I think fat people should have to buy skinny, hungry people dinners.

In our constitution, every citizen has a fundamental right to being healthy, educated and generally not left to rot out on the street. (Note: most people don't use the 2nd one)

Its something basic, that is why its free. It is indeed very patriotic to be pro health care. People look down on people who disagree. To us, you're still greedy imperialist pigs. Capitalism is your way of spreading your evil seed. We are fighting it though...

Now excuse me while I get my hammer and sickle and go fight the good fight.

I see your point. Health care for anyone who might get sick or injured is really the same as food for anyone who might get hungry.

When do they take your compassion away? During the brain-washing in schools where you pledge allegiance?

Your point being? What, that people game the system? Some people will always game the system. Does that mean the less fortunate majority should be punished for it?

Its the same stupid argument people here try to use to abolish free education. If you're signed up in a school you have a lot of benefits plus you can find work more easily through "student services" a kind of work agencies.

EDIT: So people sign up for school and go to work through these agencies and make a lot of money while being insured for free and getting free meals for free for 1 year. Potential for abuse, you say?

Well, I looked it up, the failure rates are not higher than anywhere else. A small minority is exploiting this, but the majority is using it to, well, actually get an education without being crippled by debt. (EDIT: Let me clarify, you have two free sign ups, if you fail, the next ones are all payable)

Its not based on logic or reason. Its the same as with you. And when you have nothing else to say, you use convenient labels like "liberal" and "third world countries".

And I never understood it, what is wrong with being liberal?

Well facts and reason play a big role in my book.

But again, using the "I'm old, therefore I'm wise and don't need to defend my viewpoints" card is so much like you, Arthur.

But I agree, reasoning with a brick wall is pointless, especially when said brick wall is basing its opinions on emotion like cynicism.

And in case you have been living under a rock, time has already told, the most advanced countries in the world (based on living conditions) have free universal healthcare and are: guess what, its not the U.S.

The Communism card? Arthur, think harder. No European country is communistic...

No. Just no. People do not want to be dependent on Government help. People actually want to, you know, have a job and make their own money.

But anyone can talk, right? By your logic, countries with universal health care and social security will actually have more deadbeats, right? Why work when I can get those 300€ a month, right?

Unemployment rate by country

Slovakia:       14.5%
Poland:         10.8%
Hungary:        10.6
Sweden:         8.4%
Finland:        8.2%
United Kingdom: 7.7%
U.S.:           7.6%
Czech Republic: 7.2%
Denmark:        7.0%
Luxembourg:     5.6%
Germany:        5.4%
Austria:        4.9%
Norway:         3.5%
Switzerland:    3%

My, my! People actually don't all want to be leeches? That's actually... not that surprising.

The Government is already forcing you to pay taxes under the threat of imprisonment.

I'll forget about the leeches part, as I've debunked that above. Losers? I cannot count the number of people I know who have been saved from poverty by our (otherwise shabby) social service.

My family was on the breaking point and without help we would have been thrown into poverty so deep I am doubtful we would have gotten out. Were my parents losers that they had 6 children? Maybe. Am I a loser for being born into a poor family? Well, probably not.

Today, my mother has a great job, my father has a job, my siblings are all getting schooled and on their way to better futures.

And most people are such people, victims of their circumstances. Leeches and losers are in the minority.

Well, in your system, I bet we would become part of some gang or become delinquents with a grim future. For the people... You make me laugh.

But lets agree to disagree. I'm tired of being reasonable with a person so obviously filled with the classic American "Commie Scum" propaganda.

I don't see how the society benefits from that third getting some horrible minimum wage job to pay for the cheap horrible food, and then rolling around like fat slobs. It's probably cheaper to feed people with free good food, as it will lead to less health problems down the line.

It's ok though... this will happen inevitably with automation. All the minimum wage jobs that are displaced by machines will not be suddenly replaced by highly educated mechanics... and once we get robotic mechanics even that job will be gone.

The future is a future of massive unemployment, and unless we setup up mechanisms to deal with it, it won't be a happy paradise it could be.

Hah! I have to disagree with you Vanneto. I believed what you did once, that for the most part people on welfare don't want to be on welfare. My ex-brother-in-law and all his little chronic welfare friends completely changed my beliefs however.

He and his friends would blow their entire welfare cheques on cigarettes and booze and then hit up the Food Bank and Soup Kitchen for food. You can only use the Food Bank once a month though so that meant that my ex-wife and I were constantly buying him groceries so he could feed his 2 kids. Finally children's aid took his kids away because he was too lazy to even take care of them... He was given a list of conditions he had to fulfill to get his kids back and he couldn't even get past step 1; Obtain employment. He did manage to get a job cleaning supermarkets but was fired a week later for smoking pot in the parking lot and leaving half way through his shift to bang his new girlfriend (who also got pregnant). When it became evident that he wasn't getting his kids back and I wasn't going to be giving him any more handouts he fucked off and left town. Last I heard he's got another baby in London Ontario that children's aid society also won't let him near.

TLDR; My ex-brother-in-law is a total dirtbag who is quite happy to be on welfare and laughs when you tell him to get a job.

I think it's all about the attitude you are brought up with. My parents always taught me that being on welfare is shameful and means that you can't support yourself. My ex-bro-in-law was brought up on welfare, so naturally he thinks it's a great way to live, and why not? He has no ambition beyond smoking pot and getting laid (without contraception of course). Guess what? He can get that with his welfare cheque. The province even pays his rent for cryin' out loud.

@Samuel Henderson: so, your ex-brother-in-law and his friends are the majority of people? Canada must be a small place eh.

You want personal anecdotes? Right now I have a cab driving buddy who gets $1500 a month from the government because he's "disabled" (i.e. too fat to work). He was holding pretty steady at 192Kg (425 lbs) for a couple of years, but now he's 200Kg. He's 172 cm tall. He's working as a cab driver to make a bit more money, but he doesn't report it because it'd hurt his check or something like that. He was diagnosed with diabetes about two years ago, and the insulin etc. takes a couple hundred dollars a month. He's also a real doormat, giving out free rides to other cab drivers and paying significant amounts of money for goofy reasons. Last week he paid $31 for a cheap plastic flashlight with 3 LED's that's too weak to illuminate address numbers from the street, but it has a flashing red light that might be seen on a street with no streetlights, and it has a "siren" that could be heard 100 meters away by a person with good hearing if there was total silence otherwise. He bought it from a cab driving woman that he likes (she's married) and they don't have a car, and he's always hauling them around to the store or whatever and they might throw him $5 once every three or four rides. There's another girl he likes, he's driven over to the next town to get this girl and another girl several times to bring them back to a bar and they didn't even mention giving him any money for the ride. You might say that it's OK to give free rides to your buddies, but if you're going to use somebody else's car without permission when you're supposed to be using it to make money for you and the boss, it's not so cool. This other girl was a cab driver too, and he paid her $200+ to get a Batman tattoo on her left buttock. She spent the money on tires. I have to confess I've taken advantage of him too. Mar 2011 he paid me $100 to cut all the hair off my head because he "wanted to see what I looked like". It was pretty funny though, because nobody recognized me until I spoke, and I trolled quite a few people as the "silent asshole bully".

I'm scared it'll wind up like car insurance. You have to keep paying the insurance company or supposedly the highway patrol will send someone to your house to take the tag off your car, but I've never actually heard of that happening.

OTOH, about three years ago a woman I was working for had a cab hit quite hard and on purpose by a couple marines in a jeep, and the cops caught them a mile away trying to switch seats. It didn't really matter though, because they were both well over the limit. Anyway, this woman contacted their insurance company to get the money to repair what eventually was $3000 damage, but this company was making excuses like "We have to send a letter to his home of record in Pennsylvania to make sure nobody stole his car and collided with yours". She replied that they didn't have to do that because he was IN JAIL at the moment for wrecking her car and DUI. They still wouldn't do anything, so she hired a lawyer. Eventually the lawyer wouldn't answer her calls as to why he wasn't doing anything, and she just gave up. I guess the insurance company though it was cheaper to bribe him than pay the $3000. I told her to complain to the North Carolina Bar Assn. but she wouldn't bother. I asked her for the name of the lawyer and the name of the insurance company, but she wouldn't say.

There's another cab driver that was sitting at a stop sign about that time, and a marine in a pickup truck T-boned his cab at 40 mph (65 kph), his car was totaled and he was seriously injured to the tune of $43K of hospital bills. Same thing, he hired a lawyer because the insurance wouldn't pay up, and then the lawyer wouldn't answer calls, etc.

I can easily imagine the same thing will happen with Obamacare.

[EDIT]

I've seen maybe 20 instances personally where people with pride were suddenly homeless or whatever due to fire etc., and they literally pulled themselves up by their bootstraps to having a job and a place to live within two weeks, and a year later were back on track as "normal people". Around here somebody on welfare and/or food stamps is pretty much making a career out of it. I've hauled several of them as regulars for years from low-income housing to the Wal Mart, nail salon, hairdresser, drug dealers etc.