So there is this cute and nice girl at a sub shop in town that I've been meaning to ask out and I finally just did. Even though it seems taboo cause she's at work and has to be nice, etc. In any case, she said she has a boyfriend. But she said we could still be friends. So I said that would be cool too. Friends. Sigh. She wrote her phone number and name on a card. I didn't really introduce myself or give her my name, though she should have learned it a week or two ago when she personally offered to start a counting card (i.e., 10 subs and the next one is free), which has my full name on it. Still, there's a good chance she's forgotten (especially since I've bought like 4 subs since then and none of them seem to remember that I have a card with them)...

In any case, now I have her name and number, but can only really do friend things. I don't even know what would qualify... I mean, I could always invite her to join myself and friends for something, but I don't have [m]any friends, so if I was going to invite her to something it would probably be just us two (and whoever she happened to invite), which just seems weird... I don't have any ideas for what kinds of things friends would get together for anyway. I don't really know what to do.

I could just not call her and pretend it never happened. That certainly seems easiest. Though I do like getting subs from that place (only place in town anymore) so I'll inevitably run into her again. It would be silly to act like there's an elephant in the room or whatever. On the other hand, I could always make things worse by calling her and asking to do something she's not comfortable with... Ugh.

So I guess I'm seeking advice. Should I just let the friendship offer go stale and maybe hope she becomes available in the future and it comes up in casual conversation? Should I take her up on the friendship offer and call her to do something? But what? Should I forget about her entirely and stop eating subs?

Discuss.

Is she and her boyfriend linked with exploding necklaces? If not, just give it a shot and see what happens.

Give what a shot?

Pretend she doesn't have a boyfriend.

In my experience, friendship just happens naturally, or it doesn't. Next time you order a sub, see if she seems open to a bit of chatting. If she does, go with the flow; if she doesn't, don't worry about it. But I think any situation where someone feels the need to say explicitly "we can be friends" is a situation where you probably can't be. If you can be friends, you will just know it and no one will need to say it. It's more likely she felt bad for you, was trying to make you feel better, and isn't astute enough to realise that offering to be friends isn't going to work. (Few people are.) So don't be too hopeful.

Don't worry about it either. If you don't ask, you'll never know. She won't be thinking badly of you. You've also just gained +1 XP. (Don't say that to a girl, unless of course you have your heart set on a gamer girl and can take the odd looks you'll get in your less than refined approach to identifying them.)

Women are lying treacherous creatures so you still have a shot with her. But remember, if she does end up going for you then she's going to do the same thing to you

I think she was just letting you down nicely.

kids....

Uh, what the hell is a sub in your meaning? I think I got that right, but looking just at these two sentences above a lot of things come to mind...

Anyway I think you think too much about it. I would second Bruce on this - friendship just happens, it's not like on Facebook: "let's be friends" - "um, okay". It's a continuous process where the involved parties get to know each other.

She's sending you mixed signals. She may have a boyfriend or she may have said she did because she didn't know you very well, but it sounds like she's keeping her options open here...

In any case, she said she was willing to be friends, so be her friend first, and maybe you'll get to be her boyfriend second. Take her out to somewhere neutral, like a musuem or art gallery. If she still likes you, try going to a concert or a show together somewhere.

You should fix this. Apologize for not telling her your name and introduce yourself properly next time you see her. If she already knows, no big deal.

That would be pretty rude. Don't be a chicken. You wanted to get to know her, so get to know her! Worry about getting nookie some other time.

What?! I haven't even shaken her hand yet!

In this context a sub is a submarine sandwich.

So the general consensus seems to be that it was an ill-advised attempt to let me down gently and that I should just ignore it. That part's simple. The hard part though is, do I stop going to the sub shop, or if I do go back and run into her, do I just pretend there is an elephant in the room (i.e., not talk about it unless she brings it up)?

Append: until Edgar came along and threw the balance all off.

I'd say you're overthinking this. Just let it flow.

1. You like her. Keep going back (as long as she's not dropping hints about restraining orders).
2. Trying to think of what to say in advance never works because you can't think of how her end of the conversation is going to differ from your imaginary script.
3. If you freeze up or "get stiff" because you're afraid, well it sucks to be you. Just keep going in the hope that this will ease your fear through attrition.
4. If the above fails, keep doing the previous three things over and over (with various girls) and you'll hook up eventually. "Eventually" sounds like a death sentence right now, but think of how recent 6 months ago seems compared to 6 months in the future.

I would expect nothing less from bambam!

The best thing to do is to just mind your own business, never talk to women at all, and enjoy being free to spend your money on a bunch of crap you'll never need or use.

Not over-thinking it is what got me in this mess. The only time it just flows for me is when I'm drunk, and in that case I'm probably less than refined.

My current plan is to just keep going back when I'm in the mood for a sub, but to not really bring up the friendship thing (and not call her). This way if she was really just being nice then everybody is hopefully happy and no harm done. If she happens to push for friendship or otherwise in some way then I can react on the spot.

I'd say you have to fix that first then.

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I keed I keed..

@kazzmir
That's in really poor taste, dude.

BAMBAM NEEDS SOME MOTIVATION

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My advice is identical to Bruce Perry's.

Other than that, I'd say you should go get a sub there every day, all while apologizing for not getting subs more often. Be sure to maintain dead-lock eye contact at her the whole time. Also, make sure you constantly reiterate how you guys are "friends" and when you say "friends" make sure you say it like it's the most treasured thing in the world. And always keep eye contact. Then, after about a week, put her in an awkward situation where she misunderstands something you said, putting her in check-mate for going out on a date. A day before your date, go by her work and tell her you can't wait for the two of you to get to share one another's hopes and dreams - give her a teaser and tell her how you know that she's everything you've dreamed of. Maintain. constant. eye contact. When she doesn't show up to the date, go to her work the next day and talk about how you treasure her friendship, and even though she didn't show up, you understood how she must have been very busy with her family or something because you know that she wouldn't just ditch you, cause friends don't do that and the two of you are friends because she told you so. Tell her you trust her with all of your heart and what the two of you share is more valuable to you than any treasure.

Then rape her.

I'd give friends a stab. If you're a 'better fit', she will inevitably begin fighting with her boyfriend, break up with him, and leap into your arms.

... and this thread is the reason nobody wonders why we have so few female forum members
Rape.

That's how it seems at first, you must subtly warn her against putting you on a pedestal. Otherwise, when she finds out you, like every other guy (except this one) puts his pants on one leg at a time, she's doomed to disappointment. But make sure she does understand it's a much better fit overall. But tame the drinking first.

dude she gave you her number, you have hope, even if friends, she could hook you up wit her her friends. Dont over think it. Gain confidence and hit on women at the same time, when you're single, you shouldn't put your eggs in one basket.

This is also a danger if you do your very best in everything. Being the "mostest awesome guy evar" is a full time job in itself, and they'll all think they're not in your league. I hesitate to mention my own experience in this matter due to my extreme modesty, but IIRC Derezo mentioned this a year or so ago.

I never said anything about "kids", I meant by maturity, not physical.

This.

I don't have much experience with following through, but I've got a heck of a experience with backing down. You're doing it. You've got a chance. You've got nothing to lose. Go for broke! Why shouldn't she be the one who feels awkward when you come into that shop again?</bad advice>
She gave you her phone number! You should at least give her one call (to check it wasn't fake ) to ask to go have a drink or tag along with her friends or something (is there something wrong with the latter ).
P.S. the way your head works, it's the stuff what soap-opera's are made of :')

She probably doesn't have a panel of geeks backing her, so that's at least one advantage you have

And if she does have a panel of geeks backing her, she's perfect for you!

She has a boyfriend. She gave you her number. What kind of girl is that. And are you honestly interested in a girl that has a boyfriend at the moment? How far would you go with her while she still has a boyfriend? Will you be enjoying the time when she is figuring out whether to dump the old boyfriend or to just stick with both him and you? My advice is to move on to the next one that doesn't have a boyfriend.

You were faster than me, I was going to quote CGamesPlay:

And one more that came to my mind:

That said, you're thinking too much, but if you insist stop going for sandwiches, stay inside your cave, let your meal driven to home. Pay under your door in order to stay out of contact and so on

Allright, so I got that almost right. I thought it's sandwich from Subway. But anyway without a context and with a bit of sick humour, one could think something else

Maybe her boyfriend beats her up worse than bambam would. Why shouldn't she upgrade? There's no long term commitment at that stage.

Or maybe she is getting tired of bambam stalking her, so she is giving him her number in the hopes he calls her so that her boyfriend will find out and subsequently seek out and destroy bambam.

Are you sure you didn't mean to say disadvantage?

I think she's just a very nice person. That's certainly the impression I've gotten chatting with her while she made sandwiches. She's very friendly with everybody that comes in. That is, instead of just outright saying no, she offered to be friends instead.

It more or less comes down to accepting friendship and just being friends or else refusing that. I don't even know her at this point so it really doesn't matter to me either way. Maybe she's the contradiction to my generalizations that I've been looking for. Or maybe not.

First apologize for not giving her your name. Second, give her your phone number and email address. Third, ask her what she likes to do, sports, books, games whatever. Fourth, tell her some of the things you like to do. Fifth, do some of those things together. Sixth, stop analyzing.

I thought people just stalked each other on Facebook these days.

FTFY

Quick, kill her while you still have a chance and before she can exploit and take advantage of your friendliness. You hate people.

TWIS. Or did you mean the bold for emphasis?

I meant the emphasis to be very selective about what he said he liked to do.

Thing is, you want love, she wants friendship. You'll pain every time you go out. Then her boyfriend will get jealous and beat you up with a baseball bat.

I don't even know her. I just wanted to maybe get to know her. That's all. I'm not invested in her at all.

The fact that you took the time to ask people on the internet for advice about her and what to do says otherwise.

I think we need a photo of the lovely lady, taken by stealth naturally, so we can offer more accurate advice.

Then what the heck are you still doing in here? Go, get it right and stop thinking too much.

I'm waiting for the day when both sides are a.cc members but they don't realize that. And both people create threads that describe the same situation. However, both sides have such a different view that it isn't obvious until 100 posts later when they are both giving each other terrible advice.

That would be a lot easier if I met women regularly. I never meet women. That's why I had to ask this one at work... I was asking more for ideas of what to do with her (i.e., go bowling, see a movie, ...). Nothing I can think of seems like a non-date. Of course, there was a pretty unanimous NOTHING, so that settles that.

You mean when they start complaining about the other person doing the things they told them to do?

I don't see this happening because women are very rare here and women that would value our opinions on relationships are even moreso. As for giving each other terrible advice, I expect that would be one-sided. That is, the woman would be giving stupid encoded messages, whereas the man would likely just outright say exactly what to do (sadly, she would probably not take this advice).

Hint: The term "date" refers to the calendar date you're supposed to go do something. So if you have an appointment to get audited by that ugly old woman at the IRS, you have a date with her.

If you arrange a time and place to meet a woman, you can be sure she thinks it is a date. Of course, in this case it would be since you are clearly interested in her.

Or a rendez vous as the french say

--bamccaig.reading_comprehension;

This is all silliness! Just proceed as normal, as if nothing happened. When she asks you why you never called, pretend you don't understand. She will think she is making it all up. Then she will want you very badly.

We don't have museums or art galleries in town (and if we do, I won't enjoy them [and neither would anybody with me]).

But she'll see his parachute is still open...

Ok, first of all.
Whether you meet women regularly or not will be less important than doing the right thing when you do meet them. So now that you've managed to get her name and phone number, try to be friendly with her so you're more comfortable. Being "just" friends is not a bad thing in that sense. Don't expect it to necessarily go anywhere and don't be disappointed if it doesn't. Your goal is not to end up with the love of your life (although it's ok if that happens anyway), your goal is to actually learn how to talk to a girl.
I know I said "first of all", but that's about it, really.

At this stage, I don't think there's anything you can suggest that doesn't seem like a date. Personally, I'd just go for coffee or something like that (after work or during a break?): it's informal, you can both easily get out if/when you want to, you can talk and get to know eachother (not so easy at the cinema) and you can figure out what you'd both like to do for a followup, if anything. If there's a coffee place you've been meaning to try, say that that's where you'd like to go.

I'll pipe in and say hang with her in a group setting, but you seem to have discounted that already. Capitalize on common interests. And if you don't know of any, either find some or don't be friends. Chat her up more before calling her; if something doesn't volunteer itself after a few chats, maybe you should raise your standards beyond "cute".

Anyway, women can smell the neediness on men so now that you know she's spoken for, literally treat her as a friend. Otherwise you'll weird her out if she's not into you, and bore her if she is.

To hang with her in a group setting there has to be a group. I don't have a group, and I'm the one that has her number. I can't very well call her up to suggest we do something with her friends.

I don't know how to chat somebody up. I have no idea what you're supposed to talk about. I can't do small talk. I have absolutely no idea how people do. My brain just becomes a puddle of goo.

What I need is a socialization coach. I just can't find any in the yellow pages.

You talk about what they are interested in. To find out takes a bit of "small talk" where canned responses from her won't work. Protip: If she starts explaining things you already know, pretend you don't know and you're glad to be informed about it unless it's something you've already told her you're an expert at.

I'm sure there's an FAQ online.

This goes double when talking to a girl.

That film you saw the other day (which they also saw). The weather. A book you read. What you do at work. What you want to do in the future. Something you care about and can talk about animatedly. And obviously not something the other party of the conversation has no interest in what so ever.

That's why you're going to talk to this girl, to learn (although, if you have an opportunity to do some small-talk with colleagues first, do so; the longer you can keep the conversation going, the better).

It's actually ok to be shy and awkward, but you have to be ok with it.

dude is she want to be friends be friends with her. just make sure jump on her girl firends. dont try for her if she said she has a boy friend.

If it wasn't because I extracted from the movie an it has some sounds Fx you could send her this song...

High Hair - The Movie

I use to extract the music from movies when I can't find them on internet.

Are you saying that if a girl has a boyfriend she should refrain from making any other male friends? Jealousy stinks.

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We have both actually (in fact we have a couple museums). The Art Gallery is usually pretty lame. Most of the time the exhibits all feature local talent (which we don't have much of apparently, because the art sucks). The only time I've ever enjoy our Art Gallery is when there is a famous out of town exhibit showing.

I can't really speak for the Museum seeing I haven't been there since I was a kid. It was pretty neat back then though.

You should ask her (and her boyfriend I guess) to accompany my wife and I to the Bushplane Museum. That might give you an in to hang with out in a pseudo crowd.

Funnily enough today on my drive to work I saw a sign that read "Art Gallery -->". Nevertheless, I'm not the kind of person that believes anything can be art. I would be the guy saying "That's not art" really loudly.

Yeah, OK, I might be willing to see a museum. There's one across from the dentist office. I'm not sure what it is though. In any case, I can't very well invite just her to the museum either. That's still too much of a date, even if it's a lame one. Pretty much anything with just her and I would be too date-like.

That would just be a double-date (where I'm tagging along, I guess?)!

If you know what time she finishes, e.g. 4pm, next time you're in getting the sandwich you probably don't need, go about that time, chat about the weather and stuff and tell her you're finished work/school/whatever early and have nothing to do and does she want to go for a quick coffee.

It's not a date (it'll be cheap for you) and it'll only last 30 minutes. I'm sure we'll all club together and write a script for you that'll make you look intelligent, interesting, funny, yet edgy with a hint of mystery.

Yeah. I agree.

I'm sure we could get one of my wife's friends to tag along... Just be careful because they tend to be very desperate...

Edit:
Although the more I think about it, this idea does seem kind of lame. I can forsee lots of awkward silence...

That will be unavoidable regardless.

Awkward silences are the best silences.

Are there any other kind?

Are any of them rich? I second the wait for her quitting time to go for cofee idea. Its a lot less threatening.

She gets off at 7pm. Seems a bit late to meet for coffee (the beverage).

Now you might be on to something.

Unless you're very good at acting, you won't be able to hide you studied it. It's even highly likely you'll forget everything when you stand in front of her... Good luck anyway

Nah. "I've had a hectic day today, no breaks at all and this is my lunch and dinner combined. I could do with a sit down and a coffee....."

Says the stalker.

That's an idea. If there's anyone else at a.cc living close to you get them to stalk her visibly to the point of terror then bamccaig happens to be in the neighbourhood, scares him away and wins the girl. Hurrah.

That... OR he should just forget about her. If it does not feel natural for him and if it feels awkward and uncomfortable for him to approach her in any way at any time at all, he should not pursue this any further.

Besides, she has a boyfriend, so there will only be tears in the end anyway.

That could work bamccaig and I live at opposite ends of the same town...

dude! do it! This could be an epic thread!

If I want to get a girl I show her how I play my piano while working out on the Bow Jet. Gets them every time.

Samuel, really dude, you should give him some pointers (not c pointers)

Ignore her and hit on 5 other girls. It's what she wants you to do and it'll be better for you.

You can't obsess over a single transaction, focus on the macro elements to achieve success.

I corrected Arthur's chart.
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You missed "Be a real French guy", which was working like mad when I met anglo-girls ;-p

Edit: fixed a typo.

I'm afraid to ask, but what does that entail? By the way, says a man who had recently a "game over"

Hmm... Interesting idea.

I vondair eef I could poule deece awf?

You think Gull would ask?

Poule deece awf ochr I veel tell ze poleece you smuck geechr.

It's like wiping your ass with silk ...

"How was the toilet paper?"
"Soft as an angel's fart."

I'd put my penis in a sub, walk in holding it and ask her if she fancies a nibble. Then again I've been single for a few years now.

requesting an update

There is no update. I haven't gone to get a sub since then. Mostly because I'm trying to save some money and buying a sub is more expensive so I only do it occasionally. And for the past two weeks or so I've been going regularly to see a chiropractor so I have less money than normal to spend. In any case, I intend to just keep it business unless she brings it up.

Ironically, that's probably the best way to get the girl.

While playing hard to get can work, in this instance she'd have to hunt down his place of work to interact with him. Unless she was already following him back to work from the sub shop earlier.

You lose her number?

I still have it, but I don't plan to call it. She wouldn't even know who was calling, and after explaining that to her (hoping she hadn't forgotten), I'd still have a hard time figuring out anything to do with her as just friends. Anything with just the two of us would be like a date so she (and her boyfriend) would probably be uncomfortable with that. Besides all that, the friend-zone sucks.

Be aware that there is a limited-time opportunity for you to pick things up again. If you ask for her phone number and then disappear for a month, it's not going to look good.

She hasn't forgotten.
She may have decided that you lost interest, but she hasn't forgotten.

That's why you decide ahead of time what you're going to do, and you just ask her along. If you can't do coffee, then asking her as part of a group is probably the best thing to do that needn't feel completely awkward (depending on how social she is).

Don't try to think for someone else. They're perfectly capable of doing it themselves, you get yourself worked up, and you may get it wrong. If she feels uncomfortable about it, she may just say no. If she doesn't say no and is still uncomfortable, then she probably won't say yes again. Either way, nothing lost by giving it a go.

Are you planning to marry this girl, or planning to talk to her so you get more comfortable talking to people, in particular, women?
If the former, then it's a bad situation. If it's the latter, not so much.

Pussy.

Why isn't there an algorithm for getting women

I'm sure there is, but in my experience it's inversely correlated with how much you want to get women.

It's pretty simple. If you don't have enough money to afford a real girlfriend, then just call your local pimp.

Tell me about it. I have to go out of my way to avoid all the women who want me.

Fo real.

Tell girls you're gay. They'll be all over you.

Seeeee!? Case and point!

Yes there is, this: http://www.allegro.cc/forums/thread/607431/918886#target

They've been throwing themselves at me ever since.

You mean trying to dodge you as you mow them down.

It's simply the fact that you have no blood left in your brain due to the gallant reflex.

I guess it was another "reflex" that made the blood escape the brain.

<edit />

Oh, the other reflex is called gallant.

Speak for yourself

UPDATE

I lied. This is unrelated, but on-topic. So I'm sitting at home tonight, minding my own business, drinking beer and watch the season finale of House. I hear a knock on my apartment door, and since nobody buzzed, it has to be somebody either living in the building or already buzzed in. I'm assuming it's my brother because it always is. I peek briefly through the peep hole and think I see a blonde girl. Strange, but I assume somebody going door-to-door to sell stuff. Instead, it's a young woman asking something about "smokes". I assume she's high or something and asking for one so I politely say that I don't have any (it was either that or she asked me if I do smoke and I politely said no, but it's really all the same). Blah blah, I was too drunk to recall the specifics, but she invites me to have a beer with her in her apartment. In her next breath she shows me her hand and says she's married, but that she's separated. I'm a little uneasy, but both don't want to be rude (she seemed genuinely going out on a limb; albeit, I'm drunk) and I'm thinking it would be a good opportunity to step out of my comfort zone and meet somebody new. I expressed hesitation before saying, "Errm, OK, fine, I'll come get to know you". She puts out her hand to shake hands and I do (though I'm not very good at shaking hands so it comes across somewhat awkward). She begins to walk away, but I stop her with, "let me grab my keys."

She said she lives on the first floor, but as we get to the elevator she presses "up" (and I don't live below the first floor). Immediately alarm bells are ringing and I'm mentally trying to prepare for the possibility of a blitz attack. When we enter the elevator she presses 1 though (honestly, I was too drunk and/or too focused to notice until we were moving anyway). We arrive on the ground floor, she exits the elevator and instructs me to follow her right out of the elevator. I do. Mid-way she says this is my [mother]^[1], referring to an older woman walking the opposite way. I nervously say hi a good 15 or 20 feet away, wary of how loud it might sound to the neighbors since the doors don't really keep the hallway noise out. As we pass she puts out her hand to shake hands. Again, with the awkward hand shake. We arrive at the last apartment on the right (I think; it might have been second last ish).

I follow her in and immediately she goes to the fridge and asks me what I'd like. "Beer, if you got it," I rhetorically say, since she already offered to give me beer. She says her mother must have already drank it all and offers me a few alternatives; vodka,....they all seemed vodka-based. Maybe Smirnoff-ice or something; I don't recall anymore. I decline, since I have no intentions of getting too drunk to think with her, let alone puking due to mixing drinks since I've already had a good 4 or 5 beer (in about 4 hours). She says "Funniest Home Videos" is on and I nervously affirm and follow her to the couch, noticing children's toys scattered around the walls of the apartment (the alarm bells were wheezing at his point). I think the first thing she said to me after that was, "I'm bipolar." I'm sure there was some filler around it, but that's all I can remember. Which was somewhat shocking, but didn't really bother me overly. Nor did it surprise me; she was acting strangely for a female; introducing herself so boldly, etc. Probably the next thing she asks me is for a phone number. I literally just met this girl about 10 minutes before and she is acting kind of strange (and she already knows I live in the same building as her) so I'm hesitant to give her my phone number. I ask her why she wants my number (again because we live in the same building and if she wanted to talk she could just come knock on my door). She says in case she needs support, so I ask her what she would need support for (again, I just met her; I'm thinking in this approximate order: mental disorder, drugs, alcohol, ...). She says asthma, which makes no sense because the last time I checked asthma sufferers don't need "support". She said something else, which I don't honestly recall, but I try to politely explain to her that it's a little bit too fast (AKA soon) for that.

Some time passes and we make awkward conversation. She asked me something about whether or not I'm Catholic, to which I honestly reply, "No, I'm an atheist." She asks me what that means and I tell her that I don't believe in any God. She seems to take that as a bit of a surprise, but it doesn't seem to bother her any. I ask her what she is and she says Catholic. I let out an obvious laugh at the irony awkwardness. Out of nowhere she says something about going to see a psychic so my natural reaction is to express how much of a scam they are. She reacts like, "Oh really?" like a completely mindless sheep waiting for me to explain it to her. So I express my opinion. I say they're just scam artists that know how to say the things that we can all relate to in a vague enough way to seem genuine, but without being too specific. She seems completely awestruck. Either she was playing dumb or she really thought I was some kind of genius (I'm sure she'll keep going, mind you; assuming the story is real). She soon asks me what do I believe in, and I say that in a religious sense, "nothing." I explain that it's all superstition; at least, in my opinion (trying to respect her beliefs).

Some more time passes and some more awkward conversation ensues. She asks if I like the casino, so I explain my view on that: it's basically the same as other superstitions; gamblers always believe the next round is a winner, but mathematically they're almost certainly guaranteed to lose^[2]. She goes to get me a picture of her two year old daughter, to which I awkwardly nod along to. As I pass her back the photograph she asks me if it looks like her, which raises some alarms because I can't imagine a mother asking a strange man if her own daughter looks like her. I take a second look at the child just in case on the off chance I happen to recognize her from some kind of amber alert or something (since I can't remember any amber alerts I wasn't very hopeful anyway). I don't so I just pass the picture back rather uneasy... She then goes to get me a picture of her "brother" who "served in Afghanistan." At this point I'm questioning and analyzing everything she says by nature. I ask her where he is now, more so to test her response than out of actual curiosity or conversation making. Her response seems genuine, but it's not like I would really know anyway. I'm wondering where her daughter is if not here^[3]. She gets back up to put the picture of her "brother" back in the kitchen, opens the fridge^[4] and comes back with a bottle of beer, explaining that she hadn't noticed it before. I'm wary, but she opens it in front of me so I shrug it off and accept it.

She lights up a cigarette to ease her own nerves and after it's lit asks if it bothers me. I grew up around smokers so a few minutes won't bother me any so I reassure her that I'm fine. She opens the patio door to help the smoke dissipate. I give her a friendly lecture on how smoking is bad for her and she should quit. She asks me if I do drugs and I reply no. She expresses shock, saying that I look like somebody that does (in a way that implies a serious drug user). I've never even witnessed somebody smoking a joint so I find this rather amusing and question her observation. She can't explain why and just reasserts that I look like somebody that would. I attribute it either to my baggy clothes or her state of mind. Out of curiosity and caution I question if she does drugs. She insists not, which just evaluates to another questionable response since she is acting rather "out of it", though she had already admitted to drinking ~6 vodka+orange juice glasses at this point so it's fair to assume that she is at least as intoxicated as me (and perhaps more so). She asks me if I work and if so what do I do. I tell her where I work (not really much a concern because nobody recognizes where I work) and explain that I'm a software developer, to which she replies that I must make a lot of money. This rings the gold digger alarm, and I honestly explain that I probably don't make as much as I could (in a naive attempt to make her lose interest in my money).

Sometime during this awkward meet the phone rings. She checks the caller id and requests that I be quiet. I know she's married, but allegedly separated, so naturally I assume this is her husband. I sit there awkwardly while she chats him up friendly like, which raises further alarms, considering they're supposed to be getting separated and most separations are ugly. After she gets off the phone she tells me it's him (confirming my suspicions), but reassures me that she has his truck so he won't stop by and so I shouldn't worry. Since she opened the patio for the smoke already and we're on the first floor I was already prepared for somebody to jump through the patio just in case (i.e., the whole thing seemed fishy so I considered the possibility of a setup from the moment I stepped out my door) so I wasn't really concerned anyway. If anything I was imagining my bottle of beer as a makeshift mallet and then shiv. :P Shortly after that she says that she was just with him for his money (not selling herself to me very effectively...).

Queue more awkward conversation and a small amount of "Funniest Home Videos" (I barely watched at all). Some time during the conversation I asked where her mother was, more so to gauge whether or not she was coming back (hoping in part that her mother was completely sane/normal and could explain away her daughter's behavior to ease my wariness). She said doing laundry, which is just down the hall. I begin to get the sense that the mother takes care of the daughter (23 years old, according to an earlier statement), yet the apartment might be solely the daughter's. When she gave me a tour she said bedroom #1 was "her room" and bedroom #2 was the "spare" (i.e., not "my mother's bedroom"). Shortly afterward her mother returns. As we sit there awkwardly with the mother she offers to "walk me out" any time I want. I didn't really catch her name (no clue if she even told me her name; I don't recall ever telling her my name). Her mother is calling her Michelle though, if I heard her correctly. The whole time I've been kind of thinking this chick is totally gonna fuck me. Some more time passes, with very little conversation now that her mother has joined us. I finish my beer and she asks if she'd like me to have her walk me out. I take my time responding trying to be polite, but ultimately accept her offer since I'm more than a little off-put at this point. Unsurprisingly, she doesn't leave me at the door, but follows me down the hallway. I had been somewhat expecting this so I was considering the possibility of giving her another chance in my own apartment where we would actually be alone and could talk. Maybe I was jumping to conclusions too quickly and should give her another chance, you know? I was hoping all the scary would disappear with time. She didn't really give me a chance. Not half way to the elevator she tells me, "you know you're getting laid, right?"

On the one hand, whoohoo! She wasn't bad looking at all. Pretty cute, really. On the other hand, she's married[, allegedly separated], has at least one child, admitted to using her husband just for his money, is apparently bipolar (mentally unstable), probably uses drugs, probably has a gambling problem^[5], and we met under very strange circumstances. On top of that, we live in the same building and she knows where I live^[6]. It isn't like I'd easily get away with a one night stand. She seems far too desperate for that. In any case, I tell her, "Sorry, but no." She turns to me as if to put a move on, but at this point I'm in defense mode and put my arms out to stop her. I don't really feel comfortable putting my hands on a woman to "restrain" her (read: hold her back), but I digress. She gets the message that it isn't going to happen, though it isn't clear if her intentions were pure or malicious, asserts that "you suck", and begins to walk back to her (and her mother's?) apartment. As I step into the elevator, I lean back out to again say "sorry".

I'm not really sure how to evaluate how I handled it. Nor am I sure that I gave it justice attempting to write about it over the past hour. All I know is that it didn't feel right to me and the potential risks just didn't seem worth sex to me. :-/ In any case, this was a rather odd night...

(Keep in mind that I'm drunk so the exact order of things might differ from my retelling and I may have forgotten about some details in the time it took me to reflect and write about it...)

Yay! bambam's not an adulterer!

Sorry she wasn't single though.

Jesus-balls-Christ. If anyone actually reads that post in its entirety, I salute you.

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Sounds like you had a run-in with a horny chick, where the risks could have potentially outweighed the benefits (or not, but not worth the risk). You played it right, dawg.

I bet though she may be "separated", she still bangs her ex cause she's a freak.

I didn't read that holy wall of text he wrote, but I did send it through my secret paraphrasing program I wrote a while ago, and it goes like this:

In a stupor caused by a lonely evening filled with far too many drinks, bambam dreams that a married woman offered herself freely to him but he did the honorable thing and refused.

I'm pretty sure you made the right choice. A woman that throws herself at strangers like that is a high risk for diseases.

How exactly did she throw herself at him?

If that's not throwing yourself at someone, I don't know what is.

So there is one thing that is still left unclear. Which one is the girl at the sub shop: the daughter or the mother?

I like that bambam didn't even bother to ask her name. A couple rules that are applicable:

1. Ask for the girl's name.

2. Remember it.

Oops, I forgot about that part of the thread. I was thinking of the girl in the first post.

Bams post is filled with unfounded fear ("blitz attack") and really stupid decision making.

Remember: "Every hole is a goal, if there is grass, play ball".

Awe! But those are the most exciting kind. Shortly after you blow your wad, you think "Oh shit, we never told each other our names! " And the girl's like "thx hawt guy ." You put your clothes on and head back down to the party.

this.thread=epic

You forget that bambam is looking for somebody he will marry after a couple of dates.

Well, if she's bipolar good job you didn't do much else as when she got back to normal she'd probably have you for rape and/or her ex would probably still be quite jealous and be round with a baseball bat.

Eh, that sounds very unlikely in this circumstance. I'd put that thought in the "paranoid" category.

That I would put under "funny".

It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you.

My 2 cence.

I can tell she is young late teens early 20s.
The husband is an older man.
Her and the husband have seen you before and have talked about you.

She just had a argument about the husband cheating.
or had an argument about a week ago spit-up and the husband hagging with the one he cheated on her with and she see them.

My thoughts is you are a fool you just doomed her too something like suicide or maybe suicide murder she dose have a little girl that is hopfuly in the fathers custody do to her Bi Polar.

She might even be 23.

Tipicle atheist if self-centered non caring. You was only thing about how the situation will affect yourself. She ask if you was a Catholic because you was making it so hard for by not making any moves. i don't think she was using her Man for the money, i feel she was the one that was being used and she want to be like "ha ha i got money out of him" too feel like she go away with something. when she really did not get anything except a child. The right thing would have been to talk with her and be her Friend. she would pay you back 100 fold in the future.

piccolo, I never would have guessed you to have such a keen insight into horny divorcees!

bamccaig hes right you got it all wrong you gotta loooooove them girls and envite them into yore hart.

So you do the right thing to avoid being cast into Hell? That sounds kind of self centered to me.

piccolo is right. I should have fucked that drunk, bi-polar, married, young Catholic mother silly.

Please forgive me, Lord.

!

I hope not.

That's right. We don't care about anyone. I'm only pretending I like, let alone love, my girlfriend. And our baby, what a git. I keep trying to get him to jump from the balcony, but the little bugger keeps holding on to something. I tried to have the cat murdered by subjecting him to radioactivity, but it only seems to have cured his overactive thyroid.

In other words, you're an arrogant ignorant twat.

And you know all this... how?
You're not her husband, are you?

I'm sure she could really do with a friend. Then again, if she wanted to be friends, she wouldn't have tried to get it on with him.
The thing is, it's not very easy to make friends with someone who is so messed up. Yes, it can be worthwhile in the end, if and when they recover. But you have to go through a LOT of shit before you get there, and you need to be willing to put up with that. If you're already friends, then that may be reasonable. If it's a complete stranger that's less obvious. Besides, before taking on someone else's problems, I think Bammy should get himself sorted out...

That sounds like prostitution.

He was so worry with how the situation was going to affect him. he did not think o-man how could I help this girl. When a girl comes on too you like that it means she feel KOOL("safe") around you. How can you tell a girl in that situation out right, no its not going to happen?

edit:

girls can do more then just have sex with you know.

They can get other girls for you example That same sandwich girl he liked.

you said your ace in to feel her out. then you would know how to approach her. or you can even find out if she is down.

If your a guy like me that dose not fight girls. having a girl that Handel your light work is very useful

Easy... "No, it's not going to happen."

Even if that's true, having sex with her hardly qualifies as "helping".
And again, having stuff to sort out for yourself makes you ill-equipped to dealing with someone else's problems. That's before we get to "he was drunk at the time."

A complete stranger. Yeah, she obviously felt very safe.
No, when a girl (or, frankly, a guy) does that, in that situation, it means they're so desperate for attention that they're probably not thinking straight. Which, yes, does mean that they need help and a friend.

Self respect?
Knowing what's best for yourself? Best for her?

Me and most of my family are atheists. Most of my friends are atheists. Most of the people I know are atheists. None of them are self-centered and non-caring.

But then again, why am I telling this to a lunatic from Sierra Leone who thinks he's building a spaceship?

Nice, bambam.

I had a similar run in a couple weeks ago and dodged the bullet. I'd go into details, but lets just say I was non-reactive and later learned she was a recovering crack whore.

I laughed.
Out loud.

Light work or lightwork?

<quote>Even if that's true, having sex with her hardly qualifies as "helping".<quote> If you get your head out of the gutter you would see that no wear in my post did I say or imply that having sex with her was the recomaned coruse of action.

you should be old enough to rember that before ?? and the trash box you all call a TV dumbed every one down. humans could tell the charitor of a person. beleave it or not humans still do have instinks.

but guess atheists dont beleave in that because they cant see it.

@Vanneto You will address me as King Piccolo. A troll has no right to call me by my given Name

Actually, TVs were invented before I was born. Haven't had one for years though.

Guess you mean "character". And yes, people can.

Isn't it theist fundies who would be more likely to have a problem with humans having instincts? The fast majority of human behaviour can be explained as instinctive.

I did not call you by any name. But I guess not being able to spell also means you can't read so good either. Pity.

But seriously, this level of stupidity must be intentional. Nobody, not even the stupidest people I know aren't this daft. Or maybe you are just a persistent troll. We'll never know I guess.

Vanneto: You'd be surprised. Stupidity is amplified when it comes across in a text based medium. I know some people that are not so bright and talking to them online just makes it so much worse.

@Bamccaig: if you like the girl, ask her out. Dancing around the main issue won't solve the problem, and don't think even for a minute that she has not decided yet if she likes you or not.

You made the right decision bamccaig. If I were in your shoes, I would have ditched when I found out she was married and separated. I don't even know if I would have went to her appartment.

Remember friend: "When it comes to the Sault, most attractive women are either already taken or completely batshit crazy."

I did ask the OP girl out... That was the whole fucking point of the OP.

Technically she told me she was married (but separated!) about 30 seconds after I opened my door. So I knew long before I went to her apartment (relatively speaking).

• 

• Since you quoted that I wonder who you're quoting (though acknowledge that it's probably just a city slogan that unfortunately doesn't fit on a license plate).

A mutual friend of ours once told that to me back in college (or maybe just after college)...

I think I remember that now.

He seems relatively normal here:

I guess I should have posted the channel so you could see the comment he wrote about this video:

http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffnicq

He has so much trouble with one keyboard but not the other...

I don't think I mentioned this the other night: when "Michelle" introduced herself to me at my door she said that she heard my music earlier and liked it and that's why she wanted to meet me. Something that I more or less would fantasize about nearly every time that I cranked my music up either in my car or apartment (pretty regularly). So she played that part right. She claimed to have knocked on my door earlier, but nobody answered. While I was out earlier that day, I had turned my music off before I left, so it raises some doubt about her story...

Later on in her apartment I asked her what was playing that she liked, basically just trying to figure out what (if any) musical tastes we had in common, but she said she couldn't remember. It seemed somewhat odd that she couldn't remember what allegedly lead her to me in the first place. In any case, it's certainly possible that I was too critical of her. And that was drunk. I guess that means that you don't want to see me sober. It's certainly unfortunate if she legitimately couldn't remember or didn't know (i.e., was too drunk or didn't know what was playing, but liked the style).

Somebody reassure me that I made the right decisions.

Pull your baggy pants up and take command of yourself!

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You didn't get laid. That's enough to make anybody reevaluate their actions. Like I said earlier, you made the right choice as you can only really gauge what you should do while you're in the situation. Afterthought is tainted.

For what it's worth, I would have made the same decision you did.

It's just pathetic when a guy thinks to start a friendship with a girl he is sexually attracted to. She has a boyfriend, dump her, find another one. It's that easy.

A former housemate of mine was in a similar situation. He dated a girl in high school, broke up with her, she got married and had a son, contacted him some years later, they got together possibly as friends and had a son, she and her husband got divorced but still live together and I think they had another child, but the former housemate is paying almost half his paycheck to her in support. She is always pulling the former housemate into court to increase the payments or cut his visitation rights. I grew up in the same neighborhood as them and knew her before he did. I remember telling him I thought she was a bitch, but looking back I think that term was too strong. I think you dodged a bullet, Bambam, but maybe you should have told her you were too drunk to have sex.

I think today might be the day for me to get a sub. I'm not feeling very well and next week I'm going on holidays so I'd rather be feeling better by then. I think a big sub with plenty of vegetables and/or "fruit" (e.g., tomato) would be a more healthy lunch (compared to a couple of chicken wraps from Tim Horton's) and hope it will help.

Is piccolo a real person or just Yves on LSD?

None of us are real. Kuhl, upgrading to Opera 11.11 brought back my attachments button!

OMG it's the big day!

Alright, bets are on! Everybody pick one:

1. Conversation is short and inconsequential.

2. She's (having trouble/broke up with) her boyfriend.

3. She says something like "You never called! "

4. She isn't working today.

I bet on 4.

5. She has a new boyfriend.
6. She's quit her job and is working somewhere else now (variation of 4).

I'd go with 1 or 4.

Oh,

Your immune system doesn't work that way.

HAHAHA

And the winner is... 1 (and maybe 5, but it didn't come up ). We didn't really talk at all. I'm not going to bother listing the possible reasons why.

I'm getting mixed up already, I was thinking this is the thread about a random bipolar girl knocking on somebody's apartment door...

It is. And it isn't. I temporarily hijacked it rather than creating a whole new thread for that chick. Then I went back on topic briefly. Now I'm not sure where it's going to go (depends if anybody has anything more to add about either or whether or not I run into one of these two girls, or Hell a third, sometime soon).

Did she give any indication that she remembered you? Like "Oh hi! Haven't seen you around lately" or something to that effect?

She did call the police, but other than that... no.

Nothing so obvious. The place was relatively busy. When I asked her out I actually waited until the only other person went into the back (is that good, bad, or neutral?). Anyway, today there were 2 or 3 other customers and a colleague so about 4 extra people in a tiny little sub shop. Nichole didn't take my order either; the other woman did.

I asked what was in the "veggie" sub trying to figure out if I wanted to try something new (and potentially more healthy). The woman said whatever I want. Inside I was wondering why they don't call it the "whatever you want" sub then. At this point, I think Nichole had moved over from the counter space where they make the subs (on the side) to the front counter where I was ordering, standing next to the woman actually taking my order. Doubtful, I naturally asked if "whatever I want" included meat. Of course, the answer to that was no. When I asked about the meat I think Nichole kind of laughed a bit, but it was too subtle to be sure. I'm probably inferring too much from it, but I digress. It was beginning to feel a little awkward with them both waiting on me (instead of going on with their business or stepping away from the counter until I had decided) so to speed it along I just ordered my usual. That same woman was working when I asked Nichole out (and in fact she's the one that took the order that time too) and they've both seen me in there a few times so I wouldn't be surprised if Nichole told her I asked her out. For all I know she asked her to stick around this time so we wouldn't be alone.

Nichole made my sub. I'm pretty sure she recognized me and "knew who I am", but I think she probably felt a little weird about it and maybe the opportunity for an ice breaker never came up (or maybe she was waiting for me to break the ice). Maybe the fact that she was perhaps shy is a good sign since until now she's always been very outgoing with me and everybody else in the "restaurant". Then again, it could be a bad sign too. Who knows. I don't think it's worth hoping for, but I guess there's always the possibility that she does split up with her boyfriend and brings it up when she sees me next. We'll see (or we won't); whatever.

I'd had hit her. You never know when such an occasion will arise a new time. Maybe .... Never !!

Edit: "She has a new boyfriend", Oh boy, that one is soooooo good ^^

Edit 2: Your topic and talks made me remember a sentence by Pierre Desproges, a famous French comic: "L'intelligence c'est comme le parachute, quand on en a pas on s'ecrase."

My advice. Is to leave that girl alone dont even think about her like that any more. you did your part if she wants to be down with you she will do her part. Words from the wise King Piccolo

I've suffered from "wax in the ears" because I was afraid, it takes judgement and experience to know for fairly certain.

This thread should have died a while ago... I think you've already wasted your window of opportunity with Nichole. Now you can reascertain that fact by trying to get a date as best as you can; or back off while making excuses to yourself and delude yourself into thinking there never was a chance; or you can admit what a dweeb you've been and laugh it off with some friends/strangers(?)(no drinkies for you ).

Come on, she walked over, took over on making your sub, and laughed at something not-so-funny that you said. You need to man up, break the ice, and strike up conversation with her.

Hmm... I agree with this point, generally. You need to be sure to...

wait...

I just realized something...

she gave her number out to a guy but she has a boyfriend.

Eh, I guess that's not such a big deal.

She didn't "take over". I think when conditions allow they usually have one person making the sandwiches while the other works the register and deals with the people. When it's those two that are working Nichole usually (always?) does make the sandwich.

For whatever reason, I was rather more uncomfortable than usual. My neck felt really stiff and I just couldn't relax. I hope she didn't feel a similar discomfort, but I suspect that she did. The weird thing was that it stuck with me all day long. I noticed it at work sitting at my desk all alone. Something about it really shook me up, I guess. I don't know.

What I do know is that I suck at making conversation. I can't even make conversation with family (e.g., aunts/uncles, parents, brother, etc.). I can talk about something specific, but I usually either have more to say then they care to listen to or I have nothing to say at all. I haven't figured out small talk yet. When I interact with people I always let them lead the conversation.

Sounds like you made a mistake with crazy married girl then.

That was probably your last chance at love. Analyze that for a bit.

s/Nichole/Nicole/g

You think too much about things.

Unless she's a complete minger, she probably gets asked out a dozen times a day.

Bamccaig, I think you made the right choice with that drunk chick who knocked on your door. If you feel danger, I say go with your gut feeling. Logistically, tho, it would have been safer if you got her to go back to your apartment and messed around rather than at her place.

You seem to get stressed and awkward. The best way to avoid these negative feelings is to get more experience, and there's no better way to get experience than to go and put yourself out there and eventually you will see success. Keep doing what you're doing, and put yourself in situations where you can interact with people. It's just like programming, you'll know which buttons to press and how to gauge reactions and how to get the reaction that you are seeking.

+1.

I'm like this as well. I usually can't think of anything to say at all until something happens that catches my interest or someone says something that gets a train of thought rolling...

You will not master smalltalk until you forget about it.

Do you think people that can easily smalltalk are thinking "gee, now I am about to smalltalk"? they don't. They just relax and say the first thing they come out of their mouth.

When you say it like that, it sounds like a very bad thing indeed.

Again, I'm sure there's FAQs for learning to socialize online if you really want some help. Or check your spam folder for something that says "Seduce any woman in 5 minutes!" or anything along those lines.

Here we go.

Are we talking about Smalltalk or small talk?

Small talk is a waste of time, so I avoid it. All silence is golden. But really, if you must, it's simple.

Just ask the person a stupid question (about her) and then ignore her for the duration of her response. The key is to ask something that cannot be answered with a short response. When she has finished just ask, "So how does that make you feel?"

It can go on for hours.

Why does that strike me as so familiar... Was it a running gag here? In a movie? Series? I can't get rid of the feeling I've heard it before...

If you get really good at it, you can charge 200 an hour to ask that question over and over ...

.

You can switch that up with "I understand" as well.

The goal is to keep them speaking though. The nods and "I understand" comments should be used while they are speaking in an effort to prevent a pause.

Yes, I understand Matthew. And how does that make you feel?

since bamccaig likes rap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V1kt803W5w

There is no word for 'small talk' in German. According to an article (I think BBC) German's don't do small talk and think us British are telling lies when we do small talk when in fact it's just part of the way you do small talk (like, "I'll ring you next week"), etc.

On the contrary, I can tell from my own observation, Germans DO smalltalk (they call it that as well) and way too much of it for my taste and I rarely participate because I don't give a fuck about most things.

It's usually not a problem until people start feeling you don't like them just because you don't talk to them which is an assumption just as stupid as all the constant jibber jabber itself.

Which is why you need to make smalltalk with them. I've been trying (and failing) to do so myself with a girl I met recently.

Small talk isn't easy. The reason being that all girls are different, and you need to find the small talk which that girl is into if you want to make any headway.

Usually, though, it involves fun. "Girls just wanna have fun" is some pretty solid advice.

Not true and I really take issue with statements like that. Girls decide who they're interested in from across the room before the guys even notice them or do anything. (Guys do it too but perhaps with a greater acceptance ratio?) No amount of knowing how to treat the girl will help. You will still fail, and when you do, all the effort will have been for nothing and you will feel like this:

By contrast, if she is interested, then you won't mess it up. Most of the stuff you're worried about will actually be attractive, and if you do make some mistakes then they'll be instantly forgiven.

The only thing you need to do is look after your appearance and mood, and put yourself in places where a good number of girls get a chance to see you and decide if they're interested. Most of them won't be, but that doesn't matter. It mustn't matter.

More thood for fought:

• You seem to feel more comfortable asking her out when no one is watching. More generally, you feel certain discussions are best kept private. Let's suppose she thinks differently and enjoys flaunting all her private stuff in public. How would you feel in that relationship?

• Let's suppose she has a boyfriend but is considering you. Try to imagine that you have a girlfriend but are considering another girl. How serious would you be? Ultimately you would have to choose between the two. How would the new girl feel? For that matter, how would the old girl feel? Returning to the present situation, if she left him for you, could you live with having upset another guy so badly?

• Forget she has a boyfriend for a moment. Let's pretend she's single. Now let's suppose you try hard to be what you think she wants you to be. For example, she likes Screamcore or something, and you don't, but you say you do because you think it gives you a chance. Or she wants to spend all her time shopping for jewellery, but you find this boring, but you say you like it because you think it gives you a chance. Let's suppose this works and you end up in a relationship. Now imagine you have to accompany her on these shopping trips for all eternity, then you get home to Screamcore every night. It's going to spoil the bedroom experience, I can assure you. Wouldn't you be happier single at this point?

[EDIT]

You might be thinking of ELIZA

And most importantly, if she's like considering another guy while still in relationship, how high is your chance that she won't do it to you as well?

Yes and no. There's also the undecided zone, where she decides you are interesting enough to give you a chance and evaluates your behaviour. That said, girls don't behave that simple.

True - but my model (with your refinements if you like) is a lot more healthy than the one I'm challenging

So if she wants to evaluate your behaviour, then there's no point in being fake, is there? You won't be happy, because you'll have to continue being fake.

No doubts about that. Being all by yourself is the key. Any pretending is a road to perdition.

Indeed.
Learn to react spontaneously. If you need to think about what you want to say in conversation before opening your mouth to say it, then you're not only going to worry too much about things you shouldn't be worrying about. You're also going to miss the moment where you can respond to something by worrying about it too long. And no, it's not easy to change that, although it is quite literally "stop overanalysing and worrying and start talking".

Almost true. Certainly thing normally progress very naturally and "on their own" if both parties are interested (and you'll know it when that happens, you don't need to wonder "am I doing ok?", you'll know). However, it's still possible for two people to mess things up because they're both shy or afraid to initiate the next step.

While that's a natural consideration, it's not entirely obvious that this is actually a concern. Perhaps the relationship is already sour but she hasn't worked up the courage or motivation to end it. You're better off single than in a bad relationship, but sometimes people will stay in a bad relationship because they're more afraid of being single ("will anyone ever love me after this?") - especially if they're a little shy or insecure.
It's worse if someone actually cheats while in a relationship.

Well, yes. There's this border case. I know it from my own experience and from my friends' experience. It's hard to judge, but if I were in a position of the "other" guy who is being considered as a "replacement", first of all I would let the girl sort her things out.

But when I don't think things through before I say them, I sound like a total idiot!

Oh, for sure!
You want the other person to have their issues resolved, and that's also why you have to resolve your own before you try to get into a relationship. Think of it as avoiding damaged goods, as harsh as that sounds.

Bambams has already been avoiding damaged goods

Bambam of course is not damaged himself.

bambam is one cool cat

I don't think it's wrong, or bad in any way, for someone to consider other relationship options while they are currently in a relationship. In my view, a good relationship should hold together by its own merits. If you rely on relationship lock-in, then you run a much higher risk of getting stuck in an unhappy relationship.

If my girlfriend decides that she's rather be with someone else than with me, then I'd heartily encourage her to do so. It's not good for either of us if she feels trapped. I'd much rather allow her to openly discuss other potential relationship with me, rather than feel like she must keep her feelings secret for fear that I'll feel betrayed in some way. I would not feel betrayed if my girlfriend told me she liked someone else; I would feel trusted, because it would indicate that she trusts our relationship enough to tell me.

Every couple is bound to be weary of each other time to time, the time to split is if it goes on for several months or more. OICW was talking more about the opportunistic bottom-feeders (top-feeders?).

[EDIT]

A couple who are weary of each other should take a look at what's getting them in a rut, a relationship takes work to maintain. Those who are too lazy/stupid to do it on their own have to pay marriage counselors.

More specifically I was talking about the situation where I'd be in a position of the "guy that would probably be a better choice". In that case, she should probably talk it out with her boyfriend first as Karadoc says and then we could see. Sure I'm all for trust and talking things out, but I won't serve as a some guniea pig for her to decide.

Either she would have interest in me and resolve her current relationship, or not. Kind of like Arthur said - this is more opportunistic ones.

So basically it's okay to cheat if:

• You get permission, or

• Your original lover never finds out.

I think the second is the better approach. Every good, long relationship is built on dishonesty and secrets.

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If you have permission, then not only is it ok to be with someone else, it isn't even 'cheating' at all!

It's not cheating, but ... Say you got permission, did your thing, and didn't like it. Your girlfriend trusts you more, but trusts your relationship less.

Now if you did it all behind her back, then there's no harm. Unless she finds out... Then you must explain that she has nothing to be mad about because if she couldn't tell when she didn't know, then obviously it didn't hurt her any.

I agree with that. The only problem is you might not be able to convince her not to be mad. That's probably something worth working out before going ahead.

Also, whether or not she has reason to be mad depends on how she 'found out'. If she found out because you'd been flaking on your commitments to her, and waking her up when you come stumbling into the house drunk in the middle of the night, or something like that, then maybe the no harm, no foul argument won't be appropriate...