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Chrysler's view on Global Warming..
Kauhiz
Member #4,798
July 2004

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So, actually .... yeah, it just might be kinda normal.

Even if it was, we don't want it to happen. I mean if you're told that millions of people will lose their homes/lives and parts of the world will become inhabitable, you'd get a little concerned, right? So how does saying "but it's all normal, though" make it any better? I mean, there is absolutely no chance that all the CO2 and other shit we put into the atmosphere is preventing global warming, so we could just play it safe and assume it's making things worse.

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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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I'm still iffy on the whole melting ice caps thing. If most of the ice is underwater anyway and ice takes more space than water, wouldn't that mean the water level ... drops?

The thing about melting ice is that it's the only "smoking gun" that the scientists can point to that they think the public will understand. They are melting, so why not use that to scare the billions of coastal dwellers into thinking they must do something? You can show pictures of icebergs collapsing or the "before" and "after" shots of mountain tops. But if you try to give them one of the graphs that Evert posted, they'll think it's a new type of roller coaster.

Richard Phipps
Member #1,632
November 2001
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they'll think it's a new type of roller coaster.

Ohh! The death defying Global Warming ride!

nonnus29
Member #2,606
August 2002
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In all honesty guys, doesn't it ever occur to you that when people who actually work on weather patterns, climate or glacier formation say there's a problem, they may actually know what they're talking about?

Not necessarily. Researchers live to get grants to fund their research. If they can spread some fud and get more grants, I think alot of them would. Especially for assertions that can't be proved/disproved for centuries. Science and politics are deeply intertwined for some people.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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The iceberg itself becomes water.

Yeah. And takes up less space. This is what I'm saying. :)

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In all honesty guys, doesn't it ever occur to you that when people who actually work on weather patterns, climate or glacier formation say there's a problem, they may actually know what they're talking about?

I think we've established in previous discussions that I don't really believe in something just because "these guys say so, you can trust them". Incompetence and special interests are rampant in our world, after all. :) (edit: beaten by nonnus)

Anyway, I didn't say I didn't think it was a problem, just throwing some stuff out there. I'm less concerned about the ice caps and more concerned about the previously mentioned Gulf Stream, actually. I don't like what might happen to western and northern Europe if that thing stops.

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Edward Sheets
Member #4,734
June 2004
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As concerned Allegroites, I think we need to stop and consider changing our daily routines to improve the situation. We need to consider the energy we are wasting by blitting our sprites to the buffer. I propose that we blit them directly to the screen from now on, thus eliminating the need to blit the buffer to the screen (which requires considerable energy and generates additional heat in the CPU and GPU). We should consider a framerate limitation of 30fps and add a timer function that takes a new parameter-> BPS_TO_EARTH_TEMP which will only run our logic cycles when the Earth's temperature is at or below average.

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23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Well, it's true my computer overheats playing most OpenGL games nowadays. I should do my part for the planet and swear off video games entirely.

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Software Development == Church Development
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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Researchers live to get grants to fund their research. If they can spread some fud and get more grants, I think alot of them would. Especially for assertions that can't be proved/disproved for centuries. Science and politics are deeply intertwined for some people.

Remember whom you're talking to here. How many colleagues of yours work/have worked on weather patterns and the climate?
Also, if there were funds being dealt out for fake research with a predetermined outcome, don't you think oil companies would be the ones doing it?

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And takes up less space. This is what I'm saying.

You didn't read my edit, did you? The iceberg moves its own mass while floating in water. It still moves its own mass when turned to water - the water level doesn't change.
But you don't need new water to get sea levels to rise - just increasing the mean temperature by a tenth of a degree will do that for you.

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I think we've established in previous discussions that I don't really believe in something just because "these guys say so, you can trust them".

No, you rather belief what's written down in the Bible than what people tell you. Sorry if that hurt, but it really galls me no end when people blockheadedly refuse to listen to reason or wilfully close their eyes to the evidence before them. Look at the damn temperature graph.

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I'm less concerned about the ice caps and more concerned about the previously mentioned Gulf Stream, actually.

I'm not, but then again, your country isn't below sea level.
In 1953 springtide and a western storm breached dikes along the coast, flooding 175,000 acres of land and killing almost two thousand people. If something like that were to happen today, the death toll would be very much higher. The dikes were reinforced after the floods, but it's clear that they won't be strong enough in a few decades if the sea level continues to rise in the way that it has been rising.

Hey, but don't mind me! I'm just one of those lieing scientists who need a job in a year or two. >:(

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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To be fair though, you're an astrophycisist, not a meteorologist.

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Richard Phipps
Member #1,632
November 2001
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We are going to rechristen Britain as the Glorious Emprire of New Atlantic in 2100.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Remember whom you're talking to here.

Oh, I am! I remember you all too well.

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No, you rather belief what's written down in the Bible than what people tell you. Sorry if that hurt, but it really galls me no end when people blockheadedly refuse to listen to reason or wilfully close their eyes to the evidence before them.

It didn't hurt, because it's not true. Remind me to ignore you in future religious discussions; you seem to be good at refusing to listen too.

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You didn't read my edit, did you?

I did.

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Hey, but don't mind me! I'm just one of those lieing scientists who need a job in a year or two. >:(

K!

BTW, if you wanna get a little more credibility, wanna explain the "But you don't need new water to get sea levels to rise - just increasing the mean temperature by a tenth of a degree will do that for you"? See, I need information here, I'm not gonna believe/doubt it based on what some yahoo in a web forum told me. :)

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gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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Quote:

BTW, if you wanna get a little more credibility, wanna explain the "But you don't need new water to get sea levels to rise - just increasing the mean temperature by a tenth of a degree will do that for you"?

Density changes with temperature. Water is at its densest at 4 °C - beyond that, density decreases as temperature increases. Since the mass is constant, that means the volume increases.

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Edward Sheets
Member #4,734
June 2004
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Whether or not you believe the data regarding global warming, try watching a busy city intersection for a few minutes and think to yourself that this is just one of billions of such intersections in the world - each one packed with internal combustion powered vehicles. Each one of those vehicles is steadily putting out greenhouse gases among other toxic things. If you parked just a few vehicles in an enclosed area and ran them at idle, it would kill anyone or anything inside in a short time - regardless of temperature. Factor in pollution from energy facilities and factories. I don't know exactly how much we have affected our climate, but we have had a major impact on this planet with our wasteful ways, there can be no doubt about that unless you just want to tell yourself otherwise so you can sleep better at night. It's a dirty shame that more planning didn't take place when we went industrial. It's damn hard to change course now that we already have almost complete reliance on coal & oil, etc..

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Note: carving a pentagram on the top of a container of spoiled yogurt does not summon a yogurt demon. -Kikaru

Kauhiz
Member #4,798
July 2004

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Since the mass is constant, that means the volume increases.

Yeah, and since there's a lot of water in the oceans, even a relatively small increase will show.

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It's a dirty shame that more planning didn't take place when we went industrial.

I'm guessing they couldn't anticipate stuff like this back then. It's always hard to estimate what will happen with new technology. Computers are a great example of this.

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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Remind me to ignore you in future religious discussions; you seem to be good at refusing to listen too.

Yes, because saying (not meaning you specifically; I may have been venting some frustration in your direction unjustly) "I don't believe in global warming, it's just marketing" is really giving arguments.

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I did.

In which case, I ask: what part of "no, the water level doesn't sink when an iceberg melts" didn't you get?
By the way, I didn't consider this before, but it makes a difference wether the water is sweet or salt. Salt water has a slightly higher density; having a sweet iceberg melt in salt water will make the sea level rise (because the density decreases).

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BTW, if you wanna get a little more credibility, wanna explain the "But you don't need new water to get sea levels to rise - just increasing the mean temperature by a tenth of a degree will do that for you"? See, I need information here

Water expands when heated (actually, most substances do). I thought that was pretty well known. And if you don't take my word for that I really am going to change my opinion of you.

EDIT: hmm... beaten on the expansion front...

EDIT2: Regarding being open minded; as I wrote in my first or second (I think) post in this thread, it's not that long ago that I considered "human contributions to global warming" nothing more than Greenpeace-propaganda. Bear that in mind.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Yes, because saying "I don't believe in global warming, it's just marketing" is really giving arguments.

Arguements have been given from both sides. The ones who speak more intelligently are the most likely to be believed.

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In which case, I ask: what part of "no, the water level doesn't sink when an iceberg melts" didn't you get?

Yeah, my thought was more that it would break even, actually ...

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Water expands when heated (actually, most substances do). I thought that was pretty well known.

You've got a big bridge to build between that and what you said though. :) This isn't "water warming", it's "global warming". Why a tenth of a degree? How close to that are we actually (there's a helluva lot of water out there)? What other factors might regulate that? By how much does the mean temperature of the water change now?

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gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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This isn't "water warming", it's "global warming".

... one implies the other.

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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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See above edit

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my thought was more that it would break even, actually ...

Well, that's not what you said!

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You've got a big bridge to build between that and what you said though. :) This isn't "water warming", it's "global warming".

That's thermodynamics for you. Heat flows from hot to cold. Normally, there's a balance of heat flow between the ocean and the atmosphere, such that on the whole neither of them grows warmer or colder (of course there are fluctuations, but there is no overall trend): there is no net heating. If you heat up the air (which is what global warming does), you add a source to the balance. Eventually some of the heat you added to the atmosphere is transported to the ocean (the principle is that of "equipartition of energy" if you want to look it up). Net effect: you've heated up the ocean.
Of course, water has a large heat capacity, so it's much harder to warm up the ocean than it is to warm up the atmosphere. Conversely, it's a lot harder to cool as well.
The ocean is a big thermostat that normally prevents temperature on Earth from fluctuating too much. Heat it up and you disrupt that thermostat.

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Why a tenth of a degree?

An example meant as a small number that seems insignificant, but which can already have measurable consequences. And memory.

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How close to that are we actually (there's a helluva lot of water out there)?

We're past that, I think - but I'll need to see if I can find a reference for that. Caveat: the number I remember may be specific for the North Sea, not global average ocean water.
By the way, there is a "neat" diagnostic tool for measuring fluctuations in sea water temperature: coral reefs. It's known from trying to keep coral alife in an aquarium that they tend to die if the water temperature is just slightly too high. This has been observed to happen.
(Yes, I know, pollution kills coral reefs too - so do the people who did this research). It's been a while since I read about this research, so I may have some trouble finding a reference for you.

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much does the mean temperature of the water change now?

As I said, I think this is already in the order of a tenth of a degree.

EDIT:
I'm sorry it's in Dutch, but it was the fastest way I could find a relevant reference: http://www.knmi.com/VinkCMS/explained_subject_detail.jsp?id=2621, you may have some luck throwing it to Babelfish. Although it will only tell you what I have already said above.
Or this one: http://www.knmi.com/kenniscentrum/nieuwe_inzichten_zeespiegelstijging.html
Some numbers from there: the sea level is rising at a rate of 3mm per year over the past few years. By 2100, the sea temperature is estimated to have increased by 4 degrees.

HardTranceFan
Member #7,317
June 2006
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Quote:

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In which case, I ask: what part of "no, the water level doesn't sink when an iceberg melts" didn't you get?

Yeah, my thought was more that it would break even, actually ...

As Richard Phipps pointed out earlier, it's not the icebergs already in the sea that are a worry, it's the amount of ice on top of the antarctic land that's the concern (and other land masses with vast quantities of ice on them). This ice isn't in the sea, but sitting on a land mass out of the sea.

Icebergs in the sea are like ice cubes in a glass of water - if they melt, the level of the water barely raises (if at all). But the ice on the land mass is like an ice cube suspended above and out of the glass water - melt it and it adds to the volume of water already in the glass, dramatically increasing the water level.

Add this to the sea level rising through the increase in temperature, and you have a double whammy.

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Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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So what terrorists should REALLY be targeting is the polar ice caps? ;)
Wouldn't a nuclear bomb or two melt enough ice to set off a chain reaction?

Then what? We build a giant solar powered freezer to put in the ocean? ;)

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Steve Terry
Member #1,989
March 2002
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In 10 years I'm moving to Antarctica... where the weather will be warm :) Of course I'd have to get used to 6 months of total darkness followed by 6 months of sunlight :P

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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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I do my part! I light my apartment with three compact fluorescent light bulbs.

{"name":"590980","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/2\/b28907f6a78e85e077503398d7679ff6.jpg","w":640,"h":693,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/2\/b28907f6a78e85e077503398d7679ff6"}590980

Actually I bought them because they look cool. 8-)

nonnus29
Member #2,606
August 2002
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Remember whom you're talking to here. How many colleagues of yours work/have worked on weather patterns and the climate?

So your claiming more perfect knowledge AND denying that you should be required to make better arguments because of.... osmosis? Association with 'really' smart guys?

That's just laughable.

The simple truth is long term climate change is completely unknown. Those who think human activety contribute to it may have a point. And they may not.

What irks me is people who talk about things like the density of frozen and liquid water, present graphs of a tiny fraction of the planets meteorilogical history AND then claim to have enough understanding of this astoundingly complex system to make predictions.

You guys aren't climatoligists. The analysis presented here is shallow and anecdotal at best.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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What irks me is people who talk about things like the density of frozen and liquid water, present graphs of a tiny fraction of the planets meteorilogical history AND then claim to have enough understanding of this astoundingly complex system to make predictions.

I'm afraid I have to agree with nonnus here. when I was working for NIWA, they were doing a lot of research on global warming (the implications of global warming, should the theories prove sound, are important to an island nation where at least 75% of the population live on the coast). Most of the climatologists I talked to stated that they needed at least several thousand years of accurate worldwide data to be able to determine if human activity was having as much effect on the atmosphere as some scientists claimed.

Steve Terry
Member #1,989
March 2002
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I have compact fluorescent bulbs as well in my house :) Well currently my computer room but I will be putting them in other rooms as well.

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