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building your own computer
nonnus29
Member #2,606
August 2002
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So if you purchase a mobo and processor, can you get oem winxp at a discount? If I built a system today I'd have to install win me then use my upgrade disk to upgrade to win xp, provided I can find them and they both still work.....

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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If you buy from newegg, you can get Windows XP oem anyway, pro for $150. They send you a Y power splitter cable, thats all you need to "buy" (they have it on for $0 after a $5 instant coupon) to be eligible for OEM.

Michael Jensen
Member #2,870
October 2002
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Quote:

Quote:
Who uses ribbon cables anyway? Rounded IDE cables..mmmm....;)
Who uses the old IDE with those huge cables? SATA all the way :P

Regardless of the type of cable, if it rubs on a fan it's going to make an annoying noise, get grilled fans.

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You typically want the following fans:
Processor fan. Critical.
Video card fan. Very important, especially if you go with a 6600GT ;D
Exhaust fan. Very important and commonly overlooked. This fan will blow air out of your computer. Typically this is placed at the rear of the case.
Intake fan. Less important than the exhaust, but still quite important. This will bring new air into your case and is typically at the front of the case.

Processor fan is a given.
Video card comes with stock fan that is usually not changable (if it needs one.)
Exhaust/Intake fan are built into the powersupply. Your case was engineered by people who knew what they were doing, and it's own design + the power supply allow for proper air circulation. The powersupply is not only an output mechanism, otherwise only hot air would flow through it, and your transformers would overheat.

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Hmmmm... I tried that, but it got the cpu temperature higher instead of lower... probably the intake fan disturbed the air flow through the case, so it wouldn't reach the cpu anymore. BTW, yes, I tried both rotation directions...

Exactly.

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AMD Athlon 64 3700+ San Diego 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Processor Model ADA3700BNBOX - Retail

GIGABYTE GA-K8N Pro-SLI Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 SLI ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail

eVGA 512-P2-N435-AX Geforce 6800GT 512MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail

Nice! What kind of memory/hdd are you buying for it?

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So if you purchase a mobo and processor, can you get oem winxp at a discount?

Says Dezero & BAF. Nice.

... A guy at my work says that he ordered OEM software before (didn't specify from where) but says that it came with a piece of ancient non-functional busted up circuit board in the box with a note telling him to disregard the included hardware, and that it was included to comply with OEM regulations.

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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Quote:

Exhaust/Intake fan are built into the powersupply. Your case was engineered by people who knew what they were doing, and it's own design + the power supply allow for proper air circulation. The powersupply is not only an output mechanism, otherwise only hot air would flow through it, and your transformers would overheat.

Wha? Most power supplies that come with a case aren't worth a crap, and powersupplies have one way to blow air, and thats out. You will usually want other fans in the case. My case came loaded with fans to move air too.

Pravit
Member #5,648
March 2005
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The CPU I linked to says it comes with a heatsink and fan. Do I need to buy another fan on top of that? I guess my real question is, "What fans do I need besides the ones that will come with parts I need to order?"

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Nice! What kind of memory/hdd are you buying for it?

Is the choice of memory manufacturer important? I just picked the cheapest 184-pin 1GB DDR memory:
Patriot 1GB 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 333 (PC 2700) Unbuffered System Memory Model PSD1G333 - Retail

About hard drives: What's the difference between PATA and SATA? I guess I might get this, though I don't really know how to pick out good hard drives:
Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 SATA NCQ 3.5" Serial ATA150 Hard Drive - OEM

Power supply: Anything to be aware of in particular or can I just get the cheapest one?

Case: I'm also going to go for the cheapest one I can see unless there's anything I need to watch out for.

Am I going to have to buy cables to hook everything together or will these parts already come with them?

Archon
Member #4,195
January 2004
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Is the choice of memory manufacturer important?

I think so. There's articles saying how spending extra money on a trusted brand works out better than buying no-name ones.

Pravit
Member #5,648
March 2005
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Which memory manufacturers do you trust?

Archon
Member #4,195
January 2004
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I've only had Kingsmax/Kingston and I now have PQI.

I haven't had any troubles with them.

Other people trust Corsair and OCZ. Some people use Geil but I haven't heard anyone on Allegro.cc mention it (except myself).

Note that I don't overclock, so it's still possible that Kingsmax/Kingston or PQI can't handle it well.

Pravit
Member #5,648
March 2005
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Is it possible to attain drastic(or at least noticeable) speed gains by overclocking?

Archon
Member #4,195
January 2004
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Quote:

Is it possible to attain drastic(or at least noticeable) speed gains by overclocking?

I would assume so, many people do it.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Most people do it to get N more points in useless benchmarks. Now some chips will let you get 400 more mhz or so, but usually not iirc.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Archon
Member #4,195
January 2004
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Quote:

Now some chips will let you get 400 more mhz or so

PC3200 RAM (400mhz) is displayed as 200mhz in the BIOS screen right? :-/

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Thats why they call it DDR ;)

Its "double pumped" as in it can send/recive data twice in one clock cycle.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Archon
Member #4,195
January 2004
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Quote:

Its "double pumped" as in it can send/recive data twice in one clock cycle.

Yeah but they might've made the BIOS say "400MHz" in that case.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Why? Its not running at 400mhz.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Archon
Member #4,195
January 2004
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I see now.

Michael Jensen
Member #2,870
October 2002
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TF: In that case does the BUS run at 400MHz, and the ram is just double pumped at 200MHz, or is everything 200MHz...?

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Wha? Most power supplies that come with a case aren't worth a crap, and powersupplies have one way to blow air, and thats out. You will usually want other fans in the case. My case came loaded with fans to move air too.

That's what todays research on the net has taught me, I guess you can't really trust what you were taught in highschool, I think it was part of the A+ hardware prep that we were shown posters of air flow thru a computer, and it had the air comming in the fan's bottom area, across the processor, cycling around the case, and out thru the top of the fan (i think at that point it was supposed to be pass thru.) wild.

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The CPU I linked to says it comes with a heatsink and fan. Do I need to buy another fan on top of that? I guess my real question is, "What fans do I need besides the ones that will come with parts I need to order?"

no; none.

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Case: I'm also going to go for the cheapest one I can see unless there's anything I need to watch out for.

usually case and power supply ship together, make sure that your power suppy is "big" enough for your computer; not as much of a problem anymore tho, most new powersupplies that I've seen are 400W.

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I think so. There's articles saying how spending extra money on a trusted brand works out better than buying no-name ones.

If the memory is good, he should have no problems, so as long as their is a return policy if the memory happens to be bad, I see no problems; You can buy expensive memory that can be just as bad as cheap memory...

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Note that I don't overclock

Right then, didn't consider that -- I can see that overclocking would need memory that can handle the higher bus speed and maintain stability. I trust kingston.

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Is it possible to attain drastic(or at least noticeable) speed gains by overclocking?

In this new era it seems so, back when I was in highschool and everyone was doing it, no, not really. Most of what I saw going on was 120mhz -> 133mhz, etc... altho further back in the day, before multipliers were standard (and most cpus MIGHT not have had heatsinks on them!) a friend's dad, who was a comp geek, had a 486 (family comp) 33MHz that jumped to 66MHz on the press of a button, but we wern't allowed to press it, only him (and he only did it if he needed to load windows 3.1)

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Quote:

Is it possible to attain drastic(or at least noticeable) speed gains by overclocking?

Depends on the CPU. A64 2GHz OC'd to 2.5GHz is quite a bit faster than in stock speed. It could be even faster than a stock a64 running around the same speed if memory runs 1:1 with FSB.
Stock:
multiplier: 10, FSB: 200, CPU speed 2GHz
OC'd:
multiplier: 10, FSB: 250, CPU speed 2.5GHz
If you have a really good ram you could OC like this:
multiplier: 9, FSB: 278, CPU speed 2.5GHz

The last setup will probably be faster than the second one.

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

Dennis
Member #1,090
July 2003
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Michael Jensen said:

A guy at my work says that he ordered OEM software before (didn't specify from where) but says that it came with a piece of ancient non-functional busted up circuit board in the box with a note telling him to disregard the included hardware, and that it was included to comply with OEM regulations.

I think that whole OEM regulations thing, does not apply to germany. You can buy OEM software anywhere here, without the need to buy hardware along with it. I got my WinXP Pro OEM version(no handbook, no support(but who needs that anyway?)) for around € 115.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Quote:

Exhaust/Intake fan are built into the powersupply

No. There is absolutely no intake fan in any power supply I have ever seen. That's ridiculous.

The power supply does act as a mild exhaust fan, but that is not it's purpose at all. If it is a cheap power supply that is included with your case it is likely to only have one low rpm fan at the rear which will not serve as a very good chassis exhaust fan at all. The purpose is to release air from the power supply unit, not from the computer case. Heck, many cases are designed these days with the power supplies below the other components.

It is optimal, in a case that is designed properly, to have both intake and exhaust fans. If you add an intake and an exhaust fan and it reduces your air flow or obstructs your air flow and causes negative effects then your case is not designed properly and should be replaced. If you buy a half decent case it will already come with these fans anyway.

As for RAM, Geil is nice. It was the best on the market for a short while when they introduced their dragon-something models. Really tight timings. Personally, I like OCZ. The Platinum EL stuff is amazing. :)
For the average user I would just recommend name brand modules on generic PCBs. I prefer samsung for price and reliability.
Avoid Micron and Infineon like the plague. I've had issues with Hynix on bad PCB's as well. Winbond makes good modules.

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Is it possible to attain drastic(or at least noticeable) speed gains by overclocking?

Yes, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you know what you're doing. Especially without additional fans. Using the stock fans and no exhaust/intake when overclocking is begging for heat issues. Pushing the limits of your hardware often comes at a price.

Overclocking has become a lot more user friendly, but it can still be very damaging if you're not sure what you're doing. Higher frequencies means more power consumption which leads to more heat. If you can't dissipate the additional heat, then you will need to purchase a new processor and/or motherboard sooner than you would have expected.

If you do/did go with the Chaintech and plan to overclock, I would strongly advise getting some additional fans. The chipset will require air circulation (as it has passive cooling) and without it your overclocking results will be very poor -- or very expensive.

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Power supply: Anything to be aware of in particular or can I just get the cheapest one?

If you're going with the cheapest power supply and the cheapest case, you're going to need to purchase a new power supply in the future and perhaps some parts that it takes along for the ride.

I would recommend getting a decent case with a good power supply. Better yet, a mid-range $40 case with a seperate power supply. I always recommend the OCZ PowerStream, but it isn't cheap. About $70-$100 for a 420W. Of course, it will probably last you 10-20 times longer than a power supply that is included in your case and will be 20-30 thousand times more reliable ;)

Some cheaper cases from Antec, AOpen and Asus (just to name a few) will include half decent power supplies, but these will not last as long as the OCZ and will not be as reliable.

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What's the difference between PATA and SATA?

SATA is faster, but the difference is not very big. However, your board supports SATA II. I would recommend investing in a Seagate with NCQ - like the one you posted a link to. Seagates have a 5 year warranty. As a general rule of thumb a hard drive will die on the day it's warranty expires, so keep that in mind when deciding which manufacturer to go with ;)
Seagate and Samsung both offer 5 year warranties. I prefer Seagate.

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Am I going to have to buy cables to hook everything together or will these parts already come with them?

Everything you need will be included. Some fancy cables you might want - such as Rounded IDE cables, as mentioned - but they aren't necessary. If you use cable ties and keep the inside of your case neat and tidy then ribbon cables should not be in the way. If you do decide to go without intake and/or exhaust fans then rounded ide cables are ultimately pointless.

Ok, there you go. You've now completed my 3-week training course ;)

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Quote:

No. There is absolutely no intake fan in any power supply I have ever seen. That's ridiculous.

Depends on a definition :P
My PSU has two fans: one sucks air in above CPU heatsink and other one blows out of the case.
That means my PSU has an intake fan bit it doesn't work as an intake fan for the case :)

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Especially without additional fans. Using the stock fans and no exhaust/intake when overclocking is begging for heat issues.

My 3GHz p4 prescott with inbox cooler and no extra casefans (only PSU one) has been working perfectly fine at 3.8GHz and 75-80C :P

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If you're going with the cheapest power supply and the cheapest case, you're going to need to purchase a new power supply in the future and perhaps some parts that it takes along for the ride.

I agree. Also better PSU's are probably much more effective. E.g qtec 650W psu took ~1kW of power from wallsocket if it had to give out power ~400W and around 450W it just blew up.
My old 300W Vikings got extreemly hot when it had to power my new prescott. If my calculations were correct my PC used around 350W power. Fortunately it didn't blow up. My new 370W Enermax is almost at room temperature and probably uses much less juice to power my PC.

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SATA is faster, but the difference is not very big.

Speed difference is bigger if you have to put two IDE drives to one cable. There is no such problem with SATA. Also SATA cables take much less room and don't distrub air circulation as much.

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Quote:

Depends on a definition :P

There is only one definition for 'intake' and 'exhaust'. Intake brings air into the computer, exhaust takes air out of the computer. Power supplies have their own intake, but they do not effect the air intake of the case.

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My 3GHz p4 prescott with inbox cooler and no extra casefans (only PSU one) has been working perfectly fine at 3.8GHz and 75-80C :P

That was my point, 75-80C is considered a 'heat issue'. You do realize that your prescott probably is not getting a very effective overclock at those temperatures, right? 80C is high, even for a prescott.

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Speed difference is bigger if you have to put two IDE drives to one cable.

Only if you're simultaneously using two drives on the same channel.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Derezo said:

There is only one definition for 'intake' and 'exhaust'.

Let me repeat

Derezo before said:

There is absolutely no intake fan in any power supply I have ever seen.

I said:

My PSU has two fans: one sucks air in above CPU heat sink and other one blows out of the case.

Yes, there is no case intake fans on a PSU but there certainly are PSU intake fans.
I do understand that you meant there are no case intake fans in a PSU. It is just that one can't say there are no intake fans on a PSU.

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You do realize that your prescott probably is not getting a very effective overclock at those temperatures, right?

According to a few tests I did it didn't seem like it was throttling or anything. If you didn't mean that it is throttling then what else did you think by "not very effective OC"?

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80C is high, even for a prescott.

Yes, it is high but it is not lethal and it seems it hasn't done anything bad with it during the last ~8 months.

Another high temperature story.
Someone had put CPU cooler on a bit wrong and there was about 1mm of air between the IHS and the cooler. It had been used daily for several months until I got my hands on it. I let it to crunch some numbers at full load for more than 24h and when I started studying why it didn't do as much as I had hoped to I saw it was running at almost 100C and probably not at its default speed. After fixing the issues it ran perfectly fine with normal temperatures.

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Only if you're simultaneously using two drives on the same channel.

Probably, last time I had only one two IDE drives in my PC was a long time ago but I remember when I got an additional drive performance wasn't as it used to be.

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Quote:

Yes, there is no case intake fans on a PSU but there certainly are PSU intake fans.

We weren't talking about cooling power supplies at all, that's the important part to keep in mind. The discussion was about cooling within the computer itself, not the internals of specific components.

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It is just that one can't say there are no intake fans on a PSU.

Under this context you can, because under the context of cooling a case an intake fan brings air into the computer by definition. It's swell that many power supplies have proper cooling systems too, but I don't recall that being disputed. The power supply's intake fan is an exhaust fan for the computer. It will never bring air into the computer, it takes air out of the computer.

Anyway. The entire point about intake and exhaust fans being important is that 80C is a far cry from ideal. Since I don't know a whole lot about how the Intel cpu throttling works exactly - I would have expected that to occur at 70C or so, but you say it isn't - I don't know about your specific case. However, with a typical AMD Athlon (with cool & quiet off ;)), you will surely see problems if you overclock your processor any significant amount with stock cooling and no auxilary cooling whatsoever. With cool and quiet on you will definitely see performance issues running at or above 70C. Even without overclocking you are going to be running things in a cooling environment that is less than ideal for any components using passive cooling.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
avatar

Your hdd is good, you shouldnt need to buy more fans, and as far as RAM, i've only had experience with no-name brand, Corsair, and OCZ. OCZ was in a box i built for someone else, his box got only several hundred less than my box (he had a 2800+, i have a 3200+, he had an ati 9600 pro card, agp, and i have pci-e 6600GT). The corsair is in my box, and no-name is in my old celeryon. THe noname worked fine, but i didnt do anything extensive with it.

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