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Collaborators for Allegro Demo Game Competition?
Elias
Member #358
May 2000

It's supposed to allow immensly cool physics :) And it's all working now. But I agree, it is much more complicated than a simple tile map.

The attached .zip contains a new version of the blender exporter. I think it supports now everything the game supports. Hopefully someone will make a level now.. :)

The .zip also contains an updated version of my "hilly" level, I tested materials with different frictions and the foreground property.

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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Quote:

But I agree, it is much more complicated than a simple tile map.

Not from my point of view. I'm good at general thinking but poor at specifics. For example, with a tilemap I would

Besides which, you're missing a large part of the point - this is the demo game! The physics code runs from line 38 to line 303 of game.c. Comments are still sparse but the code is not particularly 'compact', and the special case bits for dealing with movement from one quadtree node to the next occupy more than 40 lines on their own doing almost identical things for high and low bounds of x and y.

Whatever level the designer wants to implement with whatever combination of shapes, that remains all that needs to be understood and all that needs to be documented. Plus the game gives a good mix of sprite and vector graphics, demonstrating one of the advantages of Allegro over e.g. SDL (which doesn't include vector primitives in its software renderer).

Furthermore, if I can quote Elias's demo game page:

http://overandover.no-ip.com/ademo/ said:

Size restriction on the media: I know you'll hate this, but the demo game media should not dominate the Allegro package download. The current demo.dat is 383KB. I think we can go a bit above that, but do try to keep it down.

Vector levels simply give more bang for your kilobyte! At the minute the two dat files associated with the game total about 285kb. The hilly level level is pure ASCII and 50kb (packfile support remains unimplemented because I've used ungetc but I can probably just seek backwards instead). I personally feel that this is a much more diverse demo game in terms of onscreen display, yet the total data size is reduced by around 13% and that's without it all being compressed.

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

Quote:

Not from my point of view. I'm good at general thinking but poor at specifics. For example, with a tilemap I would

Hm, the sentence is cut off now somehow.. :)

Quote:

Whatever level the designer wants to implement with whatever combination of shapes, that remains all that needs to be understood and all that needs to be documented. Plus the game gives a good mix of sprite and vector graphics, demonstrating one of the advantages of Allegro over e.g. SDL (which doesn't include vector primitives in its software renderer).

Very interesting point. I was mainly seeing it as a good way to show off the advantages for post 4.2.0 when the same demo can then get all HW accelerated (hopefully). Since for 4.2.0, the only HW accelerated part will be blit/draw_sprite. But now, it's true, it shows much more of the 4.2.0 (software) capabilities than a pure draw_sprite-using demo.

Quote:

Furthermore, if I can quote Elias's demo game page:

Evert's :)

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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Elias said:

Hm, the sentence is cut off now somehow..

Ah, my habit of hopping about while drafting my posts has backfired due to poor proof reading! Ditto for attributing Evert's webpage to you. If it makes you feel any better, people sometimes call me Thomas Fjellstrom! Allow me to fix my sentence at least:

"Not from my point of view. I'm good at general thinking but poor at specifics. For example, with a tilemap I would..." probably have to do some very hacky stuff with pixel testing and probably attributing normals to pixels 'near' edges in all of my tiles. Given that I personally can't do art I would have to do the appeals for art I always get so stuck with followed by manually going over the submitted pieces with a specialised editor I'd written to insert this information. Total work is greater even if sitting back and thinking "oh, I just copy the bitmaps to the screen" seems prima facie easier than "now how can I use the dot product to get vector collisions" but ends up harder for this sort of game.

Quote:

Since for 4.2.0, the only HW accelerated part will be blit/draw_sprite.

But alas it doesn't use either of those. Possibly only rotate_scale_sprite (or whatever that one is called) and stretch_blit make up the ingame stuff due to the way objects move and the resolution independence.

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

I was wondering about some things, in case there's time left after the rest of the list of things to do..

  • The jump control should be "auto-repeat" for me.. i.e. when I keep the jump key pressed, then I want to jump again as soon as I hit ground. Of course I lose precise timing about my jumps that way, but often I just want to keep jumping madly :)

  • With high friction, the guy runs slower.. maybe there should be a minimal speed he always has? Not sure if it would be hard to do. But while experimenting with different frictions, I found I'd often like to make something with high friction, but the effect should only be reduced sliding, not reduced base speed (even if the artwork is changed to include a skateboard).

  • Will there be multiple levels, or just one huge? I assume your quadtree handles one huge level just fine.. but somehow I like having multiple levels..

Oh, and attached is a sligtly updated blender exporter again - now you can add a property "top" to a mesh object, and it will only have edges on the top then. Great for making classic-style platforms.. I actually like your level format more and more :)

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

Peter Wang
Member #23
April 2000

I'm amazed you guys can do development like this. I can't even find where to download the latest version.

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

You can't.. only Thomas has it, and I have a version from sometime yesterday. Anyone has an SVN or CVS server to put this to?

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

Goodbytes
Member #448
June 2000
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Sourceforge has a CVS server...


--
~Goodbytes

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

Only Allegro developers have write access to it though.. unless you mean opening a new project, in which case I wouldn't use SF but one of the alternatives who have SVN. All require writing a project description though and 24 or 48 hours (with SF probably even longer) before it is approved..

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

Goodbytes
Member #448
June 2000
avatar

I was suggesting opening a new project... and as regards to waiting times, the three projects I have registered on sourceforge all got approved in about a day; the last of these projects, however, was registered at least two years ago, so it may no longer be as fast as it used to be.

What 'alternatives' have SVN?

[EDIT] It seems like a good system... out of curiosity, is it easy to use from different operating systems? With TortoiseCVS on Windows, I can do a CVS commit and update from Windows Explorer with a pair of clicks from the mouse ;)


--
~Goodbytes

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

berlios.de gives you SVN. Not sure about savannah. Hm, and there was one other SF like site..

There's TortoiseSVN. SVN is just like CVS, but has some bugs of CVS removed. You can e.g. move/rename files, and you can delete/move/rename folders. Also, you can make patches without a network connection (over my dialup, a patch against allegro._tx takes like a minute, and a complete cvs diff allegro is almost impossible. With SVN, both take 1 second :) And under unix, svn has better commands than cvs, e.g. "svn status" will print a line for each file, telling its status.

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

Jakub Wasilewski
Member #3,653
June 2003
avatar

I had too look up "deluge" in the dictionary to find out what the exams actually did to me, according to TH. It proved to be a word very descriptive of my situation back then ;). My creativity got a bit dampened...

But now, the exams are over, and my grades turned out to be quite satisfactory (4.84 on scale 2 to 5), so I had a nice boost and could get back to work, both on my own projects and on this one (does it have a name apart from Allegro Demo yet?).

Attached are the frames for the skater. The first four are - small speed, more speed, great speed/falling/braking, standing still. The other three are there to illustrate how big my problems are when I try to get the "pushing off" animation right. That's my second stab at it, and he still looks like a victim of a mischievous chiropractor. I can't find any image or movie reference to base my pixelling on. I even tried installing THPS4 just to take a peek at the animation, and to my great surprise, I found that the skater is never pushing off - he just crouches a little, and the skateboard magically starts rolling. Maybe we could do this too, that would save me some trial&error? :D

I'm also not entirely happy with the end-level door, but at least you can tell what it is...

Hope you weren't too annoyed by the delay.

Also, I would suggest changing the color of the sky. The one you chose is pretty dark, and while it suits the rain theme well, it just doesn't look too good, and the sprites were made to appear better on light backgrounds.

---------------------------
[ ChristmasHack! | My games ] :::: One CSS to style them all, One Javascript to script them, / One HTML to bring them all and in the browser bind them / In the Land of Fantasy where Standards mean something.

Richard Phipps
Member #1,632
November 2001
avatar

I like both the door and the skater. Nice work! :)

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
avatar

Quote:

The jump control should be "auto-repeat" for me.. i.e. when I keep the jump key pressed, then I want to jump again as soon as I hit ground. Of course I lose precise timing about my jumps that way, but often I just want to keep jumping madly :)

Okay, I'll change that.

Quote:

With high friction, the guy runs slower.. maybe there should be a minimal speed he always has? Not sure if it would be hard to do. But while experimenting with different frictions, I found I'd often like to make something with high friction, but the effect should only be reduced sliding, not reduced base speed (even if the artwork is changed to include a skateboard).

I see what you mean. While he is pushing, he should be just as capable at pushing and with rolling resistance drag isn't quite as I've implemented it.

Quote:

Will there be multiple levels, or just one huge? I assume your quadtree handles one huge level just fine.. but somehow I like having multiple levels..

I was going to have one mediumly sized level. It's only meant to be the demo game after all - and how long have you ever spent with the demo game?

Quote:

But now, the exams are over, and my grades turned out to be quite satisfactory (4.84 on scale 2 to 5), so I had a nice boost and could get back to work, both on my own projects and on this one (does it have a name apart from Allegro Demo yet?).

No better name, and if it acquires one then we'll either have to ask Miran nicely to fill in more of the font used to display the name (and 'Allegro 4.2.0' in the intro) or else draw a title screen logo!

Quote:

Also, I would suggest changing the color of the sky. The one you chose is pretty dark, and while it suits the rain theme well, it just doesn't look too good, and the sprites were made to appear better on light backgrounds.

Oh, yeah, it was chosen based on the colour at the back end of the water. So I'm not really sure what to do about all of that.

While I'm here, can anyone help with any wave sort of noises?

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

Quote:

I was going to have one mediumly sized level. It's only meant to be the demo game after all - and how long have you ever spent with the demo game?

The current demo? You probably wouldn't believe.. :) But yes, it's just the demo game, so probably no need for lots of levels. OTOH, I would see no problem with it - but then, who knows if anyone besides me knows enough Blender to make one :|

Quote:

No better name, and if it acquires one then we'll either have to ask Miran nicely to fill in more of the font used to display the name (and 'Allegro 4.2.0' in the intro) or else draw a title screen logo!

Well, does it need a better name? I'm wondering though, maybe this should be developed on after(if?) it was put into Allegro's CVS. The current demo also changed somewhat compared to the 3.12 version (rapid fire, multiple lives, ...). Could give interested "collaborateurs" CVS access I guess..

Hm, about the font, thanks._tx contains some characters outside the 7-bit ASCII.. can whoever created the font add the same chars as in the Allegro font (0x20-0x7f, 0xa1-0xff, 0x100-0x17f, 0x20ac)? This would be good as demo to show how to use non-ASCII characters with a custom bitmap font..

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

miran
Member #2,407
June 2002

Quote:

No better name, and if it acquires one then we'll either have to ask Miran nicely to fill in more of the font used to display the name (and 'Allegro 4.2.0' in the intro) or else draw a title screen logo!

Attached is the full font with all ASCII characters. In the "release version" I removed the unused ones because of size reasons...

Quote:

Hm, about the font, thanks._tx contains some characters outside the 7-bit ASCII.. can whoever created the font add the same chars as in the Allegro font (0x20-0x7f, 0xa1-0xff, 0x100-0x17f, 0x20ac)? This would be good as demo to show how to use non-ASCII characters with a custom bitmap font..

You're welcome to replace it with something better. Same goes for all data I put in. It was all supposed to be temporary until I would come up with something better. The main font is just some random free TTF converted to PCX with my font editor...

Quote:

Will there be multiple levels, or just one huge?

My suggestion: Make it easy for people to make their own levels and plug them in the game, and see how many add-ons popup over time...

--
sig used to be here

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
avatar

Quote:

My suggestion: Make it easy for people to make their own levels and plug them in the game, and see how many add-ons popup over time...

Okay, this is what I propose - instead of the level file being called 'level.txt' it shall become level001.txt. Upon completion of level001.txt, the game shall look for level002.txt and if it finds it, move the player on into that level, etc. The first time it doesn't find a level file it will display the success message.

Given the time constraints here (6... more... days...) I think that's all that can really be offered!

Quote:

Attached is the full font with all ASCII characters. In the "release version" I removed the unused ones because of size reasons...

Yeah, I noticed. I've actually cut all the unused characters to single columns and imported into a datafile now, producing a further storage size decrease.

Quote:

Attached are the frames for the skater.

Excellent. I'll go about integrating them now.

Besides that, all known issues are fixed (including friction and 'continue game' messing with collected objects) bar joypad support and I've added some sound effects but still want to find some more. Code neatening has begun, in particular physics.c now holds all (~270 lines) of the physics code and I've begun documenting it.

I've made incredibly tiny changes to level.txt to reflect the fix to friction and to put some chocolate bars in besides the current oranges. I'm not sure why I picked that of the five objects currently in the datafile, but I only have two collection noises right now. I've used stuff from bhwavs.tar.gz so I hope the copyright on this turned out to be compatible?

EDIT: for the avoidance of doubt, the following graphics are included in the datafile at present for potential use as world objects:

bananas
cherries
icecream
orange
sweet

The following is about to be added:

exitsign

And the included sounds are:

pop
ding

Johan Peitz
Member #9
April 2000
avatar

Quote:

The jump control should be "auto-repeat" for me.. i.e. when I keep the jump key pressed, then I want to jump again as soon as I hit ground. Of course I lose precise timing about my jumps that way, but often I just want to keep jumping madly
---
Okay, I'll change that.

Personally I think most people would like to have it so that you have to repress it. If you want to jump right away, repress while in air.

Please at least have it as an option. I can guarantee that a lot of people will comment on it otherwise. It's one of those things you never hear the end of it. (I mean look at me go. :p )

Otherwise, keep up the good work!

--
johan peitz :: things I made

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
avatar

Quote:

Otherwise, keep up the good work!

...and the note so good work...

With respect to the file I just uploaded, you temporarily cannot finish the level as attempts to enter the 'door' (still on the old graphic so not really much of a door) fail. That's because I'd commented out line 383 of Game.c temporarily for debugging purposes. Sorry!

On the plus side, this is related to an issue I fixed that I neglected to mention: collision detection with objects at resolutions greater than [640/720]x480 was not working!

Anyway, back to making this a skateboarding man!

Jakub Wasilewski
Member #3,653
June 2003
avatar

Just played the latest one. GCC complains about "no newline at end of file" in Animation.h. Also, all the controls for the game are "none" by default. Maybe preselecting left, right, space would be a better choice?

One issue with level design. There simply has to be more fruit! :) Put like five, ten in a group, and not only after jumps, also along the ground... It'll be more fun that way, at least I think so.

What about the exit door that I attached together with the skater? Is it alright, or wrong in some way?

Also, if I could convince you to change the sky to some less ugly (:P) color, I could redraw the clouds to look more, well, cloudlike. I suggest RGB(110, 212, 255), that's what I use for background ;).

---------------------------
[ ChristmasHack! | My games ] :::: One CSS to style them all, One Javascript to script them, / One HTML to bring them all and in the browser bind them / In the Land of Fantasy where Standards mean something.

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
avatar

If you want me to use a better background colour and hence better clouds then I'll need a water texture that doesn't look odd against that colour! That's really the only reason I changed it.

The skater and door are good, I just had internet issues for most of the afternoon and Firefox is very weird about attachments on allegro.cc (dragging an image from the window and depositing it on my web page causes a local copy to be made of the image for every other webpage but for allegro.cc's view inline php thing it produces a 4kb file that doesn't seem useful for anything) so that I frequently fail to download them.

I've just chopped all the pieces out a second ago and put the door in because that change is easy. Now I'm going to put the skater in. I guess he'll have to stand up every so often even when travelling fast so that he can push himself along with his foot, but more on this when it is implemented and looking nice!

Jakub Wasilewski
Member #3,653
June 2003
avatar

TH said:

If you want me to use a better background colour and hence better clouds then I'll need a water texture that doesn't look odd against that colour! That's really the only reason I changed it.

No need for exclamation marks, just try the new textures (attached) and tell me what you think ;). And this time, if something needs improving, please say so :P.

EDIT:
When doing the first texture, I didn't have any idea how it will be used by the game. Hence, I included perspective myself (which was totally unnecessary, as it turned out), and shaded the colours as if it was to be used as a 2d tile. Due to perspective (and the fact that you flipped the image vertically :)), some features were distorted or lost, so the the texture looked a bit crappy. The new one also has issues (griddiness), I'll try to iron them out later this evening.

---------------------------
[ ChristmasHack! | My games ] :::: One CSS to style them all, One Javascript to script them, / One HTML to bring them all and in the browser bind them / In the Land of Fantasy where Standards mean something.

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
avatar

Quote:

No need for exclamation marks, just try the new textures (attached) and tell me what you think

I've put them in the game engine so that we can all see. The texels on this water texture are much more obvious, but it doesn't matter so much now that there is actually a level in the way. The clouds unfortunately don't look great with the sprite scaling I presently have going on so I need to look into that.

I'm also going to work a bit more on when various skateboarder animations are triggered.

Overally, good artwork - I just think I could be using it better programatically!

EDIT: Elias, I've played with friction, etc, a bit more so that even without coding errors the effect is similar to how it was before. Check out the tweaked values in level.txt. I also added sound effects to the various objects.

In a more general note, I've done something about the way the scrolling would leave the player with only 1/4 of the screen as 'ahead' view when travelling quickly.

Jakub Wasilewski
Member #3,653
June 2003
avatar

You forgot to include thanks._tx in the last package (crashes).

I think the clouds don't look that bad. We could benefit from including more varieties of them (though that could hurt the size of the package, I guess).

The new level is fantastic compared to the previous one. I actually had fun playing this one, and took some time to finish it. I think that Allegro will benefit from a demo game that is actually fun to beat :). And now that the guy actually has a skateboard, his movement actually makes sense.

About the animation - maybe adding some sort of delay when changing from one state to another would solve the flickering problem? As in the guy has to be airborne for at least 0.1 sec to have his frame changed to "mid-air" and so on... As for the pushing-off, I need to force myself to work on that frames more. The way it is now, he doesn't seem to put any effort into it...

---------------------------
[ ChristmasHack! | My games ] :::: One CSS to style them all, One Javascript to script them, / One HTML to bring them all and in the browser bind them / In the Land of Fantasy where Standards mean something.

Peter Wang
Member #23
April 2000

From someone who's only just seen it running now, it really looks fantastic!

I found a bug. When you change update methods, then enter the game, then go back to the menu, the menu graphics are wrong (a level texture appears where the dialogue boxes are) followed by a segfault if you try to reenter the game.



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