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God
Avenger
Member #4,550
April 2004

Quote:

Can you prove it?(that infinity is possible)

Well, can you disprove it? I never wanted to prove anything, nor disprove. In my last post (I think) I said that I do not say that it is that way, I just say that anything might be true. Proving or disproving religion is just the stupidest thing that can ever be done, one can believe/disbelieve but not prove/disprove

Toasty
Member #5,611
March 2005
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Micah Crow said:

The era of religion is over, religion is dead. Deal with it.

Whatever you say, Nietzsche. Maybe in another hundred years you'll be right this time. :P

Karadoc said:

It may sound a bit cold, but the 'Soul' is simply unnecessary in our understanding of ourselves.

You are applying an argument similar to that which was earlier applied to the question of God's existence. If you want to show logical inconsistency within a set of religious beliefs, you should take certain premises (such as the existence of God and souls) for granted for the sake of argument. Otherwise it is enough to simply say that science has no evidence of such phenomena.

Another example of such a thing would be the idea of the afterlife; there is no empirical evidence for such a place, of course, but it is expressed in the beliefs of the religion. If you have evidence against the existence of the soul or afterlife or whatever other supernatural phenomena it would be worth arguing against said existence, but otherwise it's simply not a compelling argument.

Quote:

Can't God just bestow this faith upon us?

Where is the glory in a God who forces people to believe? There is no glory in a caged animal paying attention to you, but there is when it follows you around outdoors where it is free to run away. If it is difficult (but not unreasonable) to believe in God's existence, then God is more glorified by that belief. You could see 'glory' as a kind of appreciation as I use it here.

kikabo:
I notice you didn't attempt to refute the verse with Thomas. How does lack of context explain that one?

And I agree, context is important when analyzing verses, but for the sake of brevity I didn't give an in-depth context explanation for those verses. Let us then reconsider John 8:58 by starting with the surrounding verses. (My apologies for the lengthy quote to those uninterested)

John 8:48-59 said:

Then the Jews answered and said to Him, "Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?"
Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."
Then the Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.' Are you greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?"
Jesus answered, "If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, 'I do not know Him,' I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?"
Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

In these verses Jesus was speaking to a crowd of Jews in the temple. It is a lengthy discussion that begins earlier in the chapter. Now, what would trigger the Jews to want to stone Jesus so suddenly? He had already implied that he was greater than Abraham and that they did not know God, and even called them liars. What truly enraged them was Jesus' deliberate use of the phrase "I AM," a clear reference to a state of preexistence and solely attributed to God. Consider when Moses encountered God as the burning bush:

Exodus 3:14 said:

And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Indeed, the Hebrew word Yahweh was derived from the Hebrew verb for "to be." This is a reference to God's nature as not being defined or determined by any other than Himself, the self-existent One. The Jews whom Jesus was speaking to would have been quite familiar with this name of God and recognized it immediately when Jesus applied it to himself.

Note that this is also applicable to Trezker's hypothetical question of "Where did God come from?" According to the Bible, he did not come from anywhere; he simply is. I think that's an acceptable property for an omnipotent, omnipresent being to have.

Carrus85
Member #2,633
August 2002
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Here, let me put some more stuff into "Perspective"

Once again

*** WARNING: LDS Theological Statements ***

I'll give you a very short and abriviated answer (I wrote up a much longer post, but it is just a wee bit to long to get the point across)...

Why doesn't God confer faith upon us if he is all powerful, all knowing?

Because it defy's the one of the primary points of this existance; to prove that when given the choice and presented with alternatives, that we will choose to follow Jesus Christ, no matter the consequences.

Where did God come from?

Heh, that is a fun question. Let me answer that one with a quote

Lorenzo Snow said:

"Man is what God once was, and God is what man may be."

Yes, I am saying what you think I'm saying... ;D

*** WARNING: This post contained LDS theology ***



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