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Stop designing games! Or you will be a criminals.
Rick
Member #3,572
June 2003
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Greed runs America... what else do you expect.

I laughed out loud on this one. The entire planet runs on Greed my friend. To be greedy, is to be human.

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Actually I think I'm a tad ugly, but some women disagree, mostly Asians for some reason.

Sepiroth
Member #5,846
May 2005
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I wonder how you can define greed? If there are 4 apples and I eat 3, is that greedy? Or is it greedy if I eat 1? And where the hell am I?

Rick
Member #3,572
June 2003
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If there are 4 apples and I eat 3, is that greedy?

Only if move than 1 other person wanted at least 1 apple, then yes.

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Or is it greedy if I eat 1?

Only if you were totally full and 4 others were starving.

I think it's on a situation basis.

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Actually I think I'm a tad ugly, but some women disagree, mostly Asians for some reason.

Neil Walker
Member #210
April 2000
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I wonder how you can define greed?

I would class it as having 6% of the population yet use up 45% of the earths resources and emit 40% of greenhouse gases. And not signing up to the kyoto agreement because it would affect big businesses and the US power base, despite it causing catastrophic effects on the future of the earth.

Neil.

Neil.
MAME Cabinet Blog / AXL LIBRARY (a games framework) / AXL Documentation and Tutorial

wii:0356-1384-6687-2022, kart:3308-4806-6002. XBOX:chucklepie

Rick
Member #3,572
June 2003
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Developed countries such as the United States, with only 25 percent of the world's population, are responsible for more than 75 percent of the accumulated greenhouse gas pollution in the atmosphere to date.

Let's get the facts straight first. ;)

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Nearly half the population of India lives on less than $1 per day; the death rate of Indian children under 5 years is 13 times higher than in the United States; the average person in Indian uses less electricity in a year than the average American uses every two weeks.

I don't want to live like India or China. Is that greed? Maybe. But like I said, we all have greed.

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Actually I think I'm a tad ugly, but some women disagree, mostly Asians for some reason.

NyanKoneko
Member #5,617
March 2005
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Well... part of the reason Americans consume so many resources and pollute as much as they do is that they have no reasonable alternatives. The USA is a very big place, and increadibly spread out. As such, public transportation is really horrible, so everyone has a car. I think American's eat too much though. ;D

Kanzure
Member #3,669
July 2003
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We do have reasonable alternatives. If you are willing to listen to me, or other people, I can explain some ideas that can ... help. ;)

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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We do have reasonable alternatives.

Of cource you do.

Only problem is americans don't like to use them a lot(like planes&cars instead of trains&buses).

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Kanzure
Member #3,669
July 2003
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No, I mean even more reasonable.
Our problems with inefficiencies aren't going to be fixed by a few new types of vehicles. I believe it's the mindset of the people involved with the structure of the countries that needs to be changed (for the good of the people, not for the good of the country).

Rick
Member #3,572
June 2003
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I would use a bus, but the bus station from where I live is 2 miles away. Then when it drops me off, my work is 3 miles away. Walking is out of the question since it would take me probably 12 minutes a mile. That would be an extra hour I would have to wake up. I already wake up at 5:30 AM. That time is just for the walk. Taking the bus takes longer, as you will have more stops. It takes me 30 minutes to get to work in my car. The bus might add another 15/30 minutes to that. So I would have to wake up around 4:00 AM each morning to get to work on time, and be sweaty on top of that from the walk on hot days. Then if it's raining forget about it. Oh I also forgot to mention that 9 months a year it's snowing here. What then? The choice is an easy one.

You might say get a job closer to your work. It's not always that easy.

Kanzure, I hope you aren't talking about "IT"

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Actually I think I'm a tad ugly, but some women disagree, mostly Asians for some reason.

marcin
Member #5,814
May 2005

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**********************************
"2014" G. Orwell.

or next part of "South Park"...
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...
...
...

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Marcin, I don't want to offend you or anything, but are you insane?

...insane or from al-qaeda. You know better that everybody can be...

Did you read "1984" or see one part of "South Park" ?

:D ;) ;D

Kanzure
Member #3,669
July 2003
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Kanzure, I hope you aren't talking about "IT"

I don't know what "IT" is. Unless it's Industrial Technologoy, but even then, I was not reffering to that.

Rick, your problems are a result of more "severe" problems. The land is owned by the people, not the state/government (which would be the people, but acting for the good of all (theoretically)), and since some person owns the land, you are forced to live farther away from some optimal space. Or maybe I don't know your specific situation, but, for example, I have some hill country like area to drive through to get to anywhere useful. The people aren't using the land at all, requiring many drivers to spend money on gasoline to take insane routes around land segments and so on. Bad example for my cause (perhaps).

marcin
Member #5,814
May 2005

STOP. THAT'S ENOUGH

WE ARE IN:

G A M E D E S I G N & C O N C E P T S ...

;D

Rick
Member #3,572
June 2003
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"IT" is a South Park reference. It was Mr. Garrison's solution to the airport problems. A new vehicle that is, uhh, uncomfortable.

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Actually I think I'm a tad ugly, but some women disagree, mostly Asians for some reason.

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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I laughed out loud on this one. The entire planet runs on Greed my friend. To be greedy, is to be human.

"Man is good, mankind is evil."
The key to understanding this is the "Problem of the Commons". In a nutshell, it goes like this: Imagine you have 10 farmers using a piece of common land together to keep their sheep, each of them with the freedom to keep as many sheep as they want. Of course, when the land gets overpopulated, the sheep will not have enough food and grow less quickly, so it's desirable that there be not too many of them. The part where it becomes a problem starts when you find the perfect profit algorithm for an individual farmer. It goes like this:
1) Adding a sheep to my flock will increase my personal profit by 1 sheep.
2) Overpopulation by 1 sheep will decrease my personal profit by 0.1 sheep.
3) If I add a sheep to my flock, my profit will be at least 1 - 0.1 = 0.9 sheep.
So regardless of the number of sheep already there, the best thing to do in all scenario's is to add one sheep (read: use more resources). More generally, the total profit is 1 - 1/n where n is the number of parties sharing the resource. This is why communism only works for very small groups: where n == 2, for example, the profit is only 0.5, while at n == 10^9, the profit is almost 1. Which comes down to "whoever takes the most resources wins". Which is exactly what happens in capitalist societies, as well as world trade, although the connection is less obvious. And this is also why I believe technology alone can never be the solution to our economic and social problems.

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Me make music: Triofobie
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"We need Tobias and his awesome trombone, too." - Johan Halmén

Kanzure
Member #3,669
July 2003
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Tobias, why do you presume that profit is the goal of life (and more specifically, the goal for communism societies)?

Richard Phipps
Member #1,632
November 2001
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We have many of the same social structures and conflicts in the animal world (i.e. alpha males, leadership challenges internally and externally). So I'd say that our societies all will follow this model until we change our DNA.

Rick
Member #3,572
June 2003
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Tobias, why do you presume that profit is the goal of life

Everyone's "goal" in life is different. I don't think he thinks profit is the "goal", it's just something everyone wants. Everyone want some sort of profit. It should be money, more sheep, or more education. Yes, even wanting more and more education could be seen as greedy. Look at some people here that have been in college for 5+ years. This is a form of greed. Most of them are getting their education for very cheap or free. Yet NOTHING is for free. I would call them greedy. They would say it's something that is there for the taking. Well so is money. If Microsoft can charge $100/hr for phone support they will do it. If someone can get free education they will do it. This is all greed, and a person is greedy.

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Actually I think I'm a tad ugly, but some women disagree, mostly Asians for some reason.

Mandrake Root Produc
Member #300
April 2000

Hrm. I thought all of the failed attempts at communism would lead people to realize that it's flawed in nature. Especially since communistic societies still need to trade with the world at large, and will need money to do so.

Kanzure
Member #3,669
July 2003
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Everyone's "goal" in life is different.

There's arguments for both sides to that.

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I don't think he thinks profit is the "goal", it's just something everyone wants.

In that example.
In life, profit is most likely not the goal.
I'm more confident in my generalized goal: The goal is to find the goal of life. (The best way to do this, currently, is to seek out more goals and studying what's involved and moving onward.)
(Although a person's goal can vary accordingly. It's best if a person's goal relates to an overall goal. For example, some people devote their life to the FSF and GNU project.. sort of.)

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This is all greed, and a person is greedy.

Because of the current systems and societies.. there are some very (very) small tribes inwhich there are people without greed. Unfortunately this is like the sheep example - the whole system works only on a small number of people. When you have a large group of people, knowledge is shared, which leads to greed among those that can use the knowledge to get something they want, based off of their emotions.. Emotions should be used as a tool, not as a thought process. Greed (and other various emotions) should not be guiding a person.

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Hrm. I thought all of the failed attempts at communism would lead people to realize that it's flawed in nature. Especially since communistic societies still need to trade with the world at large, and will need money to do so.

I think you have been misinformed about communism. :)
The "communal societies" would trade with resources and products. The government would have $100 USD (heh, hopefully more). When they need to import a foreign product, the money can be used to pay for it. Internally, there's some sort of credit system to give "money" to people to buy unneccessary items (the idea is that the government keeps productive people alive. A happy worker is a productive worker; Give the worker "credits" ("money") to pay for entertainment, more food, etc.)

The failed attempts at communism? Do take a look at the other factors involved with each attempt.

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No-one spends their life working for the good their country

Nobody spends their life working for their home, their community, and themselves? Hm. What the heck are we doing? ;)

Myrdos
Member #1,772
December 2001

Life is a never ending battle between laziness and greed. They're the two fundamental human constants. No-one spends their life working for the good of their country, except for a few mentally ill people.

Back OT, a lot of these patents are very easy to get, but they're also not worth very much. There's a reason you don't get sued for using tab to select elements in a GUI, even though its patented. Not because they're being merciful, but because the patent is most likely unenforceable. Bringing it to court costs money, brings negative publicity, and gets you nowhere.

They're still useful though. You can threaten poor people with lawsuits, and use them to defend yourself against lawsuits from other companies. If you get enough junk patents together they start to form a critical mass. You can bet at least ONE of them will stand up in court if push comes to shove.

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Rick
Member #3,572
June 2003
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there are some very (very) small tribes inwhich there are people without greed.

I don't think this would be true. Their greed may not be as noticeable to us, but I'm willing to bet they have it.

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Actually I think I'm a tad ugly, but some women disagree, mostly Asians for some reason.

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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Tobias, why do you presume that profit is the goal of life (and more specifically, the goal for communism societies)?

I'm not. But it is the main factor in capitalist and capitalistoid (that a word?) societies like ours. Everybody, however, no matter what kind of society they live in, relies on a basic supply of resources (food, shelter, your basic needs really), and most people try to make their lives as 'easy' and 'comfortable' as possible, which generally requires more resources. Capitalism takes this general observation and generalizes it to 'more goods == more happiness', which implies 'money == goods == happiness', which in turn leads to the assumption that anything can be expressed as a sum of money.
Back to the Commons Problem, let's assume there are two possible kinds of philosophies: the Social Thinker (S) and the Egoist Thinker (E). E pretty much lives by capitalist rules and therefor follows the 'perfect profit' algorithm, adding as many sheep to his flock as he possibly can. S, on the other hand, will only ever take as many sheep as his share of the commons can handle. Now if the whole group is of type S, then everything will be fine; each farmer has exactly the right amount of sheep (enough to survive), and the system remains stable (provided the commons offer enough resources to support all farmers).
But if there is only one single type E farmer, then the whole system is bound to collapse; there will be more sheep than the grounds can handle, therefor everybody's profit will decrease. At a certain point, the S-farmers' profit will drop below the minimum they need to survive, forcing them to act as E farmers as well. Of course, this will only make the problem worse, and at some point, there will be farmers who cannot survive on their flock. Those farmers will either starve, or leave the town or otherwise disappear from the scene (bankrupt). In effect, wealth is automatically spread unequally, up to the point that there are only one or two farmers left. Only then can the system regain stability, but the outcome is an absolute monopoly, and chances are resources are exhausted before this stadium is reached.
This is another reason why self-regulating communal or communist systems only work for small groups: the larger the group, the greater the chances are that there is at least one E-type member.
Which leads me to the following conclusions:
- Free market is not the answer, but the problem.
- We need sort of a limit to personal income / wealth, say, 500x the average salary (sic!)
- We need to find a balance of the good things in capitalism (innovation, general wealth) and the bad things (above problems). This is IMO closely intertwined with democracy in theory and practise.

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Me make music: Triofobie
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"We need Tobias and his awesome trombone, too." - Johan Halmén

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Tobias' assesment is spot on: a situation where everyone cooperates is not a stable equlibrium.
People (I say people, but it works quite well for animals and other entities too) try to gain as much as they can with as little effort as possible: the more energy you have to spare to do other things, the better.

What happens is that people play `prisoner's dilemma' with each other: you can either choose to cooperate, or you can cheat. Now, if two people cooperate they will both benefit. However, if one of them cheated, he would spend less effort and still get all the benefit: he wins more and does better - the tactic will spread because it pays to cheat. Now, if everyone cheats, then no one will really benefit, but the losses aren't so large as they would have been if you had been trying to cooperate and been cheated by someone else.
In the long term, people benefit from mutual cooperation, but in the short term being selfish has a higher average profit. Since most people go for `short term'... well, you get the idea.

There are subtleties that this crude and simple model does not take into consideration, but it quite adequately describes many aspects of human culture and behavior.
Now that I'm on the subject, the study of this field is the branch of mathematics called `game theory'. Does anyone know any good books on the subject? I've looked around a bit and what I could find was for the most part too... erhm... non-technical, if you see what I mean.

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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Yeah, but my point is: Unlike most other entities, humans have the ability to evaluate their own behaviour (like we just did). Doing so, we can draw the conclusion that our "normal" behaviour is undesirable in the long run, and that in order to achieve a stable system, we must establish some sort of control mechanism to prevent the unstable scenario described above. Democracy has failed to do so, although I'm unsure whether this has happened because immanent flaws of the general idea of Democracy, or whether it's because of the bad implementations and / or practical problems.
Communism, in theory, is a beautiful solution. Unfortunately, it requires each and every member of such a society to be a true communist ("type S farmer"). In reality, so-called communist systems have found the need to establish rather harsh control mechanisms to ensure everybody is a "true communist". Ironically, this always results in a totalitarian system, the perfect opposite of communism (although this scenario is generally referred to as communism today; just look at Cuba or China).
A monarchy (or dictatorship) is a similar solution; if the sovereign is a social thinker and doesn't take more than he needs, yet carefully guards the equilibrum by spreading the resources evenly, the system works. The problem is that the sovereign is also human, and the whole monarchy system makes it especially easy (and therefor tempting) for the monarch to abuse his position, resulting in the same old dilemma - only that now the monarch is the E type farmer.
Then there's anarchy - but that's the per-definitionem starting point of the Commons Problem.
So there's no perfect solution, really.

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Me make music: Triofobie
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"We need Tobias and his awesome trombone, too." - Johan Halmén



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