{"name":"607719","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/0\/d\/0dd85136850a9a22803ce2446385e4eb.jpg","w":2048,"h":1232,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/0\/d\/0dd85136850a9a22803ce2446385e4eb"}

wtf!

still, I'm really, really glad I'm not American. took 5 years of this before a hospital would do it for free.

Aw, that's nothin'! I have to pay for food, without which I would die of starvation within a couple of months!

Who needs testicles anyways?

Is that the guy who then afterwards complained that the surgery made his penis look small?

Warning: Racial Oriented Remark Follows:

God Damn! They aren't happy with just having bigger penises, now they are stepping it up a notch. That is one I will happily let them have.

</WARNING>

On a serious side, I'm sure that is something that plagues men of all races. Him being African American just gave me the opportunity to make that remark. I'm curious what the statistics are for men having that problem. Assuming it is elephantiasis or something similar.

I think there was no inherent problem he just knocked it which then triggered bruising, etc. Given his procreation device was embedded inside, I wonder where the wee went

That was quite probably the most stupid and irrelevant counter I've heard in a very long time.

Why? Food is at least as important as health care, and nobody says it should be "free" (TANSTAAFL).

Is he a buddy of Stanley's dad from South Park?

I guess you're still wondering why slavery was abolished just a few decades ago too.

I'm still wondering what will happen if people can't pretend to get "free" stuff, will they hold their breath until they turn blue?

[EDIT]

Otherwise, the doctors are enslaved! That's what working for free is, unless you're nagged into it or something.

They're not working for free if healthcare is free or not. Please don't be stupid.

So the money comes out of thin air? Please don't be stupid.

I am quite happy giving a proportion of my taxes to help others in need of healthcare, education, food, water and a decent level of life rather than seeing them suffer and die. So are most other people.

Meh, maybe I just see too many people gaming the system and living "for free" when cab driving.

[EDIT]

And this?

{"name":"k0pjRyi.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/0\/e\/0ed47a2104c4364ce0e5d6ed6f867218.jpg","w":683,"h":384,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/0\/e\/0ed47a2104c4364ce0e5d6ed6f867218"}

A hockey player at my high school took a puck to the nads during practice one day. His testicles swelled up like red plums... They went back to normal size after a few weeks, but apparently it was pretty fun while it lasted.

I never understood this line of thinking. Seriously, you throw up such tantrums over giving another human fucking being free healthcare yet have no problems with funding the biggest war machine on earth? Yeah... that seems reasonable.

Besides, you have to pay taxes anyway, why not make someones life easier if you can?

Its easy to be an asshole. I was an asshole for a long time. But then I thought, what if it were me? Always puts things to perspective.

Is Obamacare not good enough for you?

No. Obamacare does absolutely nothing for me.

My opinion on Obamacare is that what was passed is shit, what was supposed to pass could have been great.

The surgery to correct this problem costs over a million dollars to perform. He does not have insurance and likely would not have qualified for insurance since he obviously cannot work and he has an existing condition. The American Health Care system simply does not work for him so his only hope is to raise money or hope someone will do it for free. I would really hate to be in his shoes.

I agree with others that since we apparently have all of this money to spend on pointless wars, and aid to other countries, why not spend some on ourselves?

This guy is on the Howard Stern show all of the time and he is really cool.

I never said the wars were doing any good! Except for the profits of the military industrial complex, of course. Now we're doing the same thing to health care.

{"name":"20120630-160532.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/3\/c\/3ce2ae3fce59f6c15c65656972f50982.jpg","w":280,"h":180,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/3\/c\/3ce2ae3fce59f6c15c65656972f50982"}

How did the thread get onto war ? Are they dropping ten tonne testicles on enemy targets ?

The main point of a healthcare system where (almost) everyone is insured regardless of their payments, and every one who can pays, is that is in fact cheaper in most cases than what you have in the USA. Just look at Canada, for instace.

And why is healthcare for everyone cheaper? Because a stitch in time saves nine. If this guy could have gone to the doctor when the swelling started, he could have gotten healed with minor surgery. Now he needs a huge surgery that will cost at least tenfold more.

And if he got cured early on, he could have gone on to find a job and pay taxes. And his employers wouldn't mind he had a "preexisting condition" because it wouldn't make the insurance fees more expensive. And the doctors wouldn't have to worry if they will get paid. There's a bigger insured base.

And this doesn't mean it all needs to be run by the government either. In some countries the health care is run mostly privately, only those who can't afford the free market are covered by the state. And in other countries, the healthcare system is run by private charitable institutions. Which make even more sense than commercial companies running the system if you think about it.

As for the USA army, it is so big, mostly to give jobs to poorer USA citizens in a way that doesn't offend conservative sensibilities, and puts money in the pockets of the military industries.

Why don't we get food insurance? Everybody would get New York Strip, lobster and caviar all the time, price wouldn't matter and comparison shopping would be a distant memory and we'd all eat like kings.

I, for one, don't see what's wrong with free food if the country can afford it.

I think fat people should have to buy skinny, hungry people dinners.

In our constitution, every citizen has a fundamental right to being healthy, educated and generally not left to rot out on the street. (Note: most people don't use the 2nd one)

Its something basic, that is why its free. It is indeed very patriotic to be pro health care. People look down on people who disagree. To us, you're still greedy imperialist pigs. Capitalism is your way of spreading your evil seed. We are fighting it though...

Now excuse me while I get my hammer and sickle and go fight the good fight.

I though there were already food stamps in the USA? Acording to wikipedia it's more of a card system now, but hey. And no, it's not about giving everyone caviar and lobster. Those are luxuries. A yearly or two yearly checkup and refunding of small surgery is much more like making sure everyone who can't afford basic foodstuffs can still survive by giving them food aid such as the stamps or soup kitchens, etc.

You may say that that's what charity is for, but unfortunately, history and current numbers show charity alone isn't enough. The state has to force people to be charitable through their taxes. If it doesn't, the results are disastrous for the weakest and poorest.

We try to give everyone the basics of life. That's the decent thing to do. There are people who will abuse the system, but should the punishment for such "laziness" be death?

I see your point. Health care for anyone who might get sick or injured is really the same as food for anyone who might get hungry.

http://www.youtube.com/v/xLTTX35LNJo

They're laughing at all you liberal suckers. I oughta try it myself before the US is a third world also ran.

When do they take your compassion away? During the brain-washing in schools where you pledge allegiance?

I'll take you into the local projects, they'll adjust your attitude in 10 min. tops. However, there isn't any Obamacare to put you back together again until October.

Your point being? What, that people game the system? Some people will always game the system. Does that mean the less fortunate majority should be punished for it?

Its the same stupid argument people here try to use to abolish free education. If you're signed up in a school you have a lot of benefits plus you can find work more easily through "student services" a kind of work agencies.

EDIT: So people sign up for school and go to work through these agencies and make a lot of money while being insured for free and getting free meals for free for 1 year. Potential for abuse, you say?

Well, I looked it up, the failure rates are not higher than anywhere else. A small minority is exploiting this, but the majority is using it to, well, actually get an education without being crippled by debt. (EDIT: Let me clarify, you have two free sign ups, if you fail, the next ones are all payable)

Its not based on logic or reason. Its the same as with you. And when you have nothing else to say, you use convenient labels like "liberal" and "third world countries".

And I never understood it, what is wrong with being liberal?

Well, it doesn't really matter. Time will tell, just like it always has. I was once young and naive too.

Well facts and reason play a big role in my book.

But again, using the "I'm old, therefore I'm wise and don't need to defend my viewpoints" card is so much like you, Arthur.

But I agree, reasoning with a brick wall is pointless, especially when said brick wall is basing its opinions on emotion like cynicism.

And in case you have been living under a rock, time has already told, the most advanced countries in the world (based on living conditions) have free universal healthcare and are: guess what, its not the U.S.

I've seen too many scenarios like this (on a smaller scale, of course).

http://freedomkeys.com/thanksgiving.htm

The Communism card? Arthur, think harder. No European country is communistic...

"Free" stuff? That's not communist? Not the facist "some are more equal than others" thing Russia eventually became, but "to each according to his need, from each according to his ability" means that eventually it becomes the norm to leech off everybody else. The people who actually produce become tired of supporting everybody else, and they join the leeches.

[EDIT]

Pushing the government to take my money by force (taxation under threat of imprisonment or whatever) to spend on a bunch of losers that you think need more money is immoral as anything else I can think of. Spend all you want of your own money if it's important to you, but leave me out of it.

No. Just no. People do not want to be dependent on Government help. People actually want to, you know, have a job and make their own money.

But anyone can talk, right? By your logic, countries with universal health care and social security will actually have more deadbeats, right? Why work when I can get those 300€ a month, right?

Unemployment rate by country

Slovakia:       14.5%
Poland:         10.8%
Hungary:        10.6
Sweden:         8.4%
Finland:        8.2%
United Kingdom: 7.7%
U.S.:           7.6%
Czech Republic: 7.2%
Denmark:        7.0%
Luxembourg:     5.6%
Germany:        5.4%
Austria:        4.9%
Norway:         3.5%
Switzerland:    3%

My, my! People actually don't all want to be leeches? That's actually... not that surprising.

The Government is already forcing you to pay taxes under the threat of imprisonment.

I'll forget about the leeches part, as I've debunked that above. Losers? I cannot count the number of people I know who have been saved from poverty by our (otherwise shabby) social service.

My family was on the breaking point and without help we would have been thrown into poverty so deep I am doubtful we would have gotten out. Were my parents losers that they had 6 children? Maybe. Am I a loser for being born into a poor family? Well, probably not.

Today, my mother has a great job, my father has a job, my siblings are all getting schooled and on their way to better futures.

And most people are such people, victims of their circumstances. Leeches and losers are in the minority.

Well, in your system, I bet we would become part of some gang or become delinquents with a grim future. For the people... You make me laugh.

But lets agree to disagree. I'm tired of being reasonable with a person so obviously filled with the classic American "Commie Scum" propaganda.

I think a good third of the USA population would not work if they were given free food, shelter, and health care.

I don't see how the society benefits from that third getting some horrible minimum wage job to pay for the cheap horrible food, and then rolling around like fat slobs. It's probably cheaper to feed people with free good food, as it will lead to less health problems down the line.

It's ok though... this will happen inevitably with automation. All the minimum wage jobs that are displaced by machines will not be suddenly replaced by highly educated mechanics... and once we get robotic mechanics even that job will be gone.

The future is a future of massive unemployment, and unless we setup up mechanisms to deal with it, it won't be a happy paradise it could be.

Actually I should amend my observation: they will work just hard enough to buy alcohol.

Hah! I have to disagree with you Vanneto. I believed what you did once, that for the most part people on welfare don't want to be on welfare. My ex-brother-in-law and all his little chronic welfare friends completely changed my beliefs however.

He and his friends would blow their entire welfare cheques on cigarettes and booze and then hit up the Food Bank and Soup Kitchen for food. You can only use the Food Bank once a month though so that meant that my ex-wife and I were constantly buying him groceries so he could feed his 2 kids. Finally children's aid took his kids away because he was too lazy to even take care of them... He was given a list of conditions he had to fulfill to get his kids back and he couldn't even get past step 1; Obtain employment. He did manage to get a job cleaning supermarkets but was fired a week later for smoking pot in the parking lot and leaving half way through his shift to bang his new girlfriend (who also got pregnant). When it became evident that he wasn't getting his kids back and I wasn't going to be giving him any more handouts he fucked off and left town. Last I heard he's got another baby in London Ontario that children's aid society also won't let him near.

TLDR; My ex-brother-in-law is a total dirtbag who is quite happy to be on welfare and laughs when you tell him to get a job.

I think it's all about the attitude you are brought up with. My parents always taught me that being on welfare is shameful and means that you can't support yourself. My ex-bro-in-law was brought up on welfare, so naturally he thinks it's a great way to live, and why not? He has no ambition beyond smoking pot and getting laid (without contraception of course). Guess what? He can get that with his welfare cheque. The province even pays his rent for cryin' out loud.

This thread is about jealousy more than anything. I wouldn't consider myself a low life (I get a sum of money each month because I have schizophrenia (which comes with many complications)), but I don't envy the people who are "healthy" and spend their whole cheque on drugs. And if you were in my shoes I doubt you'd envy me either. I used to work for a living (for about half of my life, including childhood) and when I was healthy and working life was probably better than it is now with health issues and just enough to get by plus a few bucks here and there to have "fun" with (have never had a vacation in my life besides 2 weeks of not working on games last year.) My point is: those people cheating the system have a crappy life, so if you're jealous I would be careful what you wish for, and if you're not then what are you really mad about? Would you rather that person was slaughtered for not spending his money wisely? But I really think it is misplaced jealousy ie "man I was I could sit around drinking all day" but you don't see the whole picture, and I've seen some of those lives up close and it's fucking scary more than disgusting.

@Samuel Henderson: so, your ex-brother-in-law and his friends are the majority of people? Canada must be a small place eh.

I never thought a topic about over-sized male genitalia would be so popular in an almost entirely male forum

You want personal anecdotes? Right now I have a cab driving buddy who gets $1500 a month from the government because he's "disabled" (i.e. too fat to work). He was holding pretty steady at 192Kg (425 lbs) for a couple of years, but now he's 200Kg. He's 172 cm tall. He's working as a cab driver to make a bit more money, but he doesn't report it because it'd hurt his check or something like that. He was diagnosed with diabetes about two years ago, and the insulin etc. takes a couple hundred dollars a month. He's also a real doormat, giving out free rides to other cab drivers and paying significant amounts of money for goofy reasons. Last week he paid $31 for a cheap plastic flashlight with 3 LED's that's too weak to illuminate address numbers from the street, but it has a flashing red light that might be seen on a street with no streetlights, and it has a "siren" that could be heard 100 meters away by a person with good hearing if there was total silence otherwise. He bought it from a cab driving woman that he likes (she's married) and they don't have a car, and he's always hauling them around to the store or whatever and they might throw him $5 once every three or four rides. There's another girl he likes, he's driven over to the next town to get this girl and another girl several times to bring them back to a bar and they didn't even mention giving him any money for the ride. You might say that it's OK to give free rides to your buddies, but if you're going to use somebody else's car without permission when you're supposed to be using it to make money for you and the boss, it's not so cool. This other girl was a cab driver too, and he paid her $200+ to get a Batman tattoo on her left buttock. She spent the money on tires. I have to confess I've taken advantage of him too. Mar 2011 he paid me $100 to cut all the hair off my head because he "wanted to see what I looked like". It was pretty funny though, because nobody recognized me until I spoke, and I trolled quite a few people as the "silent asshole bully".

Just remember, the bill is actually "Romney Care", and its a conservative bill that was passed so both sides could say they did something without actually doing anything useful.

What was needed was a proper single payer system. you know, the kind that we know already works, and is in use in many countries. Instead what you got was some kind of hacked up concession bill with most of its teeth removed.

As was said previously, there will always be those that try to gam the system. You'll never get rid of them short of a cleansing. Whether you want to punish other people for a few people being ass-hats is up to your moral compass.

I'm scared it'll wind up like car insurance. You have to keep paying the insurance company or supposedly the highway patrol will send someone to your house to take the tag off your car, but I've never actually heard of that happening.

OTOH, about three years ago a woman I was working for had a cab hit quite hard and on purpose by a couple marines in a jeep, and the cops caught them a mile away trying to switch seats. It didn't really matter though, because they were both well over the limit. Anyway, this woman contacted their insurance company to get the money to repair what eventually was $3000 damage, but this company was making excuses like "We have to send a letter to his home of record in Pennsylvania to make sure nobody stole his car and collided with yours". She replied that they didn't have to do that because he was IN JAIL at the moment for wrecking her car and DUI. They still wouldn't do anything, so she hired a lawyer. Eventually the lawyer wouldn't answer her calls as to why he wasn't doing anything, and she just gave up. I guess the insurance company though it was cheaper to bribe him than pay the $3000. I told her to complain to the North Carolina Bar Assn. but she wouldn't bother. I asked her for the name of the lawyer and the name of the insurance company, but she wouldn't say.

There's another cab driver that was sitting at a stop sign about that time, and a marine in a pickup truck T-boned his cab at 40 mph (65 kph), his car was totaled and he was seriously injured to the tune of $43K of hospital bills. Same thing, he hired a lawyer because the insurance wouldn't pay up, and then the lawyer wouldn't answer calls, etc.

I can easily imagine the same thing will happen with Obamacare.

[EDIT]

I've seen maybe 20 instances personally where people with pride were suddenly homeless or whatever due to fire etc., and they literally pulled themselves up by their bootstraps to having a job and a place to live within two weeks, and a year later were back on track as "normal people". Around here somebody on welfare and/or food stamps is pretty much making a career out of it. I've hauled several of them as regulars for years from low-income housing to the Wal Mart, nail salon, hairdresser, drug dealers etc.

It's not about giving food and healthcare to everyone who might need it, but rather about everyone who cannot afford it. That's charity yes, and charity works best institutionalized.

It seems to me the main problem in the USA is that too many people are trying to screw over other people. Dog eat dog. Especially USA insurance companies seem unreliable. That's actually one more reason to hand the healthcare to the government or charities.

As for people gaming the system, it's necessary to do some elementary checks, but some abuses are unavoidable if you don't want to risk excluding people who actually need welfare. When it comes to abusing the system, hose welfare checks are nothing compared to the millions of bail outs and kickback that the wealthy and powerful get. Just look at the banking bailout.

The most poignant commentary I read here so far was that as technology advances, unemployment will become the norm, not the exception. Once robots and androids are able to do all the manual labor, there will be nothing to do for the majority of people. Not everyone can be a scientist, a sports man, an artist, engineer, designer or a computer programmer. The unemployed masses will demand that the wealth generated by the machines will be distributed to them. The wealthy will oppose this for a time but in the end (and hopefully without too much bloodshed) the masses will get what they want.

And that may mean indeed that we will have a world where most people just consume and lay about. The ambitious minority will be those who join in the the aforementioned professions. But isn't that the goal of technological progress? To make all manual labor unneeded, and usher in a golden age where people do not have to work for a living anymore?

I think everybody here probably wants people to be healthy and cared for, etc. I wouldn't look at the welfare critics as people who are categorically "jealous" or not compassionate or whatever. They just generally don't trust that the government can run an effective system across 50 states without widespread abuse that causes everything to collapse.

And of course all they can point to is anecdotal evidence. That's going to be the basis for most opinions.

Most of the people I grew up with are very conservative and would only resort to government hand-outs as a very last measure. They are very outspoken against freeloaders, yet are the first people to open their own wallets to help out honest people they know who need help.

The thing that's unique about healthcare is that preventative care can offset a lot of future problems and ultimately should be cheaper if everybody got some sort of yearly allowance towards medical bills.

Ideally that's something that business owners would realize, but I suppose that there's no shortage of cheap labor, so it might not affect their bottom line.

Good observation.

Haven't people been worrying about this for thousands of years with any new technology that comes around?

It's called healthy competition, unless harm is involved. No, not "economic harm" caused by working harder and causing the lazy person to get laid off or fired.

Where did you get the idea that goverment or charities are reliable? Check your assumptions.

True dat, but no excuse.

The Jetsons anticipated this and promised us 4 hour workweeks ("Pushing all these buttons is killing me!") but it appears that isn't working out quite as anticipated. OTOH, lots of jobs are held down on the hours to avoid overtime and "full time benefits" that the government is supposedly enforcing by fiat.

Well, let's agree to disagree on the welfare thing apart from one point.

And that is the reliablity of people and organisations. Somehow there seems to be this conservative idea that for-profit organizations are somehow better than not-for profit ones, or the government. That's plain nonsense.

I contend that organisations can be at best as good as the people who work in it, and often they are worse than that, usually though the bad influence of the fat cats at the top. When it comes to the quality, the form of the organisation matters far less than the people and the leadership.

The main point to avoid such bad effects is that some forms of organization are more appropriate than others for certain fields. Charities have less disincentives for paying out insurance fees than for profit ones do, so it seem to me that having the healthcare run by charities would lead in the most benefits for the people who need healthcare.

I agree that a future without work hasn't materialized just yet, and most likely, it will take a long, long time before we are there. I agree that for most jobs that got automated away, some other jobs became available, but always with that new job being less labor intensive than the old one. Once shop and restaurant staff are all androids, what will there be left to do for people who do not have artistic, sportive or intellectual skills?

Somehow the idea has arisen that people working "for the good of all, out of their heart" will motivate people better than self-serving greed. It might work for a month or three. Naturally the greed must be channeled by tort and anti-monopoly laws, but that's the only thing that works in the long run.

Ah that reminds me. One of the places my Brother in Law worked had a deal, if you used the building Gym, they'd pay for more of your health insurance. Or something like that. Basically, they tried to encourage healthier living.

I've heard of insurance companies reducing premiums and deductibles for people who take regular checkups and show consistent "health" or consistent improvement in lifestyle.

I've done that myself, yet here I am now. Not quite the same thing for a healthy person to pick themselves back up as it is for a sick person. And I know you don't believe in mental illness but I'm really quite sick.

I knew a guy from Lapland who could bleed from his eyes on demand. So I guess since I know one who can the rest can too.

Ah, this thread gave me a little lightbulb. It's really hard to describe my mental state, I've never been able to do so. But I thought of something close. If you've ever had a concussion - that's similar to how I feel almost all the time.

EDIT: Now I wonder if it's not more the concussions that are at play here - but there are other things too, like hallucinations/voices/paranoia that aren't things you'd get just from a concussion. Don't mean to steal the thread, I'm just excited I now have a way to describe it. The doctors always played down the role of the concussions though.

I never made any such claims and you are correct that they (and other people like them) are definitely a very small minority. Sure, the rest of Canadians can afford to subsidize those who are too lazy to work but that doesn't make it ok.

I was merely pointing out that not everyone on welfare wants to get off welfare and some people DO in fact want as many government handouts as they can get.

Time doesn't always tell. Not even close. You're thinking of confirmation bias. Possibilities that did not happen are mostly unknown. One way to judge what will happen with a given law is to see other countries have done and how their laws affected them. Generally, the rest of the industrialized nations haven't reverted to ruin.

There isn't anyone who thinks "free health care" means it grows on trees, so it's foolish quest to argue against that straw puppet. Lets see what health care has actually cost the United States.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2012/12/30/2012-the-year-in-healthcare-charts/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

This is less of a red v. blue case than one of optimizing an inefficient system. I agree, though, that time will tell if Obamacare is any more efficient. It's an awfully piecemeal patchwork due to having to please our current healthcare corporations paying their way into law.

True. And I know such people. But as you said they are fewer than the ones who actually want to get off welfare.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Well sure they want to "get off welfare", everybody looks down on them. But as far as putting some effort into it, well that's asking too much. Kind of like when a religious person says "I'll pray for you", I'm thinking "So you'll help me as much as possible as long as it doesn't involve effort?".

I never said there aren't any scumbags that would drain the system dry given the chance.

Here, nobody looks down on anyone on welfare. That would be stupid. I think what Matthew stated (1/3 of Americans wouldn't work if given the chance) speaks volumes of your mentality and attitude.

EDIT: I see it as the privacy thing. You take away the privacy of millions of people so that the 0.001% cant hurt you. It might satisfy the stupid people, but reasonable people know it doesn't work that way.

The thing with free health care is, you will appreciate it when you need it.

I have had many procedures in my life, mainly related to riding a motorcycle, and motocross (broken ribs, legs, hernia, etc) and everything was free.

I pay taxes? Yes, I do, about 21%, I think is less that what USA charges their citizens from what I read on wikipedia article about USA taxes.

I pay them glad, because when I need health, Im sure Im getting it, even if it is a expensive procedure. Even a foreign can get it, and no hospital can refuse. This guy in the photo should have purchased a ticket here, he would have got his problem solved only for the price of the ticket.

And Im not angry about the taxes, because I know they will help me eventually, and help others; is a cooperative mind, in USA seems to imperate "me over the others" mind, you dont rejoice if you get health care, you rejoice when the other does not get health care.

I have read too that many people in USA join the army to get health care, a good salary and education. That is B.S; a extortion, you join a army to go and die in a foreign land just to get what should be yours just by paying your taxes. How many are still in the jungle of Vietnam, their bodies never to be recovered? Joining the army to defend your country in your own soil is a thing, to go to a foreign land as a mercenary, well, lower than a mercenary since you dont get rich, just get what should be yours, is a fools errand. While you die in the sand/jungle/tundra, the politics cant count the money they are making with your blood.

That is pure and savage capitalism, comrade.

BTW, we have free education too, including college, from where many nobel prizes were educated.

Well said Kronoman! I totally agree with your points.

Am I the only one who read Player Piano by Kurt Vonnegut? People don't want jobs because they can make money. They want jobs to feel needed. If you talk to someone who delivers newspapers every day and someone who does nothing all day, you will see a strong difference. The "paper boy" may be pissed off because he's not making enough money or he has a menial job, but he will be animated.

Arthur is so anti-religious but this song is almost a perfect fit.

Am I the only allegro user who feels it's a jolly good job we all live far apart and don't know exactly where we all live ?

Why William? I'm just trying to get Arthur to open his mind a bit. Some people just aren't willing to admit they're not perfect. I am. Here's one for me:

Why do I get this ?

{"name":"607744","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/c\/4\/c445385628045bef867970942fb9f20c.png","w":540,"h":382,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/c\/4\/c445385628045bef867970942fb9f20c"}

IDK. It's a link to The Struggle Within by Metallica (same album).

IDK ? What does that mean ?

I don't know.

EDIT: Sorry about this. I'm often WAAAY too "blunt" with things. I present things in a "mean" way. All I really wanted to do was say "Hey, Arthur, don't you think you may be acting a little like the subject of this song?", and not "I HATE YOU ARTHUR!!!!!!!!!"

I earn more than many people, and many people earn more than me. So we all pay different amounts of tax, yet regardless of status we all get the same 'free' healthcare. If I had no job and no money I'd still get free healthcare and further assistance to lead a fairly normal life. When I did get a job I'd have a better quality of life and pay taxes to help everyone continue to get free healthcare.

I see this as a better model than one where people become ill and die simply because they couldn't afford to get a life-saving operation.

Comparing free food to free healthcare is just a ridiculous and simplistic comparison, a bit like saying more guns create safer environments (sorry, couldn't resist bringing guns into the argument as we haven't argued about them yet

)

If I t wasn't for our "free" healthcare and welfare, I'd likely be dead now, rather than a productive member of society. Food for thought.

I'm not against compassion or saving people. Just do it yourself instead of hoping the government will do it for you, and most likely wasting half the money in the process. People used to do it all the time in extended families, but society is way too selfish for that sort of thing now, so they try to force other people to do it with legislation.

kronoman hit the nail on the head. Want help? Help yourself.

Have you switched sides Vanetto?

Nope, but Arthur has the same mentality kronoman described. In more ways than one.

You need help with that money problem? Help yourself.
You need help with depression? Suck it up and help yourself.
You need help with moving? Fuck you.

OK I don't know about the moving part but it seems to fit with the rest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_family

and/or your network of friends. If you're worth a shit you'd find plenty of help if there wasn't any government help to lean on (and wasting the money you could use better yourself).

According to somebody (and ignoring inflated hospital fees as per that article somebody quoted showing US medical costs are 10x the norm) that operation cost over a $1m.

If he'd had it done when he noticed the problem 5 years prior, it would have cost maybe $100 in fees and injections.

The 1970's called and want their prices back.

Do you know how many friends the average blind person or deaf person has ?

They have moms and dads and siblings and cousins etc. Sure, it wouldn't be ideal, but stuffing them away in an institution isn't heaven either.

A link to two essays I find interesting wirth regards to this debate:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Essay:A_Day_In_The_Life_of_Joe_Conservative

The first one exposes how Conservatives in the USA, Canada, or Europe think despite all the benefits that they enjoy. The second essay describes life how life would be like in a country where the government is as the conservative leaders and plutocrat fat cats want it to be.

Edit oh and these ones:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph

Welcome to the plutocracy.

Son, you dare talk shit about the U.S. and A.? How dare you! They are the best. Their way is best. Free what? Are you some kind of communist? The only free thing you can get is a free ass-whooping with that attitude.

Like I said, I'd be dead without the assistance I got. if my family could have helped more, they would have. My mom did a great thing and bought a place for me to live in. That helped a great deal.

And I do help people. I pay my taxes, and my taxes go to government programs that help people.

Some people mooch. And some people mooch off their families. That will never go away. Refusing to help anyone because of a few ass holes is a really stupid thing to do imo.

Theres a lot of people who commit crimes, but we don't need no police, lets just do it ourselves!

Oh and take away knives, people could use them for murder!

If it wasn't for government loans (and grants), I couldn't go to school. :/

The suggestion that family could do anything significant about a medical issue is an absurd cop-out in my opinion. Is family supposed to make the medicine and provide the regular medical care and surgeries?

The bottom line is that we might save someone for free in an emergency room but when it comes to chronic care, people without health insurance are screwed and are basically left to die in the USA. Frankly I'm surprised the guy got his testicles removed in the first place here but he got a lot of notoriety because of the grotesqueness and “humor” of his situation. Lots of radio shows put him on because it was amusing. He basically had to make a fool of himself to get his life back.

The other issue I see is that the USA has generally exported a huge chunk of our jobs to China and India and elsewhere despite that fact that it basically requires a “full-time” job to have affordable health insurance here. Oh and then they want even more of our money to “create jobs”.

I suppose I have little faith in doctors even when their confiscatory fees are paid, the local hospital is discharging patients with c. diff., two roomies contracted it in the last couple months while in the hospital for other ailments, and one of those had to spend some time in a nursing home where they were required to wear gown, cap, face mask and gloves in her room. There were 8 other cases in this nursing home at the same time.

And four years ago a buddy of mine went there for a case of pinkeye, he was supposed to be there five days, but contracted strep while there, and it turned into a five month ordeal. They almost had to do surgery on him.

And a month ago there was a thing circulating on the internet about the IBM "Watson" computer getting a 90% correct diagnosis rate as opposed to the human doctor rate of 50%.

I'll get well on my own just like I've been doing in spite of people wringing their hands and nagging me to go to the doctor.

That's because your system sucks, and has for decades. The private hospitals have NO incentive to provide more than the absolute bare minimum of care, and even then they skimp and charge many many times what it actually cost.

If you think about it, those hospitals have incentive to not heal you. Why? because then you have to go back over and over and over again.

I'm not saying our system is perfect, but its a lot better than yours.

Another interesting tid-bit, its cheaper for insurance companies to pay out death benefits than disability/hospital fees over your life after a major issue. So yay, they'd rather you die.

Prevention is far preferable to treatment. If you notice anything out of the ordinary I suggest at the very least a checkup. Catch things early and you can cut it off at the pass, rather than waiting till you're dying. It's cheaper too. For both yourself and the country as a whole.

LennyLen isn't from Canada, but here's a thread where he couldn't afford to get something done in a timely fashion so he had to wait for "a long time" for the public health care system. Good luck with that sort of thing.

My mother has some thing where the main veins in her legs swell up and could burst and she would die. She has to have surgery every few years. I don't know how much it would cost if it wasn't covered under our health care system. Instead we just pay a reasonable amount of tax like everyone else, and most people are happy doing so. It's not perfect, and sometimes there are wait times, but not just anybody is qualified to perform surgery you know. That's the only complaint I've ever heard from people - that there are delays sometimes. At least they're not 5 year delays for serious things. Everyone here generally agrees that overall we have a great healthcare system and I don't think anybody would trade it for the US system.

You'll wait as long, or longer with the private system, and it'll cost more than your life savings. And end up costing the country and other people in increased insurance costs more than a public system.

But yeah, sometimes waits can be long. There are only so many doctors and surgeons. Especially when your government goes into austerity mode thinking its a good thing, when in fact all it does is kill public services, lives, and in the medium to long term, a lot more money.

We had our provincial health care budget massively slashed a couple times, once just recently and another time back in the 90s. It still hadn't fully recovered from it. Service was slow, wait times were long. And it cost a fortune to try and get service levels back to where they should be (which didn't happen), and attract more doctors.

And now they've done it again herp derp.

People always trot out long waits like its something unique to the public system It could be fixed but politicians are fucking retarded.

Last winter I tried a job cleaning houses on base, I was constantly on my feet or hands and knees for maybe 8 hours a day, my legs swelled up to where I could barely get my pants on and my big toenails turned black, with one toenail falling off. I was also going to the local plasma center and they saw my swollen legs, gave me a physical, and told me implied I have congestive heart failure, and couldn't return until my ankles weren't swollen anymore. Among other things, they told me I had to stop drinking Pepsi(TM)(Nectar of the Godz) because of the high sodium content (it has very very little sodium).

Anyway, the woman hiring me quit, so after a couple months I returned to normal on my own, and the plasma center said I was healthy enough again, but they asked what medication I was taking to make the swelling go down, as if that was the only possible solution.

You're going under the assumption that them telling you you had congestive heart failure means it was true. Obviously swollen legs from working isn't the same as something that requires yearly surgery. Anyway you just keep coming up with arguments to counter what people are saying that are plain and simple nonsense. Like OMG I hit my thumb with a hammer once and it healed all by itself, so if you got your thumb chopped off it should grow back too!

It probably would have went away sooner had you taken at least the intention of the advice. aka: take care of yourself and cut back on things causing the issue.

But the plasma center doesn't normally have doctors on staff, usually only nurses and aides, so I'm not sure you should be slaging everyone off for that.

As for pepsi and sodium, one can of it has 15mg of sodium. Depending on how much you drink and what else you have that has sodium in it, if its a lot or not.

What's your point?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

?

Yeah, I'm looking at a can of pepsi right now. This can says 15mg. also says 1%.

But if you drink 6 cans a day (or more as some people do) thats now 6% or more, in addition to other stuff americans are likely to eat which contains a lot of sodium. any pre processed foods have LOADS of salt in them. it all adds up man.

The sugar is also bad for you.

My point was they're not even doctors. You didn't magically heal from some serious disease. You were just swollen from work and when you stopped it went away. That doesn't happen for every single health issue.

I'm not saying all doctors are perfect either - especially in the US. I wouldn't trust an American doctor worth crap.

So nationalizing health care would suddenly make them competent? Like the US public schools or mail system?

In the us the only incentive most doctors have is money. Which means they are incentivized to not cure/help you.

Here at the very least there are more concerns. Not all doctors are good. there are always going to be quacks and just plain bad doctors.

I'm only guessing, but I get we get a lot more doctors that want to be there and help people. Rather than in it for the mad cash.

I'm out.

Well twofold issue: it's not because they're incompetent that I wouldn't trust them, it's because they benefit from you not getting better. But if the US switched to a public health care system it obviously wouldn't improve 100% overnight. TBH I don't know what would happen, only thing you can do is look at what happened other places. I think things would improve over time, but nobody can see into the future. It's in such a bad state that it might be worth risking it though.

Public schools actually give you more of a grounding in REAL LIFE than private. Obama went to a private school and look how he turned out, and many like him. And USPS is great for cheap parcel service. You pay a premium for better service elsewhere but it's a tradeoff. You could still have private healthcare units there as well, for people who can afford it. The public system would be much better than nothing for those who couldn't.

Out of hypothetical and anecdotal/circumstantial stories?

Here's something to think about. If doctors didn't get paid much, who would become a doctor? Only those who wanted to do the job because they want to help people. Take money out of the equation (not completely, obviously) and things change. That's what we should do in politics too - people are in politics to make money these days. If we stopped all forms of external campaign funding and give politicians just regular salaries, more people who want to be there for the right reasons might be.

The latter is true though. Money can work as a perverse incentive. Imaging being paid per line of code.. :p

Also, for example, I could earn more as a computer programmer if I did jobs that I dislike. In stead, I focus on jobs that I like, and where I can focus on programming well even though I earn less.

Yeah, my current job includes some stuff I don't entirely enjoy. But you know what? It's not as big of a headache as I had expected, but thats mostly due to the tools we use, and the people involved.

If I ever have to touch Moodle or anything like it again, I will scream.

I still think Arthur thinks depression is just "in your head". You know, just suck it up.

I don't think he can be turned with reason / evidence. His beliefs are like stone shoes man. You ain't moving those.

Yeah, yeah, I get it. You think your problems can be solved by Waiting for Help from On High, and they'll burp and diaper you too. But they're all just out for themselves, Maslow's Hierarchy or not.

I bet he comes from Kentucky

You are so concerned that someone ELSE might get medical help for "free" that you are ignoring the fact that you may end up in a similar situation, needing medical help but cannot afford it.

Imagine you need medical care for some reason and are unable to help yourself and some a-hole is demanding that everyone ignore you. I'll bet you change sides really fast once it is YOU that needs medical care for free.

And it really is not for free anyway. You pay for it via taxes.

Is that addressed to me? I've been sick enough more than a few times where I didn't know where I was when conscious at all, and didn't go to the local quack to be overcharged for giving me stuff to make me comfortable while it ran its course.

And the tax thing, it's not just the waste involved, it's another noose they put around your neck to put you under their thumb. "Oh, he thinks Wikileaks is a good idea? Deny his request to be admitted". I admit on the face of it that it sounds quite paranoid, but that's how this works. When the anti-smoking crowd got labels on packs of cigarettes warning of dangers back in '65, they wouldn't have dared to demand no-smoking in public buildings, restaurants or even the beach, because they'd have been laughed at and ignored. But bit by bit they've tightened the noose until all those things are true.

Find a better example than cigarettes. I think that they actually loosened the nose there rather than tightened it. EDIT: Even back in the days of my chain smoking (I'm clean now) I found it rather alright that smoking inside was prohibited. Why should other people smell my filth?

But look at it from this POV: your country is already going down the drain, might as well provide free health care while its happening.

Yeah, glad my best years were back when it was still relatively free, although computers were weak to non-existant.

Scares me that this thread is still going considering the topic that started it .

People who have never suffered before are always ignorant, arrogant and uncompassionate. I have to believe at this point that's the case with Arthur. They're also weak but think they're tough, just because they're never had any real hardship. When Arthur gets a taste of real problems he'll be screwed and change his mind quickly.

Don't hold your breath, you superstitious wannabe mindreader.

{"name":"YouMad.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/e\/4\/e4e77ca92ee9bd707071cda1954ff245.jpg","w":319,"h":243,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/e\/4\/e4e77ca92ee9bd707071cda1954ff245"}

No, and I don't need drugs or therapy to be sane, either.

Congratulations! You're healthy! Bet it feels good.

(and it wasn't a question)

There's a lot more to being healthy than being reasonably free of delusion.

[EDIT]

I gotta go make some money without sucking on the govt. teat, so I won't be able to play with you for a few hours.

Being healthy doesn't make you any less ignorant.

EDIT: Good for you. Make no mistake, I'm extremely thankful that there are people who pay for my existence. It's not like I never try - and I spent 2 months living inside a tarp before I accepted any assistance whatsoever. My feet look like a mummies feet because they were mostly wet without any change in socks or boots that whole time.

I'd draw you a Venn diagram of that statement if I thought you could comprehend it.

It's funny because I'm not trying to be mean here at all and I'm pretty sure you are.

EDIT: Ok, let's end this feud. We'll each post nice drawings of each other. I'll go first.

{"name":"607759","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/0\/0\/00a75de88f892897c750fee468aef700.png","w":675,"h":1212,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/0\/0\/00a75de88f892897c750fee468aef700"}

{"name":"government-leech.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/2\/2\/22d28379754420f313bd324e692e1e7d.jpg","w":442,"h":480,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/2\/2\/22d28379754420f313bd324e692e1e7d"}

Sure.

And since you don't have the wisdom to lead your own life, I'll tell you what to do.

It's already been established by the majority here that's you're ignorant (and an old crank, I added that part for fun - you should try fun sometime) I think I'll trust my own judgement over yours but thanks anyway!

Append: And did you just quote yourself in your sig?

I read it somewhere about a year ago, but don't remember who said it, and Google can't seem to find it. OTOH, the truth of it should be apparent on the face of it.

Yes, do.

Well Arthur, I have a very big and close family on both sides. I don't like mooching - but I'm sure at least most of my family doesn't mind paying taxes and I KNOW they pay more than enough to cover the small amount I get each month. What is your argument now?

That was supposed to be a joke image but he doesn't laugh. :/

Is it enough to cover the overhead and bureaucracy of getting it to you? Suppose they paid you directly and were able to deduct it?

The overhead of our AISH system is pretty low comparatively.

I think its funny you think Trent is some kind of weak mama's boy who never tried a day in his life, when he's not only been homeless, but near death on more than one occasion. Not to forget he continues to try to make a living, such that he can leave "the government teat".

Pretty sure he's put up with a hell of a lot more than you and you continue to push judgement on him like you're some kind of perfect specimen of society.

Also, I thought you dropped the microphone and left?

If I tell my sob stories the responses imply I'm lying anyway, so I'll stop altogether. You guys know computers more than most, but it doesn't seem to make you smart in other ways.

I really do just think you're being a jerk. Since you didn't get any help, noone else can have any either.

I personally resisted a long time. I had a lot of pride. Then I was almost homeless.. Had I been homeless I'd have died. Pure and simple. And I wouldn't be here now, a constructive member of society, paying my dues and working, returning every single cent I got back to society, and then some.

IMO its like a loan. there will always be deadbeats. Whether or not you think loans should not exist because some people take advantage is up to you, but its a really short sighted, and imo stupid line of thinking.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything at all....

I think I have this figured out.

Arthur will never accept there are more honest people than deadbeats. Probably some bad experience in his life that got him this irrational belief. I highly recommend Steven Pinker's The Better Angels of Our Nature. But beware, its actually scientific!

Why he believes Trent is said deadbeat? Because he doesn't accept depression as fact, and because of that Trent can only be lying and mooching.

Or maybe this was already known? I dunno if I made a discovery or not...

Why does Trent imply that I'm telling lies? Methinks he doth protest too much. "Free" money is very seductive, as is power of any kind. Like the cops in the L.A. cops thread. As another example of how government power to do things by fiat gets out of hand, here's another tale of the bunny inspectors going nuts.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/06/29/hare-brained-usda-reportedly-orders-childrens-magician-to-produce-disaster-plan-for-his-rabbit/

I avoided this thread subconsciously because of the title. It wasn't until I was told this is where the Arthur beating was going on that I decided to open it and read it from the beginning (I'm getting "too old" for that).

Maybe it looks rosy from Luxembourg, but as a Canadian citizen let me humbly point out that the Canadian health care system is not one to model yours after. Our system is badly broken in most of the country. Waiting isn't a possibility. It's a guarantee until you're dying. In other words, you don't have that kind of time, don't bother going to the hospital. The politicians take their families to private health care facilities (which I think says it all; perhaps they should prohibit this to force them to fix things). Basically there is a massive shortage of doctors in Ontario (probably nation-wide) so the emergency rooms are packed with non-emergency cases (since those people have nowhere else to go).

I don't make a habit of going to the hospital, but a couple of years ago my dentist told me that there was swelling in my throat and that I should have it looked at by a doctor. I don't have a doctor! Anyway, I let it go for about a week, but I was noticing symptoms too and decided to go to the emergency room (for like the first time in 7 years) to get it looked at. I waited 5 1/2 hours, after which I saw a doctor for all of 45 seconds (I'm not exaggerating). He diagnosed me on the spot and threw me out. I can't really blame him. I'm sure it's infuriating getting walk-in cases like that that are probably usually "run its course" type of things. Nevertheless, for most Canadians, we have nowhere else to go.

I wanted to also ask for a referral to a psychiatrist or psychologist, but honestly didn't feel comfortable doing so. There was basically no privacy. I digress...

Append: For a more real situation, my grandmother has bad knees and basically cannot walk. She has been waiting years for surgery on them, but they just keep rescheduling her. I guess if they wait long enough she'll pass and they won't have to do the surgery.

From the sounds of it European nations seem to have accomplished public health care worth modelling, but trust me when I say that Canada has not.

+1, William, you are awesome.

Honestly, the US should definitely prohibit smoking indoors, including in vehicles or residences where minors coexist. For all intents and purposes, it is an assault on other people to pollute their oxygen supply.

I found this picture quite amusing.

Whoa, temporal anomaly! Everybody just chill the fuck out.

I think you're selling yourself a little short here.

Anyway, I mostly came in this thread to defend poor Arthur because it seems the whole damn community is ganging up on him and for no good reason. The USA is NOT Britain or Australia or whatever country you're from where public health care works. It would not work overnight. There would be far too much resistance to let it work. Half of the country wants it to fail just to say, "I told you so!" It's doomed until the population can be enlightened to not see "socialism" as the enemy. By definition they have to work together for the system to work. That sort of goes against everything they're taught.

Even so, it's doomed until the government is refactored to deter exploitation of power. Canada is currently in bad shape too. Our government is fucking insane right now and Canadian citizens are taking it sitting down. Basically the system needs the right auditing in place to see where and why money is flowing through it, and you need a transparent system that is peer-based to prevent it from being exploited. There needs to be redundancies. If you can buy off one person and exploit the system then it's doomed. The best thing would be for all financial records to become publicly available automatically and irrevocably.

I think that Arthur makes valid points. I personally think that our governments in Canada and the USA are crooked as Hell right now, and I'm afraid for the future because I can't see any way to rein them in. In particular when the majority of the population just accepts it and ignores it. There are bigger fish to fry, I suppose.

I will say this: Americans are far too goddamn obsessed with "liberal" or "conservative". Wipe those terms from your vocabulary. They don't mean fucking anything useful. It's just propaganda and brand loyalty. I don't know how the US system works, but you shouldn't be voting for either party. Personally, I see awesome work being done by the Green Party of Canada. More Canadians need to familiarize themselves with the Greens and all the good stuff that they're trying to do for Canada and tell all of those crooked major party assholes to go fuck a goat.

As for the OP, I'm disappointed that we didn't take the opportunity to make jokes about a guy with massive cojones.

It actually isn't quite as bad as some make it out to be. It could be better. But what that needs is more money, and better management. You have to realize that each province manages its own healthcare system. The federal government just distributes cash via transfer payments to the various provinces. If you want your system improved, get involved and force your provincial govt to fix it.

In general, sure. There are people that take advantage of the system. But thats the only point he seems to be making, over and over. And to him, that's apparently enough to make it a complete waste of time and effort.

Where have I heard that before? Oh, yeah! The US education system! We all know how well that worked out!

*sigh*

You left out the second half of that statement. Just throwing money at a problem almost never works.

Our system here in Alberta was working pretty damn good till the budget was slashed in the 90/2000s. And it'll take a lot of work to get it back up to the way it was. And probably more money than we saved by slashing the budget.

We lost a lot of good doctors, closed hospitals, closed a bunch of beds in still open hospitals, slashed pay. Over all it was a bad idea.

Thats not to say our system here in Alberta isn't working. It's just not working as well as it could. Its still 1000x better than what you get in the US.

I love how you cherry pick stuff to comment on, totally out of context.

edit: I honestly think you're just trolling now.

It's the same old story, give somebody responsibility for something and they'll eventually slack off, if nobody is watching them. But who watches the watchmen? More money just means more opportunity for waste unless the Big Boss is watching closely, and for government programs the Big Boss is the public, but an unhealthy percentage of citizens are too lazy to do so. They just want to sit back and enjoy the benefits. Check out the nomenklatura and productivity of workers in the USSR.

And thats why the people have to stay involved. If you let the people in charge do whatever the hell they want, it'll eventually go to shit. Here in Canuckistan we're slowly getting our voices heard via the CRTC. Used to be that the Govt and the CRTC was just a lap dog for the big telecom and media companies. NO LONGER! We've managed to actually make ourselves heard, and things are changing back in the people's favour.

Next up, get Stephen Harper and his lackeys thrown out.

Why do people always bring up Communism? Especially the USSR. It was NEVER true Communism. It wasn't even attempted.

Well, in "true" communism (like the communes the beatniks had back in the '60's) there weren't so many people that they couldn't help but notice who wasn't contributing. Once it gets past a certain size, there will always be people willing to sit back and take it easy. Hence, taking care of your own via extended families etc., everybody will know who the goldbricks are. Insurance for the big things, and people have to research who the dishonest insurance companies are. And doctors who have to actually compete on price.

Except they don't. Because they don't have to.

Why not? Because of the government interference?

In the American system, they have no incentive to compete. So they don't. They can charge as much as they want, and they do.

So if you have to go to the doctor, you can't ever find one that's cheaper than another? Is this because they collude to fix prices, or lack of advertising because nobody demands it by going to "that guy" who does advertise prices? I realize that some situations could be more complicated than they could reasonably expect, but auto mechanics are in exactly the same position.

Here it isn't a problem. But in the US, you have a choice of "More than you can Afford" and "Bank Breaking". There is choice, but they charge as much as they can, because people have to pay it. This is capitalism at its worst.

Except if your car breaks down, you're inconvenienced for a little while. If your heart breaks down, you're dead. Slight difference.

If your brakes fail, you can easily wind up quite dead!

Regular maintenance helps with that As does not driving like an idiot.

I see your point, but its still not quite the same

There's plenty of ways an auto mechanic can cause one or more people to die. I remember there was a rumor about 15 years ago that the harmonic balancer on a cab (about 3-4 kg weight) came off a cab here and went through the windshield of an oncoming car with a family, killing one of them.

orly?^[1]

The last time Stephen Harper was thrown out he won a majority government in the followup election. It's not a fucking joke and it's not funny.

Rly. the link itself confirms what I said. We've gained a good deal back from the retarded incumbents. They just want to claw back contracts from june through december.

I know. It pissed me right off. Its you guys out east that keep voting him and people like him back in. You have all the power, yet wield it crappily.

It is useful to end any argument by just saying "you're just a goddamn commie" or "damn liberal" etc.

I guess its mutual. Most of the people living in the old Baltic states use the word Capitalism to portray an evil thing that should not be. Much like Arthur uses Communism. So I get where he is coming from.

But when you say someone is liberal in a condescending way, are you really just calling that person a hippie? Damn hippies!

I use "liberal" to designate somebody who thinks he knows what's better for people than they do themselves. They feel free to tell us what we should do because they've heard it from their College Professor, whose insular life has never been that of the common man.

That said, I saw a thread on Slashdot about the 4th of July, and was tickled by a post about the movie "Independence Day" where the hero disables alien spaceships by uploading a Windows virus, but the poster doubts it because their wasn't a message about updating Adobe.

So I had to torrent it to see this movie for myself. I was rolling my eyes just a couple minutes in, due to the statement "the object is 550 km across, with a mass 1/4 that of the moons size!. I swear, didn't those producers graduate the 8th grade? And yet, the yokels have voted this movie as 3.5 out of 5 stars, no doubt because of the explosions happening every 30 seconds or so. And yet, I still believe these yokels could manage their own affairs much better than some dweeb in an office a couple thousand miles away, because their money matters to them. And they still want Obamacare. (Edit: The liberals claim they want Obamacare) Perhaps this is because they imagine that they'll go to the doctor for every little hangnail, threatening a lawsuit if their life-threatening problem isn't fixed RIGHT NOW!.

On the other hand, perhaps my view of "what's important" is skewed.

This roomie I spoke of having the c. diff. has hardly been out of her room all day (landlord says she can't smoke in her room since she was so out of it she could drop the cigarette and set the house on fire or something). Anyway, I just let some of the used beer out and there was fecal matter scattered over the toilet seat, which she hasn't done since it was bad over a week ago. I just called her name, then knocked on the door to no response (AFAIK, she's hard of hearing since getting her left eye shot out driving cab in Boston) so I opened the door. She didn't wake up, but I can see her rib cage going up and down while breathing. 15 min. later I knocked louder, and she groggily asked what's up.

Now we weren't real big on going to the doctor when we were growing up, I remember my dad slung a boot across my mothers head when I was 4? and my sister got upset enough about the blood pulsing out of her head to call the neighbors, who somehow got her to the hospital before she bled out. I remember she was cupping her hands under the flow as if to save the blood, so I helpfully fetched the biggest bowl we had to keep the blood in so the doctors could put it back in. Another time we found our dad alone at one of his drinking buddies houses alone, with a 6 inch gash in his head, probably caused by either falling against the garage door track, or an axe next to the door, or even getting in an argument with the buddies who tried splitting his head with the axe. A couple of years ago, my current landlord went on a bender, and fell off the couch passed out, and I left him on the floor to sleep it off like dear old dad, somebody called for an ambulance and the hospital later claimed he'd had a heart attack laying there, and the cops were threatening me with an investigation or something for not doing what most people would do.

My point about being "uncaring" is that most of the time, people are having a cow over something very minor, like Chicken Little yelling about "The sky is falling".

Hey, if you want to live in pain and die from something you could have had fixed, by all means.

Depending on the government is exactly that.

[EDIT]

I'm constantly nagging these fools playing the state lottery to go with my plan instead, I tell them that North Carolina only returns %66 of their lottery spending, and I can make a computer program that will return %80 percent if they'll only buy my lottery tickets, but of course they thing The Government Knows Best. The 440lb. guy I mentioned earlier has wished several times for more money so he could cash in on the lottery, and I've tried to give him my old computer several times, but he's worried he'll spend all his time watching porn as before, but once he mentioned that he wants to cash in on the penny auctions I haven't mentioned it again.

Hasn't worked out that way for me, and millions like me.

"The Government" saved my aunt for instance. She had breast cancer. After treatment it went into remission. Had she not gotten regular exams and treatment, she would have died from it just like her older sister did (who was too stubborn to get checked out).

Well, sure, if you ignore the money wasted in government overhead, lack of oversight over expenditures, etc. that could have saved so much money and still "saved thousands". (millions? really!)

Free healthcare works around the world without much problem or catastrophic consequences like Arthur describes.

But bamccaig is right, if you ask yourself "Would it work for the U.S.?" the answer is probably not if a lot of people think like Arthur (or similar).

Survival of the fittest and all that. Eat or be eaten. And I thought my grandmothers sister (who went to live there) was bullshitting. Looks like it really is that bad.

Religion "works" (to listen to the fanbois) as well. It's better than total anarchy, but the free market hasn't really had full reign ever. And since it's working so badly in the Gitmo Nation, it doesn't "work around the world". I wish you guys would stop the hyperbole.

If it doesn't work for you guys it means it can't work for the rest of the world?

The red scare is over. Get over it.

The problem in USA I think is a obsession with money.

You dont want free health care because you are worried about losing a couple bucks every month, that will prevent you from buying the latest crap that Apple wants you to buy.

It’s pointless and wasteful consumerism.

I pay taxes, and they go to give free stuff to the guy next door, and Im happy with it. Wow, I missed the latest iteration of the iPhone because I paid taxes that saved some guy life, this system is broken!

Far too many people more interested in their bank balance than their quality of life. People richer than I can possibly imagine, who are depressed.

Despite all the resources, and all the money they have, they are sadder than people I know who can barely make ends meet in other countries, but still know how to live in the moment.

More money seems to be the only way they understand of solving problems...

Same here in South America, lots of people misses the good old days of the USSR.

note of color, my father was a doctor, like many doctors here, paid was optional, many times he got a gift for their service, like eggs, a salame, home made ham, kittens... I remember having a duck for pet like in 1985 that was a gift from a farmer... those were the good days, comrade!

The red scare was one particularly bad symptom of people wanting stuff "for free". Can't you try to keep up here?

My whole extended family and their families lived in a Socialist country. Some of them in Communist countries.

None of them got anything for free. Nor did they want anything for free. If you want to keep up you're gonna have to find a better source of information than what you heard "back in the 60s".

Of course they didn't. TANSTAAFL! But they think they'll get it for free. Because Big Brother promised them.

[EDIT]

More broken promises from Mr. Obama(care) hissownself.

[EDIT2]

Actually, the USSR did very well during those first years after the revolution. Short skirts, free love, free trading, all of that. Until the usual shit floated to the top. I predict that the "free" health care of the EU etc. will fail miserably within 10 years. I also predict Obamacare will fail miserably within a couple of months after October, when it's unleashed against 'Murcia. You'll be able to say "I told you so" a lot quicker that way.

Again, we are clashing because you think the rest of the world thinks like the U.S. people do.

Never did anyone think they will get anything for free. Except healthcare, education and not starving to death (/obviously/) It was much more about being "in it together". They were comrades.

Everyone worked. Everyone worked. Last time I looked it up the unemployment rate was at an all time low of 6% "in the 60s". Salaries were higher by comparison back then. Industry was blooming. GDP was rising.

And there was no Big Brother (EDIT: At least not as powerful as you imply). My father said many things about the Government and never had anything happen to him. Sure, people went away, but people always do.

And, speaking of Big Brother. The U.S. Brother was always the biggest. Then, now, and in the future. So its kinda funny you using the term against socialism.

Where? The US or your own country? And there you go with the hyperbole again, saying "everyone worked" just before you claim an unemployment rate of 6%. I remember getting the newspaper one fine day in the '60's saying "200 millionth baby?" for a humorous bit when the US population exceeded 200 million, and 6% of that really is in "the millions".

Practically everyone then? I'm speaking for my own country of course. Well, I was talking about Yugoslavia.

And why do you think free healthcare will collapse in the EU? You think this is a new thing here that everyone implemented 20 years ago?

And it will probably never collapse. People would be furious. Imagine your convictions and reverse them. That is how fiercely people here support free healthcare.

To me, free healthcare is like freedom of speech to you. The only difference is we still have both, you will soon have neither.

But talk is cheap. Your "free" healthcare costs you, as has been admitted many times, but would it be even cheaper if the free market reigned? We'll never know at this rate. OTOH, health care was still relatively cheap here in the '60's before Medicare really got rolling along with LBJ's "Great Society", you know, the one that started all the yahoos wanting free stuff and ruining their own neighborhoods with such escapades as the Watts Riots when they didn't get it.

[EDIT]

Your profile says Slovenia, so I googled for Slovienia health care, and found this PDF, which says

Emphasis mine.

[EDIT2]

In other words, people aren't toughing it out anymore? I missed that.

Our country is plagued with corruption and inefficiency. That is mostly why the system is shitty. Can't deny that. But then again, I can't argue against my grandmother having eye sight either. Or me being alive for that matter.

Of course you pay through taxes. I went ahead and calculated the net pay here and in the U.S. (could be terribly wrong):

Slovenia (monthly): 1676 USD - all the deductions = 1146 USD   (-31.62%)
USA (weekly):       824  USD - all the deductions = 621  USD   (-24.63%)

Maybe you think 10% more is a lot of money. I personally don't. It pays for health care, social security, pension, primary school, high school, college, etc. I really don't mind, as I have used it too.

I don't care if a few deadbeats mooch off of it. Better that than go rob a convenience store or stab an old lady for her purse.

Now, with such a system, how many people would become such parasites in the U.S.? Probably a different number than here. Two very different worlds indeed.

So you guys are making twice as much to start with? Just what are you doing over there? I'd vote with my feet if I could, or should I say boat. Capitalism FTW!

I'd say that you hit the nail on the head with that remark. You're wrong about the bank balance though. I think a majority of Americans live on credit. Hence, the big housing crisis and bursting bubble. Social status is determined by what you have, and everybody wants to appear upper-middle class, so everybody buys everything on credit. They look wealthy, but in reality they're in debt up to their eyeballs. Hell, even the government is! So basically they don't have any extra money to spend on taxes because they're already buying cars and boats and iPhones on credit. They'd have to pay that extra tax on credit too!

You're funny Arthur!

. It'd be nice if you would. I just started saying things the same way you were talking. Like waking up and looking in a mirror in the morning, you don't always like what you see.

As for your beef with ObamaCare. ObamaCare is more accurately named RomneyCare, and is NOT what anyone wanted, and is most definitely not what is needed. It was a "compromise" that was pushed through after the conservatives refused to even lift a finger past filibustering. The only activity you see from them still is attempts to repeal ObamaCare, after 40+ votes, its still failing.

Little do you know, but your Government spent more money before ObamaCare per capita on health care than we do. And your citizens get much much less for it. Food for thought. So yeah. Our system works better than yours, and is cheaper per capita.

Your costs would go down with a single payer system. But OMG THE RED MENACE!!!!!!OENONEONEONEONEOKKKKK

Of course it did, due to government meddling running the price up. "Oh, pad the bill for 50%, the government's paying for it". Later -- "What? But we've been charging X amount!".

HAH. The people charge more BECAUSE the govt is paying for stuff, because they can. But a lot of the costs came in when people couldn't pay the exorbitant fees private hospitals charge. Then the costs end up being paid by insurance and the gov't which raises fees for the average person. Could just have a single payer system instead, and lower costs.

Here the Gov't tends to say "Nope, we'll only pay X amount. Deal with it."

And the doctors do deal with it, by getting jobs in the USA. In all fairness, I imagine that there is a compromise between them. In theory, I certainly believe that "free" health care can be a good thing, but in practice I'd say that it hasn't been in Canada (or at least Ontario).

In high school one of my friends went to the hospital because she had pain in her gut/stomach and they basically told her that it was nothing and sent her home (I imagine she waited several hours for this diagnosis, but I don't remember). An hour later she returned to the hospital in unbearable pain. Turns out that she had internal bleeding for reasons that I forget and at this point was moments from death. They rushed her into surgery or something and managed to save her.

Years ago my uncle had a run in involving a coffee table, and basically got the same treatment. He fought the advice to go to the hospital for days, but finally went when he could no longer ignore the symptoms. They said it was nothing and he'd be fine and sent him home. A day or two later he was driving to work and realized that something was definitely wrong. Apparently he was basically passing out by the time he got to the emergency room (he drove himself). Turns out that he had 3 broken ribs and they were causing internal bleeding. It was the same story. They managed to save his life, but it was a close call.

There are valid arguments on both sides of the fence. I've seen "free" health care done wrong. I haven't experienced it done right yet, but I trust that others have. Regardless, I'd say that it's important for the people representing government to be unable to exploit the system, while simultaneously giving them the power and responsibility to make sure the actors in the system don't exploit it either. I think it's a difficult thing to attain, especially in a society where people aren't brought up with honesty, honor, and morals being core to their existence.

That's the crux of the matter right there.

People like to say that, but its always greener on the other side. Yesterday was always better than today, and today is always better than tomorrow.

I tend to think:

yesterday < today < tomorrow

And people have been complaining about the newer generations since... Well, since there's been more than one generation of people.

This is the way it should work!

Oklahoma City hospital posts surgery prices online; creates bidding war