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RPG ideas
Joel Pettersson
Member #4,187
January 2004

Quote:

If you use a spell alot, it will level up and become stronger.

Quote:

The problem with doing this is that, if you come to a situation where you need Spell X, but you haven't practiced with it (since you haven't needed it before), you're in trouble. Basically, if it is a fight, you have to die, reload your game, and spend some (boring) time practicing Spell X until it is strong enough to be useful.

Thats not the way I intended it. A spell starts out good enough to be useful once you get it, and then level up as you use it through the game.

The change, however, wont be that big. Think of the levels as fine-tuning of the spells. You dont have one fire spell that you level up through the game, you have 3.

Each of them can level up and become stronger, but the first fire spell at level 10 (max) aint stronger than the second at level 1.

Then differnt spells of the same category will have different characteristics...

Blade Nick
Member #1,597
October 2001
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Heres an idea instead of unsin fire against fire if thats all you have in turms of spells, why not use melle attacks... Give both spell levels and character levels as gaining xp, so that the character and become more dexterious and gain strength to use better weapons to attack the npc's.

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X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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Because characters with high magic tend not to be as good at melee combat. Specialization, again.

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Richard Phipps
Member #1,632
November 2001
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Hmm.. One possibility is to add some kind of stamina value to each element. So every time you cast fire it does less and less damage while other elements stamina would return to normal.

This would mean the player would have to switch to using other elements ingame to recover stamina and thus level up more than one element.

Somewhat restrictive, but it could lead to some interesting battles. :)

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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And would make the ice cavern impossible to complete, because you'd run out of "fire" stamina really soon. ;)

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Richard Phipps
Member #1,632
November 2001
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Nope, you'd switch to Earth for a while which would also do damage (just not as much as full fire).

:P

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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And how fun would that be? Remember, we're trying to maximize fun, not force the player to do sub-optimal things for the sake of balance. He won't enjoy that.

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Richard Phipps
Member #1,632
November 2001
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I disagree. Casting the same spell over and over again gets boring very quickly for me personally. I would prefer a system where I had to be more involved with trying to cast the best spell each time by varying the spells I cast and anticipating casting a more powerful spell in x turns.

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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Really? For me it'd be more like, "Damn, my fire spells are too low now. Great, that means I have to cast five thousand Earth spells instead and wear THEM out, and I won't be able to kill anything as quickly any more. This game sucks."

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Since 2008-Jun-18, democracy in Sweden is dead. | 悪霊退散!悪霊退散!怨霊、物の怪、困った時は ドーマン!セーマン!ドーマン!セーマン! 直ぐに呼びましょう陰陽師レッツゴー!

Richard Phipps
Member #1,632
November 2001
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Personally I'd prefer that to, "Hey! This is great I can cast five thousand fire spells and kill everything with only one spell. I'm a great RPG player!"

;)

These are all theories, what we really need is a simple RPG battle engine to test these ideas out in. That would be a good way to judge the advantages and disadvantages of each idea.

Anyone up for making a quick and simple battle engine though? :-*

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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Seems you know how to sell games! ;)

As for making a battle engine - sure, if I didn't have seven billion projects going already, PLUS exams this week. :P

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Richard Phipps
Member #1,632
November 2001
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There is surely someone here with time on their hands to do a quick battle engine. Heck even one on the speedhack entries was a RPG with a battle engine..

Krzysztof Kluczek
Member #4,191
January 2004
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Maybe I could try doing it? :) How should it look like? ;D

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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FFX-2 style. 3D. ;)

I much prefer ATB style battle engines, btw - the element of time means you have to be more strategic and prepared for battle. :)

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Krzysztof Kluczek
Member #4,191
January 2004
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Well, I`m not very familiar with console RPG`s since I have only PC. Is Final Fantasy: Endless Nova using the same battle system? I found it downloadable so maybe I`d be able to make something similar but customizable of course. :)

spellcaster
Member #1,493
September 2001
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There's one big problem with maxing out one spell category: As soon as you encounter an enemy that is immune to that kind of damage (ice / fire / lightning / whatever) you're doomed.

If you're using just one spell / attack all of the time, the game becomes more like a shooter. That doesn't have to bad, though.
On the other hand, you don't need to wait until you run out of "specific mana" before you cast a spell of another type. Just mix the spells from the beginning. Cast a few fire balls, buff your defense using an earth spell, then continue to cast fireballs.

Quote:

"Damn, my fire spells are too low now. Great, that means I have to cast five thousand Earth spells instead and wear THEM out, and I won't be able to kill anything as quickly any more. This game sucks."

In that case you won't like many games :)
IMO there's no big difference between your example and the general "Oh, I've run out of mana. Now I can't cast any spell at all" and the example Rich proposed. Oh. There's one difference: Using a system like Rich proposed would allow you to continue playing :)

Another thing you need to keep in mind is that you don't start as an eliet wizard with 4000 fire spells ready. At the beginning you won't be able at to cast many spells of any kind.
So you'll get used to the spell switching while playing the game.

Now add some monsters which are immune to one particular spell effect and you'll need to plan your attacks more carefully. Which also allows you to add some nice stone-paper-scissors gameplay elements.

Some time ago I had a similar idea. But I planned to use one mana pool for all spells. Just the mana regeneration rate would vary. So, if you're a fire specialist mana you used for fire spells would refill faster.
My magic-theory behind this was that each player has a certain amount of mana potential which depends on the level of the character. If you cast a spell you create a mana difference between your potential and the elemental plane of the spell.. the more you're in "harmony" with that plane, the faster you can channel the mana back into your body.

I was also planning areas which are less atuned to a certain element. So, casting water spells while you're standing in lava deep inside a vulcane will work - but since the place is more atuned to fire and earth than water, you'll have problems regaining that mana you've just used.

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Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Quote:

In that case you won't like many games

By the sounds of it, X-G hasn't played any RPG's with fire monsters either. ;) Always wants to go all fire.... what game can you do that in, anyways?

SC is absolutely right.
In many games it's not uncommon to fight a battle with more than one elemental monster. Take FFX for example. Fighting a Yellow Element(water) with Ragora(fire) and Lord Ochu(fire) in Kilika... In which case, you'd use both water and fire. Even in places with lots of fire monsters you could throw in non-elementals so that the user could practice up their other spells. You need to give them a chance to do it, but you can't just do it for them like in other systems. To me, that's not fun.

I rather like that idea though, SC... but...
Having spells of that element cost less mana would probably yeild similar results gameplay wise.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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Derezo: I haven't played a single game where you can boost a single type of spell while gimping others - have you? :P

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Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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I've said many times (in other threads) that I played RagnarokOnline.

You gain one skill point to distribute each level. My mage is level 35ish, and he has only 3 elements. Each of which I have balanced out, because I'm no fool. Level 5 Cold Bolt, Level 5 Lightning Bolt, Level 6 Soul Strike.

See? No fire. I can still kill enemies that are weak against it.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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Well, I don't read other threads. ;)

And I never played RO either ...

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Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Read my edit above and you'll probably understand it's skill system.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Ultio
Member #1,336
April 2001

Off-topic; but; did RO drop from beta and is now pay-to-play? How are the servers? Still slow as all hell? Hmm. I know I shouldn't do this and I hate people who do it but you know.

And the solution to this magic problem is to have the person who introduces you to magic say something like "Remember, moderation is the key!" or something else that would warn the player that maxing out a single stat is retarded and will retard your fun-having process later on in the game.

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Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Been pay to play since around May of 2003.
The servers are decent now. They get laggy on Tuesdays after they do maintainence.. but that's about it.

Ultio: We already went over warning the player. X-G still says he should be hand fed. ;)

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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He should, because just being thrown in without warnings and advice is NO FUN FOR THE PLAYER, which is the main priority. :P

Having to level up spells mindlessly is no fun, regardless of whether it's the intelligent thing to do or not. You have to integrate it into the everyday hacking and slashing seamlessly, or the player WILL get bored.

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Ultio
Member #1,336
April 2001

It may not be fun, but I do think it's funny. Easy solution it to make weapons branded with elemental power which can be used to bypass the users magic which is at crappy level. Then again, using a spell on such a higher level monster should level it up dramatically anyways.

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