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LIB SDL and ClanLIB
Gnatinator
Member #2,330
May 2002
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I've been wondering about this for a long time.
Why do SDL and ClanLIB games look so much better visually then Allegro games?

Is there like some sort of built-in Anti-aliasing and Alpha blending engine?

PROOF (SDL):
[url http://www.podvlivem.net/glx/?lang=eng]
[url http://www.2dgame-tutorial.com/sdl/asteroids/asteroids.htm]
[url http://www.pompom.org.uk/mutantstorm.htm]
[url http://onsight.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html]

PROOF (ClanLIB):
[url http://clanlib.org/~sphair/gfx/doctorc++.jpg]
[url http://clanlib.org/~sphair/gfx/feuerkraft.jpg]
[url http://clanlib.org/~sphair/gfx/overload.jpg]

Seriously, these screenies look better then most of the games on our depot.

How can I get results like (or better than) this with Allegro?

EDIT: And please dont let this generate into a flame war. I REALLY WANT TO KNOW.

spellcaster
Member #1,493
September 2001
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Chances are that these libs use 3d hardware - so yep, they'll get HW antialiasing - if the card supports it.

Use allegrogl to get the same effect.

Another option would be, that these games are hires, or simply have better artists :)

--
There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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The answer is: You can. You just need good artists. Good graphics is not a feature of a particular library; with AllegroGL and some skilled artists, you can have this and much better.

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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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If I used LibSDL and ClanLib, my games would look no better. The look of the game depends on:

  • 3D vs 2D,

  • Font Rendering (Bitmaps vs TrueType, etc), and furthermore

  • The talent of the artists.

I don't see that as a big discussion point. To me, the better question is, "Why are the programmers who use those libs able to find better artists?"

That question (as with the original) both assumes that your belief that libSDL and ClanLib games look better than Allegro games is valid.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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The way I figure it is:

There are more people using SDL. Therefor, there is a higher chance of someone putting real work into a game. There are quite a few (read: tons) of crappy SDL games. It's just that there are more, so it seems like it's better.

Just like the playstation 2. It has more developers, so it has a higher chance of actually producing a few good games every year than the xbox/gamecube.

[edit]

Also, anyone remember the Head Over Heels game done with Allegro? That was of professional quality (since it was done by professionals). Which proves that Allegro can be used to make high-quality games.

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FrankyR
Member #243
April 2000
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I agree with Chris on the point. It just makes sense that a library with a larger user base will have a greater chance of producing more excellent games.

lillo
Member #303
April 2000
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The gfx quality of a game does not depend on the game library used, but on the skills of the gfx artists who worked on the game, period.
As for Allegro games having great gfx, have a look also at the following depot entries:

  • Icy Tower

  • XOP

  • Fenix Blade

  • Happyland Adventure, X'mas Edition

  • ...there are more, just look around carefully. Being Allegro a niche game library, it is not a surprise there aren't many good looking games; few coders == even fewer good artists.

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    Angelo Mottola
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    Gnatinator
    Member #2,330
    May 2002
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    Sounds good.

    Are there any 2D antialiasing libs for Allegro, that also maybe do alpha that any of you reccomend? (In 16-bit color or higher)

    X-G
    Member #856
    December 2000
    avatar

    AllegroGL is your friend.

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    Gnatinator
    Member #2,330
    May 2002
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    Anything not requiring a 3D accelerator?

    spellcaster
    Member #1,493
    September 2001
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    I'd say the main reason is that those people actually code, instead of picking their noses and posting in off-topic ordeals.
    Another reason might be that they are trying to code for todays hardware ;)

    --
    There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.

    Bob
    Free Market Evangelist
    September 2000
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    I guess I should get off my lazy butt and fix AllegroGL so that Windows users can use multiplatform gangbanging? ;D

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    - Bob
    [ -- All my signature links are 404 -- ]

    Gnatinator
    Member #2,330
    May 2002
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    Quote:

    It just makes sense that a library with a larger user base will have a greater chance of producing more excellent games.

    Hey wait a minute. ClanLIB has a much smaller user base than Allegro. Yet, many of the games made with the library still look much better.

    Could it just be just much EASIER to implement these flashy graphics in ClanLIB?

    Has anyone here actually used ClanLIB? If so, what did you think of it? Is it easier to implement more modern/complex graphical items?

    Plucky
    Member #1,346
    May 2001
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    Quote:

    Yet, many of the games made with the library still look much better.

    Some evidence would be nice. I haven't seen any spectacular games with clanlib.
    [edit] the example pics for clanlib look rather ordinary. Simple sprites and so forth.

    Quote:

    Could it just be just much EASIER to implement these flashy graphics in ClanLIB?

    Trolling?
    Perhaps you ignored the previous responses about gfx?

    Thomas Fjellstrom
    Member #476
    June 2000
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    And no for something completely different: Ellelator go up, ellelator go down. My ellelator! I push teh button!

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    Richard Phipps
    Member #1,632
    November 2001
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    The Overload game looks very nice. But the rest of them don't look too special.

    But there does seem to be a lack of graphic artists here. Maybe that's the biggest reason besides the fact that most allegro games don't use AllegroGL.

    Korval
    Member #1,538
    September 2001
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    Looks like a POV-Ray job, or some other form of pre-render technology.

    Note that it is not offered for free. Clearly, someone(s) with skill who thinks that their skill is worth something made it.

    Crap. Pure and simple.

    Oh look, someone clearly knows how to use POV-Ray. You, too, can create such wonderful graphics if you knew how to use POV-Ray.

    This is a steaming pile of crap. It may have some "spify" (read: more than some indy-games try, but crappy by any real standards) effects going on, but nothing can erase the total craptasticness of the texture work. Programmer art + "effects".

    Persistence-of-Vision, once again in action. Only this time they used a matte painting they lifted from somewhere for the ground.

    Quote:

    Anything not requiring a 3D accelerator?

    Some of those games require them. Or a modestly fast CPU with good memory bandwidth.

    As for the Allegro community's games... come on. We have debates regularly about whether or not to stray above 320x240, let alone into modern resolutions like 800x600. We have serious debates on whether or not an 8-bit palatte is a good idea. Both of these are an ananthema to modern graphics. Most of the Allegro community is only interested in replicating something SNES-level in terms of visuals. Also, the Allegro community is not very tied into artists. As such, most Allegro games use programmer art. Some of it is good programmer art, but most isn't.

    Of course, SDL (and probably ClanLib) is highly integrated with OpenGL, which opens all kinds of doors in terms of high-performance features. And since Allegro 5 development is quite dead these days, AllegroGL is all we're likely to have in terms of OpenGL. While it is nice, it provides an additional barrier (an additional download and API) between the user and what he/she wants that doesn't need to be there.

    Richard Phipps
    Member #1,632
    November 2001
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    I agree with you Korval regarding the lower resolutions popular with Allegro people. However I found your comments about those games particularly harsh. I'm sure some of those programmers (and us) would have loved to have a really talented artist or musician to work with them. But that's not always possible.

    Plucky
    Member #1,346
    May 2001
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    Thomas said:

    And no for something completely different: Ellelator go up, ellelator go down. My ellelator! I push teh button!

    Pwucky go down the hooole!

    At lest I gawt teh wobber!

    Peter Hull
    Member #1,136
    March 2001

    Allegro, I think, stems from an earlier era. The default bpp is 8, and it has the best support for PCX and BMP, neither of which support transparency. (ok, TGA, but that isn't used often)

    So, although it can do hi-res, true colour blits with transparency, those modes don't seem to get used much.

    Another thing, Allegro is so easy to get started on, maybe a lot of its users are novice/amateur programmers who never progress (ahem, like me...)

    Technically I don't see why SDL/ClanLib games should look better.

    Pete

    Gnatinator
    Member #2,330
    May 2002
    avatar

    Ok, the collection of responses are now satisfactory. ;)

    Quote:

    Trolling?
    Perhaps you ignored the previous responses about gfx?

    What is a trolling?

    Bob
    Free Market Evangelist
    September 2000
    avatar

    Korval said:

    since Allegro 5 development is quite dead these days, AllegroGL is all we're likely to have in terms of OpenGL. While it is nice, it provides an additional barrier (an additional download and API) between the user and what he/she wants that doesn't need to be there.

    Yeah yeah, blame it all on me now. ;D

    --
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    [ -- All my signature links are 404 -- ]

    Fladimir da Gorf
    Member #1,565
    October 2001
    avatar

    Too many people may think that Allegro is a newbie library, and can't even be used to make "real" games... That's a shame. Also, Allegro's alpha blender should be optimized enough to be even slightly useful - now, it's plainly too slow to be used.

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    Billybob
    Member #3,136
    January 2003

    Quote:

    Also, Allegro's alpha blender should be optimized enough to be even slightly useful - now, it's plainly too slow to be used

    Someone needs to merge fblend into allegro. That way we'll have way better Alphabet Soup.

    23yrold3yrold
    Member #1,134
    March 2001
    avatar

    That's for Allegro 5.0, IIRC.

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