It's not that easy and I highly doubt, that you did understand my post even in the slightest possible way. (I was not, in no way, defending religion or saying anything about it being provable.)

I know it's hard to understand my post, because to get it, you must switch to a very different way of thinking. A way of thinking that should not even be 'allowed' because it questions everything from the smallest crumb of nothing to the most complex entity of anything. And the premise that must be accepted for that post to make sense is, that the "world" as we "know" and "observe" is created "in our minds", rather than anywhere else.
Inside that (admittedly next to insanity and very unusual) sphere of thinking, it simply can not be said for two different things, which is true and which is not, because "meanings" for words like "knowledge","evidence","experience" and such are actually questioned themselves for the truth they hold or not hold.

It's probably best explained by asking oneself the way through towards insanity, like this:
:MARK0
What's the definition of "definition"?
-A definition is a description that puts a meaning to...yadda,yadda,yadda
What's the definition of "description"?
What's the definition of "meaning"?
Can there be anything like "definition",if there is no such thing as a "definition" for a "definition", because without using the meaning and description of "definition" itself, you can't build a complete and well structured system of anything?
In the end you'll end up not daring to "think using words" anymore, because you also question the legitimation of the actual existence of a "sense" or a "meaning" to anything.
To make it even more extreme: I'd have to "put" "every" "word" "in" "quotation" "marks" "like" "this" "to" "express" "their" "not" "self-contained" "meaning". In the end you'd find yourself sitting around in a cornver, loonatically staring blankly at a white wall, having your mind trapped in an idle state of "nothing.", which you can of course not think about it that way, because you would not be allowed by the consequence of questioning everything to even exist, but then again "existing" is also just what it is, by some definition. GOTO MARK0

Don't get me wrong...I am NOT pushing GOD on anyone, but...

Think about this...Even if you believe in evolution, the big bang, blah blah blah...Where do you think this all come from? This super MASSIVE ball of gasses, chemicals, metals, ect all just came from nowhere?!? Now that is retarded! I agree that there is a lot of confusion with as to what GOD is or what ever, but there has to be something that created the universe and everything in it...even if just the beginnings of it and let evolution play out...Just as people don't believe in aliens. You have to be stupid to think that! I mean, there is more planets and stars in the universe than there is sand grains on the ENTIRE EARTH!!! You mean to tell me that out of trillions upon trillons of planets, that we are the only species out there?!? Yeah...maybe they are too far away for us to ever contact, but come on! Be realistic! I hate nothing more than people that say they are scientific, but yet act totally fucking retarded!!! Just my thoughts on the subject!

If so, who created the something? Or how did the "something" get into existance?

Let's call the something IPU to make things simpler.

So, if believe that IPU created the universe (since something must have created it), you have either to ask yourself what created IPU (since something must have created it) or accept that IPU simply is. But, if you can accept that IPU simply is, you should also be able to accept that the universe simply is.

Ok. So, you do believe that something created the universe (since you're not retarded). And since something can't simply be, you can surly answer what came before the something that created the universe, or what something created the something that created the universe.

If you can't do that you either contradicted yourself (so you should revoke your "retarded" statement) or stated that believing in something that siomply existed and then created the universe is equally retarded.
It's up to you.

Or...how about there is a never ending cycle of the universe...for example:

1. Big Bang
2. Everthing expands out
3. Everthing gets "sucked" back into a super massive black hole
4. Black hole "spits" out the "new" universe
5. repeat step 1

Where as our current understanding of black holes, this is indeed possible. Time itself gets destorted in these black holes. So, maybe there really is no beginning or end?!? Maybe we just must except the fact of what we know now and leave it at that...and of course, drink beer!

Yeah...I always get these wild and grand visions in my head...just never turns out on paper!

Agreed...and indeed, we are not worthy, with our punity minds, to understand the intericacies of the universe...such as they are. How many times in science have we seen how something we THOUGHT was true, turns out to be something different?!? And again I sip my beer!

If we look back at Steves first post I agree with both it and my answer (the one he wanted).

I believe in both of these statements. Personally I am an atheist and proud of it, but there really is no reason for me to change someone elses mind. Unless their belief results in actions that in some way harm me or my fellow human beings.

In my experience being religous or not doesn't change anything really, there are no group of people with higher moral standards. We are all more or less egocentrical takers.

this is an "it thing" thread. (personal conotation that is very very bad, developed by my brother)

burn!

Invisible Pink Unicorn pwns all other gods .

[edit]

Manjula: you're so right!

If you know that absolutely nobody here will understand your 'inside joke', why make it? Inside jokes have been made since the dawn of time and will be hence forth and forever, but still nobody will understand it. So basically, we can't accomplish anything here.

The pink invisible unicorn bows before Nigoth, the Worm God by the way.

Some questions I have now that some christians have their attention to this thread:

• What happens to people who never gets a chance to read the bible or talk to a christian person? I know that it's odd today as it's so wide spread but in past times this has been true.

• In the beginning Adam and Eve got kicked out from paradise if I understand things correctly. Which year was this? -someConstant I guess.

• How are the evolution theories handled by christianity in general? Is it believed to be the true story or did God create it all? Or did he do it through evolution?

• How can one be sure that the bible is correctly translated from hebrew into english (for example)?

• If Jesus is the son of God, is he then a sort of half God?

• "We so-called Christains have to push it on other people as that is part of the religion itself.", is this what all christians think? And if that is your belief I guess you have to answer these questions as it will cast some light on what Christianity is.

I wouldn't say I have to, but I'll sure try to the best of my knowledge. One thing's for sure, I'm just a believer and not really a missionary, so my thoughts are kind of my own philosophical babbling. A true missionary who knows the religion inside and out would be more fit to answer these questions. But alas...

Good question. I don't know enough Bible references to quote, so I can't really say for sure. I've often wondered myself. I've often wondered what the true passage into "Heaven" is. There are so many different versions of Christians and differing beliefs, one of them has to be wrong and not necessarily does any of them have to be right. That makes for a sticky situation. Hypothetically speaking, God would not allow His word to be, I don't know, unreachable to any given person. However, there's got be a situation of a person who has not been contacted by another a christian or the bible. Therefore, God must give them a chance of some sort (I would sure hope). But there's no proof of this and we can never prove it, because we'd have to ask a dead person.

The thing that bothers me about the Bible (I know, me saying the Bible bothers is a weird statement in itself), is that it's hard to tell when it is literal or metaphorical. However, in respect to faith, belief and religion, I don't see how the year can make a difference, but I'm open to comments. For all we know, we might be on a time-circle rather than a timeline and the year could be both the first and last year of existence. Wow, I want to play Chrono(Trigger/Cross) for some odd reason...

There was a lot of controversy here. There are quite a few who say evolution is impossible. There are some who in-turn say Christianity is impossible because of evolution. I don't know the answer or defining proof of one way or another, but I can definitely say both sides are being too closed minded. Evolution has to much evidence of being possible. Perhaps God made a Spore game and just sat back and watched, intervening from time to time. Wait, does that make Will Wright God? (j/k)

We can't. How can we even say the Hebrew version is right? Bet that blows your mind...Even though the Bible is the Word of God, it is written by man. Christianity states that all men (and women, to be politically correct) are born in sin and have to repent. Jesus had to come because no one could be 100% perfect and sinless. Therefore, all humans have some probabilty of making a mistake. Lastly, if the Bible was written by men, there's chance that there's a mistake. When I read the Bible, I take it close to heart, but I pray on the topic for verification. God Himself knows if the given text in the bible is right or wrong. I'll comment more if you want on this topic, but that's a good summary.

I've asked so many questions on this topic. Jesus is God and God and is Jesus. I don't know how and that doesn't make much sense to me, but I'm still looking into it.

Not all Christians, but a lot of people who mistaken think they are Christians. It's pretty much taught that a believer is to spread the word. Unfortunately, this has gotten out of hand way too many times and is cause for several wars. I believe it is my duty as a believer to express my thoughts and oppinions ans suggestions on the religion to non-believers, but not in a way of chizzling them into a believer. The truth is, I can't make someone a Christian, only the person themself can. So I try to provide my wisdom (or knowledge, if you don't think it's wisdom, ) so they can have something to ponder on and decide for themself. If they choose not to believe, that is their choice. I won't walk away or point my finger at them. I'll treat them just the same as before.

That's my answers, I guess. Feel free to put your own thoughts on the subject. I like to take everything everyone's thought and make as reasonable deductions as possible.