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E3 2010
Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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I've also heard that MS was planning to embrace and extinguish the console platforms, so every game would run on Windows. This doesn't jive with the failures though, but MS is known for shooting themselves in the foot.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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bamccaig said:

I haven't personally used the MotionPlus yet, but I've heard professional reviewers say that it still wasn't tracking their movements perfectly.

I've had occasion to play Wii now and then, and it works fine, so I guess I'm looking for something more than "so and so said it wasn't so there" before some video from their competition convinces me it's doing something they're not.

Quote:

And I expect there to be a lot more adult titles for the PlayStation obviously, which is good for me; an adult. You have fun though with Mario and Zelda. :-/

I would if I had any of them. It's all academic to me; very few modern games impress me much to be honest. I have access to my roommate's Wii and XBox 360, but I hardly ever play them. All I know is Sony doing nothing innovative, and this is itself nothing new.

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Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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bamccaig said:

Except that their customers aren't pissed off. That's the clever part. Those idiots don't even mind! :o

So how exactly is this clever? How is it a cheap little gimmick and what is the purpose of said gimmick?

What really bothers me, though, is that I'm not disagreeing with your point, I'm just arguing semantics with you. But you won't even admit to poor word choice.

relpatseht
Member #5,034
September 2004
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Kinect, from what I hear from the devs (though, granted, this info is back from when Natal was still under NDA) doesn't work very well at all.

The way it works is with an infrared depth camera. At the time of research and development, they were investigating two options.
Option 1 worked by sending out a beam of light for a very small amount of time then, when it bounced back, cutting off the signal midway and measuring the length of the light at individual points.
Option 2 basically projected a grid and used the distance between the reflected intersections to generated depth.

Now, Option 1 was buggy, only works at very specific ranges, has high resolution, a lot of noise, and was expensive.
Option 2 had a lower resolution, but worked from a much broader range of distances and had very little noise in the output. Not to mention it was cheaper.

The devs recommended Option 2, the obvious choice I'd say, however, Microsoft went with option 1.

So, Kinect has some lag from all the processing on the depth image necessary due to the background noise and does make some errors, and good luck using it if you aren't ~5-12 feet from the tv screen.

Though, this is all from back when Kinect was still under R&D, so it may have changed since, but I doubt it.

furinkan
Member #10,271
October 2008
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Zelda: Skyward Sword is cell shaded, probably adds nothing to the series, and will fall short of being great... Just like all the other cell shaded games.

Oh, Nintendo! No matter how many times you let me down, I just keep coming back for more disappointment.

(Another Ocarina release? They beat that title to hell.)

IonBlade
Member #3,521
May 2003
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Dario: Here's a high quality version of the new Mortal Kombat in action, just found this: http://e3.gamespot.com/video/6266626/

Looks quite fun ;D

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Neil Walker
Member #210
April 2000
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bamccaig said:

I haven't personally used the MotionPlus yet,

My gripe is I prefer not to use those stupid skins and the motion plus is so badly designed it's got lumps and bumps sticking out and it makes holding it so uncomfortable that you're almost forced to wear the skin. Not only does it feel wrong but it makes charging a pain in the arse.

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Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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So, what picked your interest on the E3 this year?

Here's a little roundup on the stuff I liked. They're mostly sequels or remakes:
Marvel Vs Capcom 3 - FTW(Fate of Two Worlds :P). Gameplay videos!

video

Donkey Kong Country Returns

video

Mortal Kombat 9 Demo

video

Portal 2 Demo
Part 1, look for the other parts by yourself. :P

video

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Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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Did you notice that almost all the games are remakes? Not that that's a bad thing. It seems that the companies are starting to make sequels that the gamers actually want; Mortal Kombat has the blood and gore and 2d gameplay.

3rd person 3D gameplay doesn't seem to be easy to pull off. Perhaps it only works well for certain types of games.

I hadn't seen the Portal parts 2 and 3.... wow... holy holy wow... that looks so badass. :o I can't. fucking. wait.

I'm a little bummed about the DK game. It has a lot of gameplay elements that I was putting into my platform game so now they won't seem as original.

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Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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Did you notice that almost all the games are remakes?

The gaming industry needs a reboot like that. I've noticed that new videogames are REALLY bloated, and now they're working on simple things that work well.

Maybe 3D games will work well the day we got real 3D screens. 8-)

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Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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Dario ff said:

I've noticed that new videogames are REALLY bloated

I noticed that too. Perhaps the "casual gaming" craze that the industry has been going through has forced game designers to really clean up the playability. We have more graphics and processing speed than before, but that doesn't mean the games need to do more.

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I like the look of some of the new games that James Rolfe previewed at E3. Though it kinda looks like a few of them are copies of each other.. Epic Mickey and Epic Yarn to name a couple. Not that they don't look neat... But they even share the same prefix, and similar game mechanic ideas (oh look, lets use some strange kind of material as the mechanics like yarn or paint).

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Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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Another thing that was of my interest on this E3 was Fallout: New Vegas. It's a shame it's built on the same engine as Failout 3, but Obsidian(formed by some old Black Isle employees) seem to have improved the game a lot. Damage Treshold, Strength Requirements for weapons, Improved FPS gameplay with iron-sights... That doesn't take out the idiotic VATS though. :-/ And I expect to see much better writing from Obsidian, F3's retarded plot made me cringe. But still... no shadows on the engine! :o

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Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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Epic Mickey and Epic Yarn

Haha, I love it when trends collide. I bet it comes from the trendy use of "Epic Win" and "Epic Fail".

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Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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Epic has become totally overused nowadays.

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Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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Last time I heard someone say "epic fail" it was for something stupid, like, dropping a spoon.

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BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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bamccaig said:

That's not a good defense.

I happen to like Kinect.

Quote:

We haven't actually seen the Kinect work. Not precisely. We've seen Microsoft demonstrate it, but everything they've shown can easily be done with camera tricks. I found it interesting that they were demonstrating casual games instead of more interesting game ideas. I honestly don't think controlling things with your body is going to be as fun as people imagine it to be. I think it'll more than likely prove to be poor at tracking people or easily confused and don't really expect Kinect to live up to anyone's expectations. We'll still have to wait and see though.

And we've seen Move working, precisely, without the possibility for camera tricks?

Quote:

It allegedly tracks you. We'll have to wait and see. The Move is apparently responsive in less than a frame (has the same latency as the SIXAXIS/Dual Shock 3 controllers). I wonder what the Kinect will have.

It apparently tracks you, and does so without holding any silly looking goofball thingies. I'm not seeing the difference here, you take everything about Kinect with extreme skepticism (which is fine, I'm skeptical about it, but I'm also skeptical about Move), yet take everything Sony says about Move as cold hard truth.

Quote:

Well, the 360 for one. How many people had to send them away? Something like 40%? Many had to send them away multiple times! And they were still failing 3 years after launch! I don't even know if they've finally fixed that problem.

Okay, so they had a problem. And they stood behind the product still, losing untold amounts of money. But yes, they have been fixed. Several recent chipsets have very low failure rates.

Quote:

There's also Halo and Gears of War and.... These are not good games, IMHO. They're actually pretty watered down and crappy. Yet they're toted as huge games and the 360 gamers think they're the greatest ever...

What do you consider good games then? I enjoyed Halo and Gears. I also think Forza 3 is far superior to Gran Turismo, at least from what I've seen in the demo.

bamccaig said:

Except that their customers aren't pissed off. That's the clever part. Those idiots don't even mind!

What's the point in getting pissed off? Do you actually think Microsoft likes having to repair countless systems due to a design flaw? Believe me, it's in everybody's best interest to fix the problem. And from what I can tell, they have. They're down from a 16+% failure rate to below 4% (typical failure rate for any product is 3-5%).

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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BAF said:

I'm not seeing the difference here, you take everything about Kinect with extreme skepticism (which is fine, I'm skeptical about it, but I'm also skeptical about Move), yet take everything Sony says about Move as cold hard truth.

Grammar fail. The technology that Move uses is tried and tested. It makes sense and there's really nothing surprising about it. There's no reason to doubt them. The only doubts I have are latency, since using my PlayStation Eye I can absolutely notice lag, but maybe the internal sensors make that a non-issue.

BAF said:

And they stood behind the product still, losing untold amounts of money.

They didn't have a choice. It's been a while, but IIRC they were slow to respond at first (I think they even denied that there was a problem). Eventually, it became clear that it was such a big issue that not addressing it would have destroyed the "platform". It wouldn't have been long before the last 360 was ever sold. Spending the money they did was still less than they would have lost if they didn't. As usual, they screwed consumers and bit the bullet when held at gun point.

BAF said:

What do you consider good games then? I enjoyed Halo and Gears. I also think Forza 3 is far superior to Gran Turismo, at least from what I've seen in the demo.

When I tried Halo I was extremely disappointed after all of the things I had heard about it. This was years ago, of course, but the experience of Halo was just so watered down compared to other games I had played. Halo 2 and 3 don't seem to have improved much at all, though I can't be bothered to play them either. It's still the same watered down bullshit. My colleague, who has a 360 and likes the series, agrees. After having defended Halo 3 when it was first released, he returned to admit that it was pretty crappy and that it even had some serious bug that almost prevented you from completing the game IIRC. The "universe" doesn't seem feasible to me and that ruins any fun I could possibly have. I don't mind some imagination. I mind contradictions and fallacies.

The Gears of War series is just ridiculous. The dimensions of the characters are STUPID and completely infeasible. And all of them are like that. The weapons are pretty stupid too. A chainsaw bayonet?! I can't even stand to play such bullshit. I want realistic games! Let me play a character that I can actually believe myself to be! The camera angle and controls were also bad.

I think Halo and Gears are completely overrated. I don't know anything about "Forza", but I know that the Gran Turismo series has been the leader in realistic racing for almost 15 years. It requires a lot of practice to enjoy the game because it's designed for race enthusiasts who enjoy the realism. The only thing it's lacked is realistic crashes/damage. I'm hoping GT5 has that, but that's really not what the game is about anyway (if you're doing it right you shouldn't crash).

BAF said:

What's the point in getting pissed off?

If I had to deal with the hassle of shipping my console off (due to a pretty major flaw in the system experienced by many) I would be pissed off. You shouldn't have to. That should have been caught during testing of the original product. I honestly can't believe it wasn't. I wonder if it was actually cheaper to eat shipping and repair costs versus throwing away the already produced consoles and eating the cost of a redesign in the beginning. Who can really say though?

BAF said:

Do you actually think Microsoft likes having to repair countless systems due to a design flaw?

I know they don't have a choice.

BAF said:

They're down from a 16+% failure rate to below 4% (typical failure rate for any product is 3-5%).

According to the Internets, failure rates were more like 40%. Some said 30, others said 40, more still said 50%! Microsoft naturally denies this.

ReyBrujo
Moderator
January 2001
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About Kinetic, while the camera can recognize any number of persons, it can only track the movements of two (the processing power of the Xbox 360 can't handle any more). Also, it has serious problems when you are seated, so even to handle the menu system you must be standing up. NeoGAF is bashing it pretty heavily.

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Finally, who won E3? Apparently, Apple.

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Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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ReyBrujo said:

Finally, who won E3? Apparently, Apple [www.neogaf.com].

After reading that article it seems like Macworld is the one who is "out of touch". :-/

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OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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One word for all of them - gimmicks. While intriguing way of controlling a game, I'd rather have even the gamepad than this. That way I'd take a ride on my bike than waving my hands furiously in front of the TV. Not to mention I'm not getting a console any time soon.

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Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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Wait... so games that use Kinect must be downgraded? For example, something so power-hungry like GTA IV or Red Dead Redemption must be left out or otherwise it'll lag? I would've guessed Kinect had its own little CPU.

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ReyBrujo
Moderator
January 2001
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It used to, but to lower costs they decided to use the Xbox 360 CPU instead.

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BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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bamccaig said:

The technology that Move uses is tried and tested. It makes sense and there's really nothing surprising about it.

Tried and tested? It's about as tested as Kinect is. I don't see how you can think Move's premise is any more proven than Kinect's.

Quote:

They didn't have a choice. It's been a while, but IIRC they were slow to respond at first (I think they even denied that there was a problem). Eventually, it became clear that it was such a big issue that not addressing it would have destroyed the "platform". It wouldn't have been long before the last 360 was ever sold. Spending the money they did was still less than they would have lost if they didn't. As usual, they screwed consumers and bit the bullet when held at gun point.

They did have a choice. They could have just given up and shut down the XBox division. I don't think they were too slow to respond. Maybe they denied it was a problem (as Sony or anyone else would do) but I'm pretty sure they were still handling warranty claims for it. I don't see how they screwed consumers...

Quote:

I think Halo and Gears are completely overrated. I don't know anything about "Forza", but I know that the Gran Turismo series has been the leader in realistic racing for almost 15 years. It requires a lot of practice to enjoy the game because it's designed for race enthusiasts who enjoy the realism. The only thing it's lacked is realistic crashes/damage. I'm hoping GT5 has that, but that's really not what the game is about anyway (if you're doing it right you shouldn't crash).

There are many people, including me, who think Halo and Gears are great. As far as Forza, it's one of the top racing simulators - right up there with GT.

And "if you're doing it right" is a cheap cop-out for something that should have been there. It's like ignoring crashes in a flight simulator - "if you're doing it right, you shouldn't crash." In fact, realistic damage makes it all the more fun, but I wouldn't expect you to admit that.

Quote:

If I had to deal with the hassle of shipping my console off (due to a pretty major flaw in the system experienced by many) I would be pissed off. You shouldn't have to. That should have been caught during testing of the original product. I honestly can't believe it wasn't. I wonder if it was actually cheaper to eat shipping and repair costs versus throwing away the already produced consoles and eating the cost of a redesign in the beginning. Who can really say though?

They were continually redesigning it. Look at all the different chipsets they've pumped out, the latest of which have almost completely gotten rid of the problem. You get pissed off when MS tells you to pound salt, but when they're actively working to make it all expenses paid for you (most warranty claims require you to cover return shipping), and speedy (anyone I've heard talking about getting an RROD got theirs back within a week or so), there's not much more they can do.

Quote:

I know they don't have a choice.

As mentioned above, they do. They may have been legally bound to make it right, but they could have halted further support/sales/etc and shut down the XBox division, due to the hemmhoraging of money. But they kept pushing.

Quote:

According to the Internets, failure rates were more like 40%. Some said 30, others said 40, more still said 50%! Microsoft naturally denies this.

No. I looked up multiple sets of numbers. Those high numbers are affected consoles. Just because the console is affected by the problem doesn't mean it fails.

Dario ff said:

Wait... so games that use Kinect must be downgraded? For example, something so power-hungry like GTA IV or Red Dead Redemption must be left out or otherwise it'll lag? I would've guessed Kinect had its own little CPU.

Not necessarily. Remember, the reason these games are so power-hungry has a lot to do with the graphics. The GPU is doing most of the work here, so adding some more load to the CPU isn't as huge of a deal.

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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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ReyBrujo's link leads you to IGN. IGN seems concerned about the Kinect.

BAF said:

Tried and tested? It's about as tested as Kinect is. I don't see how you can think Move's premise is any more proven than Kinect's.

The PlayStation Move basically works by using a camera to track brightly colored spheres with known sizes, which can be used to determine angle and distance from the camera, which is enough to determine 3D coordinates. On top of that, I think it has internal sensors to detect movement to further enhance the accuracy. Nothing there is surprising though. Being able to identify and track a human's limbs is new, however.

BAF said:

They did have a choice. They could have just given up and shut down the XBox division.

They would have lost even more money doing that. That was even less of an option. Once you've invested that much money into something you have to try to cut your losses. Cutting and running would have made every expense a complete loss (probably many millions), not to mention the permanent stain on their name. That would have cut into Windows and Office sales. The repairs and shipping is probably expensive, but the profits they make from continuing sales (especially game sales, which is where consoles make most profit anyway) probably more than accounts for it.

BAF said:

I don't think they were too slow to respond. Maybe they denied it was a problem (as Sony or anyone else would do) but I'm pretty sure they were still handling warranty claims for it.

Denying the faulty hardware wasn't to avoid warranty claims. Obviously the systems that had failed during the warranty period were covered. They were trying to prevent people from not buying them, insisting that there was nothing really wrong with them when there clearly was (and I still can't imagine how nobody caught it before the launch date). Funnily enough, different iterations continued to suffer from the same problems! Come on, how hard is it to build a reliable system?! When you're trying to get sales based on a really cheap price apparently it's very hard. Obviously if the 360 had costed the same as the PS3 they never would have sold any.

BAF said:

There are many people, including me, who think Halo and Gears are great.

Many more people think that FarmVille is great. ::) That makes people stupid. It doesn't make the game good.

BAF said:

As far as Forza, it's one of the top racing simulators - right up there with GT.

I was watching a demo of an IGN representative playing Forza with the Kinect. He was passing people every 3 seconds. I don't know if the game is dumbed down because of the inferior control scheme, or if they had them driving Ferarris against Volkswagens to make them feel good about themselves and the product, but it was certainly not realistic. He wasn't doing a good job, but he was making up spot after spot. That's no simulation. It was an arcade game.

BAF said:

And "if you're doing it right" is a cheap cop-out for something that should have been there. It's like ignoring crashes in a flight simulator - "if you're doing it right, you shouldn't crash." In fact, realistic damage makes it all the more fun, but I wouldn't expect you to admit that.

I already admitted that. It would be fun to play around with. Causing big wrecks, etc. However, creating a realistic simulation that captures just the normal racing is a lot of work in itself. The extra stuff adds that much more time onto development. Whether or not its worth it, I can't say. I doubt it would make the game truly enjoyable to the non-enthusiast and the enthusiast probably won't waste too much time with it. I'd certainly like it to be there, but I can't fault the series for that considering everything they do so well.

BAF said:

They were continually redesigning it. Look at all the different chipsets they've pumped out, the latest of which have almost completely gotten rid of the problem.

Oh, well, that's my bad. I didn't know that they've finally almost completely gotten rid of the problem. ::)

BAF said:

You get pissed off when MS tells you to pound salt, but when they're actively working to make it all expenses paid for you (most warranty claims require you to cover return shipping), and speedy (anyone I've heard talking about getting an RROD got theirs back within a week or so), there's not much more they can do.

I've heard of it taking a month+ to get your 360 back. Probably not a problem in New York State. ::) If Microsoft really wanted to take a hit for it they would have spent the money to redesign the system from day 120 when they admitted the problem and then sent replacements to all consumers. Sure, it would have cost them a lot of money, but at least they'd be owning up to their cheapness. Instead, they forced consumers to run their machine until it fried, ship it to Microsoft, wait for them to repair it and ship it back, and then run it again until it fried again. ::) Way to go, Microsoft. Somebody give them an award or something.

BAF said:

As mentioned above, they do. They may have been legally bound to make it right, but they could have halted further support/sales/etc and shut down the XBox division, due to the hemmhoraging of money. But they kept pushing.

Again, the real money comes from game and peripheral sales. The losses on the console repairs were nothing compared to the profits. Again, had they just outright fixed the problem and recalled the poorly designed machines, that might have cost them a lot, but instead they forced consumers to live with the problem. I wonder how many people had to stop playing when temperature rose above freezing for fear of frying their machine and having to wait a week to play again and then doing it all over again the week after that.

BAF said:

No. I looked up multiple sets of numbers. Those high numbers are affected consoles. Just because the console is affected by the problem doesn't mean it fails.

And the rest just stop playing when it heats up just in case? :P

BAF said:

Not necessarily. Remember, the reason these games are so power-hungry has a lot to do with the graphics. The GPU is doing most of the work here, so adding some more load to the CPU isn't as huge of a deal.

The graphics are only part of it. There's also a lot of interactions that need to be processed every frame. The 360 is already limited for what it can do. It's been noted that it struggles with GTA IV, for example, and IIRC that MGS4 wouldn't even be able to run on it. It has limited processing power. Nobody doubts that except for you.

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