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Reasons to like or hate Java, C# and C++
Fladimir da Gorf
Member #1,565
October 2001
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Quote:

Will you use jogl?

Sure, I guess that's the easiest approach... and most effective, performance wise.

OpenLayer has reached a random SVN version number ;) | Online manual | Installation video!| MSVC projects now possible with cmake | Now alvailable as a Dev-C++ Devpack! (Thanks to Kotori)

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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BAF: what does .NET have over Java's standard libraries?

Honestly, I have no idea. TO be fair, I have never programmed in Java in my life. I just have seen how slow and poopy most Java apps feel and look, so I never gave it a shot.

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Actually William, they both work, not high performance, but work very well. Eclipse is the best IDE I've ever seen, and it's java, and if you have enough memory (more than 512mb ram) it's perfect, better than any microsoft crappy shit

I don't know what "microsoft crappy shit" you're talking about, but Microsoft actually did something right when they made Visual Studio. It is by FAR the best and most stable IDE I've ever used. It has tons of neat features, a sweet debugger, and it is stable (hasn't randomly crashed on me like other IDEs have).

nonnus29
Member #2,606
August 2002
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1) The problem with java and .net for games isn't speed. That's argument is a complete nonstarter. Anyone who thinks it is just ignorant and parroting what others tell them. The problem with .net and java for games is distribution: people can't be arsed to download x jre or .net version x or mono version y. So you lose.

2) .Net wins in business for thin client apps and destktop apps because of ms dominance, but MS dominance isn't garunteed to extend very far into the future.

3) Java wins in server side apps due to the simple fact it was first and there are alot of large business applications coded in it already.

4) None of the above suit my needs for allowing a small group of developers to re-engineer a 35 million LOC application within say, one year.

Man these threads get really old...

edit;

Quote:

Honestly, I have no idea. TO be fair, I have never programmed in Java in my life. I just have seen how slow and poopy most Java apps feel and look, so I never gave it a shot.

So it's save to say you haven't used eclipse or netbeans and your opinion is based on visual studio vs dev-c++? That's some real incite there, wow, thanks for sharing! ::)

Felipe Maia
Member #6,190
September 2005
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I don't know what "microsoft crappy " you're talking about, but Microsoft actually did something right when they made Visual Studio. It is by FAR
the best and most stable IDE I've ever used. It has tons of neat features, a sweet debugger, and it is stable (hasn't randomly crashed on me like other IDEs have).

I've used MSVC 6 and MSVC 8, and I prefer hundreds of times Eclipse. The only thing Visual Studio has of good in my opinion, it's the compiler, which is hundreds of time better than gcc or whatever...

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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I like how you can select a function and be taken to it, the nice code completion (which actually works), and the debugger.

nonnus: Why would I try out a language that has felt slow to me numerous times, when I know other languages which do not present that problem and work fine for me? It's not just an application or two, but most Java apps that are even remotely complex are slower than death. One of the only apps of moderate complexity written in Java that doesnt look like shit or feel slower than death is Azerues, and that is the reason I continue to use it.

Marcello
Member #1,860
January 2002
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I'm impressed that you've felt the speed of death. No real issues with Java programs here, but then again, my computer doesn't suck.

Marcello

CGamesPlay
Member #2,559
July 2002
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Yeah, this has degenerated into trolling.

--
Tomasu: Every time you read this: hugging!

Ryan Patterson - <http://cgamesplay.com/>

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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It has nothing to do with the computer when a C/C++ app does the same thing as a Java app, only much quicker. It's not as noticable on my good computers as it was on my old 366mhz box.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

Yeah, this has degenerated into trolling.

Some Java heads like to post randomly about how java roolz. Even in threads that have nothing to do with java (not that thats the case this time).

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Goalie Ca
Member #2,579
July 2002
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Quote:

The problem with java and .net for games isn't speed.

I would say that it is a problem for any modern computationally intensive game. Theoretically it can be faster but practically it isn't. I would argue that the "java doesn't take a performance hit" are just java fanboys countering the c++ fanboys using token arguments. :D

C# is clearly not fast enough. Even MS admits so. When you get the DX SDK you can clearly see that managed directx, even without com overhead, has quite a bit of work left to be usable. C# is also a horribly slow for computationally intensive stuff.

-------------
Bah weep granah weep nini bong!

Felipe Maia
Member #6,190
September 2005
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Quote:

Some Java heads like to post randomly about how java roolz. Even in threads that have nothing to do with java (not that thats the case this time).

You're missing the point here, it was quite the opposite. All programming languages serve their purpose, just use if you like.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

All programming languages serve their purpose, just use if you like.

I totally agree. some others here however don't. Like the ones that randomly post about how "java roolz" in unrelated threads :)

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

CGamesPlay
Member #2,559
July 2002
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Quote:

C# is clearly not fast enough. Even MS admits so. When you get the DX SDK you can clearly see that managed directx, even without com overhead, has quite a bit of work left to be usable. C# is also a horribly slow for computationally intensive stuff.

Fortunately in my case I am making a fairly simple 2d game, so I don't have a ton of overhead.

--
Tomasu: Every time you read this: hugging!

Ryan Patterson - <http://cgamesplay.com/>

Steve++
Member #1,816
January 2002

Quote:

The problem with java and .net for games isn't speed. That's argument is a complete nonstarter. Anyone who thinks it is just ignorant and parroting what others tell them. The problem with .net and java for games is distribution: people can't be arsed to download x jre or .net version x or mono version y. So you lose.

You can embed a JRE within an exe (using JNI) so the users don't have to download anything extra. The only problem is that it bloats the exe.

I said that because it may be of practical use to someone. Partaking of the third C++ vs Java vs C# thread in two weeks is not of practical use to anyone, so I will coughJavarulescough resist coughC++isuglycough the urge.

Billybob
Member #3,136
January 2003

Quote:

The problem with java and .net for games isn't speed.

Making a VM with JIT call a native DLL that has different data types is fun!

nonnus29
Member #2,606
August 2002
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Quote:

nonnus: Why would I try out a language that has felt slow to me numerous times, when I know other languages which do not present that problem and work fine for me? It's not just an application or two, but most Java apps that are even remotely complex are slower than death. One of the only apps of moderate complexity written in Java that doesnt look like shit or feel slower than death is Azerues, and that is the reason I continue to use it.

I could care less about your personal opinion of java or .net. My point was that you were commenting on IDE's as an expert when you had no experience with the two most significant ide's out there that happen to be primarily java ide's (eclipse and netbeans):

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BAF:
Microsoft actually did something right when they made Visual Studio. It is by FAR the best and most stable IDE I've ever used. It has tons of neat features, a sweet debugger, and it is stable (hasn't randomly crashed on me like other IDEs have)

Oh really? That's nice. Now if you had actual experience with other ide's besides vis studio, code blocks, and dev-c++, or whatever else, then your opinion would carry more weight. As it is comments like that are just noise; meaningless.

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Like the ones that randomly post about how "java roolz" in unrelated threads

I assume that was pointed at me, but I don't see why. I fully qualified my statements as being relative to .net and java because they're both jit'd platforms.

edit;

More innane statements;

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.Net is by far the best multipurpose library I've ever seen (except for that it's not portable). C# is nice too, and it inherits it. You want a nice sockets API? .Net. You want a native, good-looking, easy to use GUI? .Net. You want X? You can probably find it in .Net.

And you admitted you've never used the alternative. I think this is pure trolling and I'm calling you on it. :-*

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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Quote:

I could care less about your personal opinion of java or .net. My point was that you were commenting on IDE's as an expert when you had no experience with the two most significant ide's out there that happen to be primarily java ide's (eclipse and netbeans):

I never claimed I was an expert and what do you know about any experience I may or may not have? I never put down the Java IDEs.

Quote:

Oh really? That's nice. Now if you had actual experience with other ide's besides vis studio, code blocks, and dev-c++, or whatever else, then your opinion would carry more weight. As it is comments like that are just noise; meaningless.

Experience has nothing to do with this. It is my opinion. I said VS was the best IDE I have used. I didn't say Eclipse or Netbeans sucked or that they weren't better than VS.net. I haven't used them, so they aren't included in those that I have used. I said nothing about Java IDEs.

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And you admitted you've never used the alternative. I think this is pure trolling and I'm calling you on it. :-*

That opinion had no experience or anything to back it up. Feel free to call me on that one. :P

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

I assume that was pointed at me, but I don't see why.

It's perfectly "on topic" in this thread. Albeit some very nice trolling.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Archon
Member #4,195
January 2004
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Quote:

but MS dominance isn't garunteed to extend very far into the future.

Sorry nonnus29 but your arguments seem aggressive and don't have much foundations to back it up -- how would Microsoft not continue to survive?

I actually agree with BAF that MSVS (2003) is a very nice IDE as I appear to be more productive with using it rather than KDevelop/Kate/Nedit/Scite and whatever else I've used but it may just be the settings. I have not used 6 (or below) or 2005 much or at all to compare them.

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No real issues with Java programs here

Even Java applets? I would have to say that I'm impressed with Runescape which was made with Java which is why I put Java up for debate here -- and whether Java would be good for any games.

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C# is clearly not fast enough.

For a hobby programmer such as us, wouldn't you believe that C# may be in our interests? Instant cross-platformability (except for the underlying DLLs but those may be installed once and forgotten), and that no of us seem to make processor-intensive games except when we've messed up with the code. Perhaps a cleaner language could undo that last point? :D

Marcello
Member #1,860
January 2002
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No issues with Java applets either, I've written quite a few. :D

Marcello

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

As a long time user of Visual Studio 6.0, I have to say I have seen many crashes in the last few years that I am using it. I never saw Eclipse crash though (although I do not use it as long as VS). I think the reason is garbage collection: a C++ IDE is a very complex app, and therefore the propability of having a wild/null pointer in C++ is very high. Visual Studio 8.0 crashes a lot less, although I have seen it crashing twice.

Java and .NET are slower for certain tasks because of the way the languages are structured. There is always a trade-off involved: productivity vs performance. C#/Java allows the programmer to think more about algorithms from a higher level point of view than C/C++, because in C/C++ there are lots of gory low-level details to take care of. Productivity is also a function of library complexity, and sometimes with C# and Java you pay the price because many libs are over-engineered.

Simon Parzer
Member #3,330
March 2003
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I never saw Eclipse crash though (although I do not use it as long as VS).

This is only true if you never run out of memory. We once had to use Eclipse on our school computers (256 Megs of RAM), and it did crash a lot, especially while saving :(. All those annoying windows popups ("There is no memory left", or something like that), always running in virtual memory... awful!
When using Visual Studio at the same computers there is no problem at all.

Felipe Maia
Member #6,190
September 2005
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Quote:

This is only true if you never run out of memory. We once had to use Eclipse on our school computers (256 Megs of RAM), and it did crash a lot, especially while saving . All those annoying windows popups ("There is no memory left", or something like that), always running in virtual memory... awful!
When using Visual Studio at the same computers there is no problem at all.

I have 256mb RAM at home, and can use Eclipse very well. Never seen it crash. It might have been due to lack of virtual memory, that maybe was disabled or whatever.
Eclipse is the future's IDE, you can't program a plugin for Visual Studio, can you? Microsoft will try to catch up, but Eclipse is much more advanced at the moment.

CGamesPlay
Member #2,559
July 2002
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Quote:

Eclipse is the future's IDE, you can't program a plugin for Visual Studio, can you?

This thread has degenerated to trolling! No side knows anything about the other!

--
Tomasu: Every time you read this: hugging!

Ryan Patterson - <http://cgamesplay.com/>

Felipe Maia
Member #6,190
September 2005
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Quote:

No side knows anything about the other!

I don't know all, but I do know something :)
swings his troll club

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