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Rachel Gets Fruity
Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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The line before that was meant to create a proper context for the second line.

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Proper care of your body will prevent cancer even if you come into contact with carcinogens on a regular basis.

I should have changed the next part from "Cancer is only a problem ..." to "Cancer is primarily a problem ..." :)

Cancer is a pretty big topic :)
I've never known anyone personally to die of cancer who was healthy (non-smoker, little/no alcohol, little/no drugs, healthy diet & regular exercise) but there are a lot of things that make you suceptible to cancer. Such as inherited genes. In general, though, if you are healthy (see previous parenthesis) and avoid carcinogens then you are extremely unlikely to get cancer.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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Quote:

Proper care of your body will prevent cancer even if you come into contact with carcinogens on a regular basis. Cancer is only a problem for people who are regularly exposed to carcinogens and are of poor physical health.

Yeah, like Lance Armstrong or, for the Americans, Brian Piccolo. Or any of these people.

Note at the bottom of that page (outside of the sports category) people such as Skylar Neil, who died of cancer aged 4. Sounds a lot like the lifestyle caused that one.

Quote:

In general, though, if you are healthy (see previous parenthesis) and avoid carcinogens then you are extremely unlikely to get cancer.

Testicular cancer is 'enjoyed' by about 1 in 450 people here and the doctors that treat it claim there is absolutely no correlation with lifestyle. If I believe my television then 1 in 3 will at some point have some sort of cancer.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Yeah, that 'only' really needs to be cut out if you're going to start offering up 0.000000008% of the population as evidence ;)

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Sounds a lot like the lifestyle caused that one.

Cancer can be hereditary. See previous post :)

[edit]
To clarify my points: People get cancer, but in the vast majority of cases it is mostly due to lifestyle.

Quote:

If I believe my television then 1 in 3 will at some point have some sort of cancer.

That seems a little ridiculous, but that fails disprove that lifestyle has a dramatic effect on your chances of getting cancer. It just means people lead unhealthy lifestyles. :) Which we already know from other statistics.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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Derezo said:

Cancer can be hereditary. See previous post

She's the daughter of Motley Crue drummer Vince Neil, who has never had cancer.

Derezo said:

Yeah, that 'only' really needs to be cut out if you're going to start offering up 0.000000008% of the population as evidence

I'm sorry, I'll start editing wikipedia's list of famous people who have had cancer to include all people. If you have a better suggestion than "people famous for being good at sport" to rebut your 'only' then I'd like to hear it. Perhaps you have access to some sort of list of everyone who's ever had cancer? Your entire opinion seems to be based on:

"I've never known anyone personally to die of cancer who was healthy"

Not that I'm suggesting a 20 year old hasn't seen all that life has to see, but you seem to be ignoring all of the facts and statistics.

Shockingly, The American Cancer Society seem to think that 2/3rds of fatal cancer is lifestyle related.

But perhaps when you said "you are extremely unlikely to get cancer" you meant "you have only just over a 1 in 10 chance" (female) or "you have only just under a 1 in 6 chance" (male)? And by "in the vast majority of cases" you meant 66%?

EDIT:

Quote:

That seems a little ridiculous

The American Cancer Society's statistics (warning: PDF).

Summary:
1 in 2 for males from birth to death, 1 in 3 for females.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Quote:

She's the daughter of Motley Crue drummer Vince Neil, who has never had cancer.

Unless Vince had no parents and is an asexual being, that means nothing. Genetics do not come from the father alone, or even the parents alone. My father had testicular cancer when he was very young, but that doesn't mean I will, either. It means I have a higher chance, and so do my kids, and so do my grandchildren. Hereditary cancers are 'genetic'.

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If you have a better suggestion than "people famous for being good at sport"

People who are famous for being good at sport(s) are often injesting (or injecting) carcinogenic products. So, really, that statistic is not all that relevant to my argument. You need to take into consideration all the people who lead unhealthy lifestyles and their cancer rate against all of the people who lead healthy lifestyles (avoiding carcinogenic material, as well) and their cancer rate.

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to rebut your 'only' then I'd like to hear it.

I already retracted the 'only', read back a couple posts. I realized my mistake before you posted a response and have corrected myself a few times :)

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Not that I'm suggesting a 20 year old hasn't seen all that life has to see, but you seem to be ignoring all of the facts and statistics.

Not at all. I said I've never seen it, not that it doesn't happen. There is a big difference. I've never seen a million dollars, but I do know it exists.

Quote:

But perhaps when you said "you are extremely unlikely to get cancer" you meant "you have only just over a 1 in 10 chance"? And by "in the vast majority of cases" you meant 66%?

Well, I suspect it's even less than that given that my claim is a little more extensive. You need to take into consideration both parts - healthy people avoiding carcinogenic substances. There is a very big difference. Jimmy Joe who works at Rubber Maker Inc. does not count, regardless of how many pushups he can do. :) Nor do any smokers, heavy drinkers, drug users, people who live very close to chemical plants, etc.

A cancer foundation isn't exactly unbiased, either. They have a marketing team that is trying to get donations.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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How can people argue about this, unless they really are saying the same things in different words?

Lots of people get cancer, including those who live the "proper" way. Those who do things that are known to cause cancer (smoking) get it more. Seems pretty obvious to me...

The sad thing is that the way people figure out that something causes cancer is to notice 40 years later that everyone who does X ends up with cancer. :-/

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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I suspect TH is just being nit picky over that 'only' part ;)
I've been slightly more aggressive than I actually intended. I should have stuck to my first quote: "Proper care of your body will prevent cancer."
A lot more basic. Nothing to nit pick there. :)

Quote:

The sad thing is that the way people figure out that something causes cancer is to notice 40 years later that everyone who does X ends up with cancer. :-/

..but they continue to do it anyway ::)

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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Quote:

A cancer foundation isn't exactly unbiased, either. They have a marketing team that is trying to get donations.

The bottom of their cancer statistics PDF to which I linked says this:

Source: DEVCAN ... http://srab.cancer.gov/devcan/

The source is the government, not the cancer foundation - they are merely republishing the statistic for press purposes.

Quote:

I already retracted the 'only', read back a couple posts. I realized my mistake before you posted a response and have corrected myself a few times

Your statement that causes so much offence was:

"Proper care of your body will prevent cancer even if you come into contact with carcinogens on a regular basis. Cancer is only a problem for people who are regularly exposed to carcinogens and are of poor physical health."

"back a couple of posts" you clarified:

"People get cancer, but in the vast majority of cases it is mostly due to lifestyle."

Obviously this disregards your original claim that the combination of both carcinogen exposure and poor physical health is to blame for all problematic cancers and is therefore to be applauded as a correction.

Given that you're now saying "you are extremely unlikely to get cancer" means "you have a more than 1 in 10 (female) / 1 in 6 (male) chance" then I don't think we disagree any longer.

That said, perhaps you'd like to explain how your statement fits with males being about 50% more likely to develop cancer than females?

Quote:

I should have stuck to my first quote: "Proper care of your body will prevent cancer."
A lot more basic. Nothing to nit pick there.

No. It can be dismissed immediately as untrue. Recap the statistics quoted and sourced to date:

A healthy lifestyle can help prevent around 2/3rds of fatal cancers.

1 in 2 males will experience cancer.
1 in 3 females will experience cancer.

Assume that prevention of fatal cancers is equivalent to prevention of non-fatal cancers, due to lack of statistical sources.

So, 1/3 of 1/2 of males will experience cancer despite taking "proper care". I would not say that 1 in 6 (almost 17%) getting cancer meets your claim of "will prevent cancer". Similarly 1 in 9 (about 11%) for females.

Of course, you may attack my slightly lose statistical basis to reach this conclusion. In which case you must accept either:

(1) that statistics are not available
(2) that better statistics are available (and you have them)
(3) that better statistics are available (but you cannot find them)

In which case:

(1) you must accept you are speculating wildly
(2) your statistics will reveal the true picture
(3) your statement rests purely upon your own credibility on those statistics

EDIT:
The quote you should have used and stuck with was sure not "[p]roper care of your body will prevent cancer" but "proper care of your body will significantly reduce the risk of cancer".

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Quote:

No. It can be dismissed immediately as untrue.

By proxy are you saying improper care of your body does not lead to an increased chance of developing cancer? :-/ That would be like saying smoking doesn't cause cancer.

Quote:

That said, perhaps you'd like to explain how your statement fits with males being about 50% more likely to develop cancer than females?

Radiation. This forum is the best example. More than 90% male. Many sitting in front of high radiation CRT monitors while all the girls are out at the gym. As technology improves and more people move to LCD monitors, I'm sure the statistics will follow and even out! ;)
Just kidding, I'm not sure. It's likely genetic, but I'm finding it difficult to find sources on this topic either way.

[edit]

Quote:

So, 1/3 of 1/2 of males will experience cancer despite taking "proper care". I would not say that 1 in 6 (almost 17%) getting cancer meets your claim of "will prevent cancer".

You're bending definitions.

Quote:

Prevent: To keep from happening: took steps to prevent the strike.

If statistics show, as you've pointed out, that maintaining a healthier lifestyle lowers the risk of cancer (and it does), then preventative steps would be to maintain a healthy lifestyle.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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Quote:

By proxy are you saying improper care of your body does not lead to an increased chance of developing cancer?

No, as I edited to my previous post - probably after your new one had appeared, I agree with this statement:

"proper care of your body will significantly reduce the risk of cancer"

But not this one:

"[p]roper care of your body will prevent cancer"

I do not agree with your claim that there is a direct connection but I accept a strong correlation.

EDIT:

Quote:

I'm not sure. It's likely genetic, but I'm finding it difficult to find sources on this topic either way.

if you can make sense of it, http://srab.cancer.gov/devcan/ is probably quite helpful!

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Yeah, I didn't catch your edit when I posted. See edit above.

There seems to be a small difference between those statements, to me. Reducing risk is what preventative measures are all about.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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It's preventative, it doesn't prevent. If I sold mud guards for bikes with the following advertisement:

"mud guards will prevent mud from hitting your bike"

What do you think might happen to me?

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Well, technically, they do prevent it from hitting your bike. It hits the guard instead.

Right? :P

[edit]
Ok, I guess I'm the one slightly bending definitions ;) My thinking machine is broken.

Though, in the cases where the mud did hit the guard the mud was prevented from hitting the bike. Same with cancer. In the cases where healthy lifestyles are chosen and cancer never develops cancer has been prevented.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Goodbytes
Member #448
June 2000
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Males may be more likely to develop cancer because our reproductive organs continue to function more or less until death, whereas females undergo menopause; all that rapid cell division and hormone transfer is probably prone to causing a few mistakes once in a while, especially as a person ages. Hence cancers of the prostate (but not testicular cancer, which rarely occurs in males over 40, apparently) may be more likely for an older man than cervical or breast cancer would be for older women.


--
~Goodbytes

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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Quote:

Well, technically, they do prevent it from hitting your bike. It hits the guard instead.

Not all of it. Some of it goes on the pedals. And if your bike falls into a muddy puddle then the mud guards aren't going to achieve very much at all.

spellcaster
Member #1,493
September 2001
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Quote:

Proper care of your body will prevent cancer even if you come into contact with carcinogens on a regular basis.

Speaking from my own experience, that's pretty much bull.
I was competing on international level, the guy in the bed next to me was playing handball in the the 2nd league. I really doubt that your physical fitness really is an factor for many of the different types of cancer.

--
There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I don't know if you realize this, but "competing" puts enormous stress on the body. Now just staying fit is a good thing, but actively pushing your system to the limit isn't exactly a good thing.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Well, that's how you get fit. ;D You put more stain on your body than it expects, and it adapts.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Duh. To a point. Now keep doing it constanty. For years. Push your system to its breaking point. It will indeed break.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Soga
Member #4,589
May 2004

X-G said:

Leukaemia is a form of cancer. ;) Blood cancer, to be precise.

Leukemia, silly UK-man. :P

RallyMonkey
Member #4,615
May 2004
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Haha, TF has been getting in lots of arguments lately. Something bothering you TF?
UPDATE: Wait, disregard this. I thought it was TF through this whole thing. Not Derezo and TF.

NOTICE: This post's grammar/spelling/puncuation is definitive. English is frequently inaccurate.
---
"Puppet Sex!!!!" - Goalie Ca

spellcaster
Member #1,493
September 2001
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<quote>I don't know if you realize this, but "competing" puts enormous stress on the body. Now just staying fit is a good thing, but actively pushing your system to the limit isn't exactly a good thing.[/quoe]
Well, since I was doing platform diving at that time (me being 15) I doubt that I pushed my "system to the limit" for years. Platform diving is 80$ mental and 20% physical (Give or take 10% :))

But I'm sure you have something to back your opinion? Like .. well.. numbers?

--
There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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If I had numbers, It wouldn't just be an oppion now would it :P

I'm sure I could come up with some after some research, but I don't feel like it :)

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

spellcaster
Member #1,493
September 2001
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Sorry, since you were presenting your opinion as a fact, I thought you might have some numbers.
But if it's just an opinion...

--
There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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It is however something I considder to be fact. The human body is just a machine, and like any machine, it'll break down prematurely if overworked.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

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