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RPG ideas
hazul
Member #4,338
February 2004
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I've started making my own roleplaying game as my first c++ / allegro game. I've gotten pretty far imo.. I have made a map/layer2 editor that saves into txt files, and the game system has an ok self-made collision detection, AI enemies etc..

Right now, I'm looking for game ideas and concepts, not specific programming help, so bear with me :)

I haven't decided whether the game should have a main plot or story you follow (FF series) or if it's more individual quest-driven (Daggerfall, Morrowind) with more freedom. By that I mean you can get missions from specific people in the game, and can complete them as you wish with maximal freedom.

Item interaction I'm not sure I know how to code as well as I'd like, so I'll probably limit the types of weapons and armor. ATM the hero has only an attack power and defence power, that depend on the weapon and armor he is wearing at the time. How else could this be done? Should he have some kind of inventory? If so, what kind?

My battles are arranged sort of Zelda-style. No random battles like in the FF's. The hero's hits all land, no missing. Should this be altered? On what would hitting and missing depend? Enemies currently have a min/max damage for each, eg -5 and 7. If the randomized value between -5 and 7 is bigger than 0, it's a hit. E.g. a value 3 would be a hit worth 3 damage. From the base damage, the hero's defence power is substracted, so with a 2 defence power, only 1HP damage will be suffered. Enemies have no such thing atm, but should they?

What do you think of magic, should it be done? If so, how? Learning spells that require mana, scrolls/potions?

Thanks a lot for any ideas/comments/suggestions
Hazul

-- i've attached a screenshot too ;)

* * * * *
"Multiplayer is actually the best way of not programming a good AI" -ReyBrujo

piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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more layers would be nice about 4-5 you mite not need as many because of your spite size layers help with the flashyness of a game

wow
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i am who you are not am i

Krzysztof Kluczek
Member #4,191
January 2004
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As for enemies: I think they should be described with the same stats as player`s characters.
Reasons:
- easier balancing: enemy with the same equipment and stats as player will have 50% chance to win (assuming good AI)
- NPC inventory: if it`s not done at early stage it`s hard to do it later
- enemy can change into player team member without need of recalculating stats (and the other way: member becoming an enemy)
- simpler battle system in case you`d like to go MP or have enemy vs enemy battles: just one attack case (char vs char) instead of three (char vs enemy, enemy vs enemy, char vs char)

piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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NPC inventory::o thats a realy good one
i am also making a rpg i know i will be use the NPC inventory:;D

wow
-------------------------------
i am who you are not am i

Ultio
Member #1,336
April 2001

Quote:

I haven't decided whether the game should have a main plot or story you follow (FF series) or if it's more individual quest-driven (Daggerfall, Morrowind) with more freedom. By that I mean you can get missions from specific people in the game, and can complete them as you wish with maximal freedom.

This is really up to you. I think either way you go, you should decide early on so then you can base the rest of the game off of this decision. This is a big thing to decide and it will affect how your game will operate, feel, be to program, etc. I think this one decision will change a lot of how your game works after you've build the main engine, which you seem to have done. This is one of those questions we can't really help you with. That's something you have to decide on your own because, in fact, it is your game. What were you originally intending to do? I would say go with that unless you have more substantial reasons for picking one style over the other. Maybe that wasn't even a question and you were just stating you don't know which way the game is going to go, but that's ok if I answered anyways, right?:P

Quote:

Item interaction I'm not sure I know how to code as well as I'd like, so I'll probably limit the types of weapons and armor. ATM the hero has only an attack power and defence power, that depend on the weapon and armor he is wearing at the time. How else could this be done? Should he have some kind of inventory? If so, what kind?

Again, this is really up to you whether you want the user to be able to wield more than just armor and a sword. One fun aspect of a good RPG is being able to actually equip your player through any kind of interactive GUI. Sometimes more equipment peices is better, because they allow for more of a "custom" feel to your player; as you get to do all the equipping and use the peices you enjoy to use and think work the best. I think having an inventory would be a really good idea, but that would include more work; like figuring out how many items the player can hold at a time; whether armor/weapons count towards that total number of items. You may also decide that each item the player may have will weigh a certain amount, and the player cannot carry more than their "max weight capacity." This question is very closely tied with your next comment, as your battle system may effect how you want to be able to equip the player.

Quote:

My battles are arranged sort of Zelda-style. No random battles like in the FF's. The hero's hits all land, no missing. Should this be altered? ... Enemies have no such thing atm, but should they?


As was already mentioned, keep the player/enemies the same. If the player's attacks always hit, the enemies attacks should always hit as well (unless there is some kind of "blocking" mechanism the player could use: pressing a key to pull out a sheild, etc).

Quote:

On what would hitting and missing depend? Enemies currently have a min/max damage for each, eg -5 and 7. If the randomized value between -5 and 7 is bigger than 0, it's a hit. E.g. a value 3 would be a hit worth 3 damage. From the base damage, the hero's defence power is substracted, so with a 2 defence power, only 1HP damage will be suffered. ...

I would say hitting and missing should depend on some factors. To me, I believe in your situation, if the enemy hits the player for < 0; that would be considered a 0 Damage hit, since the players armor rating and the damage value of the enemy cancel eachother out. This is really up to speculation and however you want to read it, though. For hitting and missing I would generally think of some kind of stat attribute like Agility, and this stat would determine how probably the cause of dodging and attack would be. For your type of battle system, however, I don't think there should be any missing allowed at all. I think a better idea is to allow the player to wield a shield or some other blocking device which can block the enemie's hits. I think this is more suitable for a real-time combat system where you have to physically walk up to the enemy and be close enough to hit them. If you're not then they miss, right? Same goes for the enemies. If they are close enough and the player physically sees their weapon hit him, it should take damage (even 0, if armor cancels it out). If you really like the idea of hitting/missing, then of course it can be implemented. I think no missing is more suited to a Zelda style combat system, though. Instead of the enemy just missing, the player has to make them miss by moving out of the way, which fits nicer into this style of battling.

Quote:

What do you think of magic, should it be done? If so, how? Learning spells that require mana, scrolls/potions?

This is a tough one. Do you want to put magic into your game? Will it fit effectively into the atmosphere and storyline? It seems like your game looks like it is a fantasy-style game where magic wouldn't have a problem fitting into the overall gameplay. It could be that you're just using those kind of fantasy-feeling graphics and the game may completely change. Also, how effective would being able to use magic be in the game? Will there be enemies that only take damage from magic (or physical)? Will magic casting be effective, or just annoying; so much that the player won't even use it? I, personally, think magic is always fun to have in a game because it gives you a break from repeatedly tapping the attack button on every single enemy you encounter. I think magic would be very useful in a situation where you sneak up on an enemy and just blast it with magic before you engage in melee combat.

I've said a lot so I'll give you some time if you'd like to reply to anything I've said before I write a novel, here. :) I think most of these thing are really up to your decision. This is something you're going to have to spend a lot of time on: developing the actual framework of your game and how all of the rules, and that stuff is going to work. If you like magic, and it makes sense in your game: put it in if you have time. :) [edit]Designing[/edit] is the hardest part. :P

Good luck.
(I love threads like these. I wish there were more);D

---
"It's nice knowing that someday, the software I write will just be pirated by millions of people." :-/
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hazul
Member #4,338
February 2004
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Thanks for some great responses!

First off Mr. Kluczek.. the same stat system for enemies and the player seems like a very good idea... Also it means I need to give an NPC just the equipment, not e.g. an attack value. Also you mentioned team members, that hadn't even come to my mind. I think that's a great idea, like hiring mercenaries etc..

On to Ultio. The plot/mission driving system I haven't decided, I've been working on gfx and gameplay. I'm beginning to think the mission-driven system is better, as I personally like freedom in games. What I'd love is e.g. a possibility to build houses if you have the necessary skill/money :D

After I read your bit about equipment and inventory I saw in the back of my head an image of the inventory screen with slots for equipped pieces or armor, a shield, and a weapon :) so they're definately in. I think i might go for the max weight capacity, defined by your strength stat. And yes, weps/armor should definately count as weight.

So okay, enemies should hit always too. The shield idea you gave is very interesting though, i thought holding up the shield when you're hit would give you a chance of blocking based on your agility stat. Definately better than the current idea.

Sure, magic fits the game atmosphere very well imo, not just sure how to do it. Use some kind of wisdom stat to determine spell success chance? and how do you learn spells, at levels like DnD or some other way?

Thanks again for all your ideas :D

* * * * *
"Multiplayer is actually the best way of not programming a good AI" -ReyBrujo

Krzysztof Kluczek
Member #4,191
January 2004
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Assigning mimimal caster level to a spell is good idea IMHO. :) It also helps balancing the game (low level PC can`t get most destructive spells).

And for spell casting cost: mana is the best way IMHO. You could also implement colorful mana system with more types of mana (eg. element-based, etc). A spell can also require more than one type of mana.

I also think that player should have a main quest in the game as well as large number of side quests. The main quest of course don`t have to be known at the beginning and could be a bit randomized or depending on player behavior (eg. completed side quests). I just like to have something big to do, not just solving side quest (which of course I like very much). I think that to become a hero (which most RPGs are about) you should do something really great. :)

hazul
Member #4,338
February 2004
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Quote:

Assigning mimimal caster level to a spell is good idea IMHO. It also helps balancing the game (low level PC can`t get most destructive spells).

True.

Quote:

And for spell casting cost: mana is the best way IMHO. You could also implement colorful mana system with more types of mana (eg. element-based, etc). A spell can also require more than one type of mana.

If there is a mana system, I'll want to keep it simple, so just a single type of mana should be enough :)

Quote:

I also think that player should have a main quest in the game as well as large number of side quests. The main quest of course don`t have to be known at the beginning and could be a bit randomized or depending on player behavior (eg. completed side quests). I just like to have something big to do, not just solving side quest (which of course I like very much). I think that to become a hero (which most RPGs are about) you should do something really great.

About being a hero -- I'm not really sure. Does the player necessarily have to be one? The game could be realistic or even naturalistic in that aspect. Maybe the player is just like any other guy, until if he wants, he can accomplish something in missions e.g. for the king. The "main quest" would simply be the thread of missions from a particular important person. I like the idea of this since it gives a lot of freedom. Bear in mind, I'm not making a FF copy, neither am I trying to capture the idea of Zelda.

PS Another screenshot attached :)

* * * * *
"Multiplayer is actually the best way of not programming a good AI" -ReyBrujo

Krzysztof Kluczek
Member #4,191
January 2004
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Quote:

The "main quest" would simply be the thread of missions from a particular important person.

This way it should be more fun. :) I haven`t said that main quest have to be single mission. :)

Quote:

About being a hero

Saving world/somebody or helping others is IMHO part of being a hero. He can be an usual guy at start doing his usual work but sooner or later he`d want to do something else, something important and become a hero in some way. :)

Joel Pettersson
Member #4,187
January 2004

Maybe you could do something similar to what I'm going to use in my game when it comes to the magic system...

There you sometimes learn a new spell when leveling up, but you can also learn spells in other ways, like reading books. If you use a spell alot, it will level up and become stronger. Then there is going to be a global magic strenght modifier that sometimes increases when leveling up. Using magic reduces the MP level. Quite simple, but I dont need anything super-advanced for my game. If the status system becomes too complicated, the game easily gets boring...

DanTheKat
Member #1,990
March 2002
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Don't be afraid to overpower your magic a bit. I've seen games where just plain whacking things with a sword is just as effective as casting a fireball, or games where physical attacks are superior to magic (*cough*FF VIII*cough*).

This should make it so that the fighter types would have an easier time in the beginning (beginning players would probaly choose a fighter character) but as the player gets a feel for the game and he fights more complex creatures, he'll have a harder time than a wizard would in some situations.

As for how the character gains magic: It's up to you.

Balance is important. Don't make the game too easy. Don't make the game too hard. If I had to step over the boundary line a bit, then I would go to the more difficult side.

As for the storyline. Let the player do what quests he wants. Lots of RPG storylines have the feel that you're already the hero, but usually committing a heroic act should make the player the hero more than just being the main character.

Stats. Your game is a bit on the Zelda side, so don't go with too many stats. Str., Con., Int., and Luck are probably the ones necessary.

Str is the base stat of your strength (without weapons)
Con is the base stat of your defense (without armor)
Int is the base stat of your magic power (without added effects of a magic spell, say a fireball might have +23 power)
Luck helps determine how often items drop when you kill an enemy and such.

Okay, I stole those stats from Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow, but they should work.

---
"Even the best spellcaster can't transmute bread into bread." - spellcaster

spellcaster
Member #1,493
September 2001
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The real question is: What can magic do, and why do you need / want it?

If the "main magic" source is an alchemist or enchanter, you could have only a few magic items and the role of the wizard is to make these items.

This also provides a lot of quest ideas (getting rare stuff so you can create new magic items).

You can supplement this with support magic (like healing and increasing some stats of friends for a certain time). A priest could "bless" the group thus increasing their defense or chance to hit.
He could also lower the defense of the enemies, etc.

That way you have clear distinctions between offense (fighter), support (mage) and healing (cleric).
If you now add Paladins into the mix (mainly offense, but some healing) you already have a nice mix.

If you want flashy magic spells, you'll need some offense magic as well, I guess.
But then you need to decide why magic is different. Why should I use a spell if I can use a club?
Maybe a mage can target multiple enemies doing some damage to each ... or maybe he can confuse them (so they won't attack or attack another monster).

If you just do the "magic is a normal attack" thing it does get boring quickly. Once you know the spell animation the flair is gone.
If magic is different, you also need some tactic.

--
There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.

Martin Cerny
Member #3,931
October 2003

Quote:

If you use a spell alot, it will level up and become stronger.

I don't like this attitude to skills, because then I end up staying for a quarter of an hour just casting magic and sleeping to recover mana.
I'd rather base it all on exps.

Baba
---------------
Smile, it's gonna be worse.

Korval
Member #1,538
September 2001
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Quote:

If you use a spell alot, it will level up and become stronger.

The problem with doing this is that, if you come to a situation where you need Spell X, but you haven't practiced with it (since you haven't needed it before), you're in trouble. Basically, if it is a fight, you have to die, reload your game, and spend some (boring) time practicing Spell X until it is strong enough to be useful.

Joe Olivieri
Member #2,286
May 2002
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Korval brings up an interesting point but one that can be avoided with careful game design :)

Think about it. Should you ever need spell x if you haven't practiced with it? I would say no... if you're in an ice cavern, fighting ice monsters and you pick up fire while you're there don't you think that a good gamer will put it to use almost immediately? Along those same lines... you could have one of your other characters suggest to a magic user that just picked up fire to start melting monsters.

My point is... if you design your game properly, all elements will be cohesive such that the game becomes a well orchestrated RPG. The Wind Waker was a great example of this. You would pick up a new ability, be given the opportunity to practice it a bunch, then you'd need it for the bad guy at the end. It always seemed to work out flawlessly and by the end of the game you had all these cool moves.

Just my 2c.

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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You go to the ice cavern. Quickly you figure out that using fire might be a good idea. So you use fire, and it turns out to be effective. Once you've cleaned out the ice cavern, your fire spells are much stronger than any other spells. So you keep using them to fight other monsters, out in the forest, the lost temples, et cetera. And then you come upon a fire cavern.

Now you're screwed. Your arsenal consists almost entirely of fire spells, since those were the most powerful ones you had, and you never had to switch around.

Cue boring levelup of ice spells.

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Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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X-G: If that occur's, it'd probably be the player's fault. They should know not to focus on one element entirely like that. If they don't, then your illustration is an excellent method of teaching them that valuable lesson. :)

As Joe said, it's about game design too. You can work around that. One way could be to have requirements for different levels. So, for example, once you get your fire spell up to level 20, you'll need to get a Fire Gem to bring it any higher. Of course, you'll get the Fire Gem from the fire cavern. In the mean time, might as well level up ice, seeing as you just got the Icicle from the Ice Cavern which allows you to bring your ice spell up past 20. ;)

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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Regardless of whose fault it is, it is not fun to play that way. That's the task of the game designer; to make sure that such things do not happen. The player doesn't care whose fault it is, he just wants to have fun. Basically, the player will not have an incentive to use anything else than fire spells, simply because they are so much powerful than anything else in his arsenal.

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Since 2008-Jun-18, democracy in Sweden is dead. | 悪霊退散!悪霊退散!怨霊、物の怪、困った時は ドーマン!セーマン!ドーマン!セーマン! 直ぐに呼びましょう陰陽師レッツゴー!

Joe Olivieri
Member #2,286
May 2002
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I think you're missing the point... the point is that the ultimate design of the RPG has to carefully equate the balance of power and introduce those elements when appropriate as well as diminishing the returns of those results when necessary. It's all about how well you craft your areas, game flow and elements to make a well-rounded world for the player to explore.

If the focus of the game is boring level-up activities someone will play it. Why do you think we have Dragon Warrior 8 on the horizon? ;D If that's not what your designing for then you're just going to have to dig into the details quite a bit more to flesh out the potential exploits for power balance. We are talking game design here and one of the most prevelant pitfalls of independant RPG's is the lack of cohesion among the elements in the RPG's world.

[edit: MAN YOU GUYS POST FAST! ;D]

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Quote:

it is not fun to play that way.

Then I guess I just disagree :)

If this were a game for the mentally challenged, I would agree with you. Everything should be laid out for them, and they shouldn't be able to make mistakes. ::)

Quote:

Basically, the player will not have an incentive to use anything else than fire spells

What about having another skill other than fire? Obviously he's going to need more than that... or, as I keep repeating myself, this is a very stupid player.

Quote:

they are so much powerful than anything else in his arsenal.

If the player is going to use his strongest spell, while keeping his other spells weak, then he's just plain stupid. Remember, this is the object of the game we're talking about here. If mario runs through Mario World skipping all the mushrooms, power flowers, etc.. he's going to have a tough time finding the princess. Poor game design? No.. just a brain dead gamer.

In the example I gave, he would no longer be gaining experience in the fire spell unless he got the fire gem. So he's wasting his time using fire spells.

Just because the player can level up his skills doesn't mean he's stupid enough to use the first one he gets until the end of the game.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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Why is he supposed to level up other spells? They pose a significant disadvantage to the player, and he has no way of knowing if he's going to have to use them later or not. ::)

Either he ends up gimped, i.e. with only one spell that doesn't work against something further on, or annoyed because he spent time leveling every spell to a mediocre level without getting any use out of most of them.

--
Since 2008-Jun-18, democracy in Sweden is dead. | 悪霊退散!悪霊退散!怨霊、物の怪、困った時は ドーマン!セーマン!ドーマン!セーマン! 直ぐに呼びましょう陰陽師レッツゴー!

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Why can't he just level up the ice spells the same way he leveled up the fire spells?

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X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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23: He can, but that's extremely boring. See Korval's post above.

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Zaphos
Member #1,468
August 2001

Yes, I agree with Korval and X-G. Any point in a game where the player is forced to walk around just 'leveling up' is a point where the game design has failed. When the focus becomes gaining levels, especially when gaining levels means repetitive, simplistic battles that are not entertaining in themselves and do not even contain a real threat of death like a boss / high-level battle would, you really start to approach a progress quest with occassional button presses, and not a game.
I see two major ways around this:
1) Group magic into one category that increases in power as you use it, so everything is ready at the same time, or
2) Put the fire region immediately after the ice region, so that the player can act logically and not be punished for it later in the game.

Edit: Or 3) Don't give the spells until they're useful -- ice spells come right before the fire cavern, and fire spells come right before the ice cavern, and the player is not expected to have any experience using either until they are useful.

Edit: As to the whole brain-dead player argument, I don't buy it. It sounds like the mentality that lead to early adventure games in which the player could forget to do something in the beginning of the game and not die for it until the mid to late game ... at which point they'd have to waste a lot of time replaying stuff that isn't that interesting to replay. If a player does something dumb, let them feel it a bit right away. If mario goes through levels not picking up mushrooms / whatever, he should have trouble beating the next level(s), and not some level 20 hours later.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Missing the point. :) The ice spells get leveled up in the fire dungeon. You could even set it up so the ice spells are only accessible shortly before said dungeon. So by the later levels, every spell has at least some oomph. Takes some smart design, but it can be done.

You can also sell one-time elemental attack items in the shops (a few games do something like that) in case you need them. So anyone neglecting certian spells will learn quickly not to, and they'll stil have options beyond spending an extra four hours leveling.

I'm not sold entirely on the idea of individually leveling spells, mind you. Just saying it can work. :)

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

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