mind you :) )
Running would make you slimmer, as would eating "slim" bonuses.

The glue would be a bit strong if you could run with the ball. It would be more balanced if you can't move while holding a ball, just keep sliding, aim, and shoot when you want.

Randomly appearing powerups (even small bonuses) are a must to keep players on the move.

Bonuses ideas: short trail of fire (deadly), of glue (slow opponents), of oil, of "wall" (ball and opponents bounce on it).
These would give a slightly Tron feel.

Kauhiz
Member #4,798
July 2004

Quote:

The glue would be a bit strong if you could run with the ball. It would be more balanced if you can't move while holding a ball, just keep sliding, aim, and shoot when you want.

If you're talking about the sticky paddle, I disagree. IMO moving is key to using the power effectively. That said, it should be restricted, I think the best way would be to limit the time you can hold on to the ball.

---
It's Ridge Racer! RIIIIIDGE RAAAAACER!

Dennis
Member #1,090
July 2003
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Zaphos said:

Elastic collisions are ones in which kinetic energy is conserved, so the objects colliding would 'bounce'.

Ah, so the balls will deform(compress) a bit on collision and then deform again(expand) and then shoot off? Nice idea. I'll see if I can somehow put that in.

Audric said:

To discourage camping, I would make players slowly bloat over time, becoming larger targets.

This would be direct punishment by the game (which I dislike). Even if it would affect every player and not only those standing still, it still doesn't feel right. It could be a "mutator"(UT anyone?;D) to the standard rules though.

Audric said:

Bonuses ideas: short trail of fire (deadly), of glue (slow opponents), of oil, of "wall" (ball and opponents bounce on it).
These would give a slightly Tron feel.

I don't like these, because they would affect players directly and not when they are hit by any of the different ball types who are supposed to be the main weapons in this game. These powerups would be too strong and probably would make players just use these instead of trying to use the balls to score and that would spoil the whole concept of the game.:-/

Kauhiz said:

If you're talking about the sticky paddle, I disagree. IMO moving is key to using the power effectively. That said, it should be restricted, I think the best way would be to limit the time you can hold on to the ball.

I never intended to disallow moving around with the sticky paddle and yes, it needs a time limit and if the player doesn't release the ball before the time runs up, the ball will auto-release from the paddle.

And now I declare feature-lock for this game. Anything that hasn't been brought up until now, will not be in the first version of the game.

Oh and thanks for all your thoughts and ideas everyone, cookie time!:)

Kauhiz
Member #4,798
July 2004

Keep us updated! :)

---
It's Ridge Racer! RIIIIIDGE RAAAAACER!

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Quote:

UT anyone?

Yep, I think that FatMan mutator worked like those with high number of frags were fatter than others - if speaking about that "bloating".

[My website][CppReference][Pixelate][Allegators worldwide][Who's online]
"Final Fantasy XIV, I feel that anything I could say will be repeating myself, so I'm just gonna express my feelings with a strangled noise from the back of my throat. Graaarghhhh..." - Yahtzee
"Uhm... this is a.cc. Did you honestly think this thread WOULDN'T be derailed and ruined?" - BAF
"You can discuss it, you can dislike it, you can disagree with it, but that's all what you can do with it"

Dennis
Member #1,090
July 2003
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I've uploaded the latest wip version of the design document. (now with some images)
I know, I originally planned to have the design document finished this weekend but it's just going to take a little longer (maybe a week more:P)

Kikaru
Member #7,616
August 2006
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Looks nice! Better than anything I have done... :-/

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