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Beware the contributor covenant code of conduct
bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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video

I just stumbled across this video after the routine YouTube hopscotch. I guess this guy has been compared to Eminem for his rhyming. Too early for me to judge, but I didn't have to shut it off so that's a good sign.

Back on topic, I found the plot of the music video interesting.

It appears that we have a young man that commits a felony murder to attain cash to fund his aged mother's cancer treatment. He ends up getting caught, naturally, goes to prison, and gets a death sentence by lethal injection. Meanwhile, the money that he stole was dumped and picked up by an associate and delivered to his mother.

Of course, it's worth asking how that would make the mother feel knowing somebody died for her treatment (albeit, the death looked like a split second reaction more than part of the plan). One could also analyze this on the grounds of social class. How much that money is worth to some and how trivial it is to others.

What I found interesting was a young man throwing his life away for his old mother dying of cancer. An old woman that probably only has 20 or 30 years left even if she's fully cured. And a young man throws his life away to provide her treatment. It doesn't add up.

And yet it's a story that not only was conceived and produced, but that we can relate to. I'm going to go out on a limb and say there aren't any similar stories of young women throwing their lives away in this manner, for a mother let alone a father. The former might be a possibility. I'd say the latter would be a damn rare occurrence, perhaps only conceived to counter the argument I'm making now.

Just food for thought.

Append:

Specter Phoenix, I'm about 83% sure you've already posted that video in this thread... :-/

beoran
Member #12,636
March 2011

Well, I'm more into jRPG's, but personally I like games where one or more of the main characters are female, and preferrably not damsels. It's OK if they get into trouble and need help, or even if they self sacrifice, but really the idea of a woman, or a man for that matter, as a reward is not very interesting for me.

Anyway, jRPG's with a female lead character are really old, starting with Phantasy Star, were we get the wonderful character Alys. And in Phantasy Star 2, the game really pulls a "take that" with Nei... Or in the game I'm currently playing, Legend Of Heroes Trails in the Sky (1 & 2) where Estelle Bright really shines.

In the open source Atari 2600 action/RPG I made, Ature, I also implemented a female lead character, but that game has only been played by a few hundred Atari 2600 fans, so the impact was very limited, I'd say.

Indie games can have a great plot, just look at, say Katawa Shoujo, although that's a visual novel, so there's nothing much else BUT plot there. But I have to admit that personally I think you can find the best plot in many less popular but still non-indie commercial games made in Japan.

I've been working for a long time now on making my own RPG at a glacial pace, and I have a great idea for a better story now. It will be controversial, I'm sure, but also, widely ignored since I estimate less than 1000 people will play it. That's also one reason why the CCoC is not suited for me, it prohibits "sexualized language", which is necessary if you make a plot for a game for adults... 8-)

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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bamccaig said:

Specter Phoenix, I'm about 83% sure you've already posted that video in this thread...

No, but Torhu did post her Norwegian Gender Paradox video earlier in the thread.

beoran, I enjoy RPGs too. I've just recently went back to playing FFXI this year and love the classics like Mother (Earthbound on the SNES), Breath of Fire, Final Fantasy, and a few other RPGs on Steam. I even had an RPG planned as my first game idea when I got into programming. Actually, I think I enjoy all kinds of games equally as I also enjoy hidden object games. My favorite hidden object game actually has a damsel in distress story.

Brink of Consciousness: The Dorian Gray Syndrome, in it you are a reporter who is covering a series of serial killings. Your character writes an article that upsets the killer and he kidnaps your girlfriend. You must go to his house and solve puzzles and try to save her before he kills you both. During the game you encounter glass cylinder tubes with his previous victims displayed like art all over his estate.

I've yet to play Brink of Consciousness 2 yet though.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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No, but Torhu did post her Norwegian Gender Paradox video earlier in the thread.

Sorry. That's my bad. I guess I must have just followed Torhu's video on another hopscotch... ::)

Ben Delacob
Member #6,141
August 2005
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bamccaig said:

You can only really oppose it when your mind is wrapped up in the absurd idea that women are the same as men and just an oppressed class of people by artificial means at the hands of the lord Patriarchy(tm). You need to be completely irrational to not understand why that exists and why it's popular.

The only place you need to be these things is in your mind. As others have stated in this thread, it's trite. You can oppose it for thinking it's un-inventive, boring, storytelling. Also, who says females don't want to play power fantasy games too? Or at least not play dis-empowerment games? To be clear, although it's a mixed bag, I would be surprised if the trope didn't make men generally less sexist in that the goal is basically to wrong injustices against women.

Apparently BLM is getting a GamerGate-esque movement promoting empowerment and just like GG media and writers are labeling them misogynists, et. al. Does that make BLM equivalent to the 3rd wave feminists? :-/

No, it makes them like your part of GG (which is obviously three different groups, the others being sexist and trolls), as you stated. With people focusing on stupid incidents, polluting the name, and ignoring the valid points being made.

[APPEND] Another video of why feminism has such a negative view among so many people:

Scene 1: Sure, gender identity isn't determined by genitals. And? So the fuck what?

Scene 3: Does this mean you're angry all the time.
Hey pot, meet kettle. What his problem? He seems angry and lashes out at people.

Like that fat woman.

"Hey honey, you should smile more." etc. So women are told how they should look and act in a mildly creepy way in a variety of ways and this gives people a bad image of feminists because a bunch of people have writing on their foreheads? This isn't an argument. Fuck using cancer as the punch line.

Bust up militarism is clearly primarily against militarism. Not joining something you're against is reasonable, though I wish that bill had passed to add pressure to reexamining the draft.

Okay, that ugly transgender troll looking person strikes me as probably a troll of the "How dare anyone out there make fun of Britney" variety. If not, this particular cherry was well picked.

"You're a snitch" looks like a feminists. There's no argument here so I'll just assume every crazy bitch is a feminist. Solid reasoning.

Okay, I'm stopping there. One or two points supporting the claim, most going to show this man as excessively aggressive and freaking out about nothing. How do you watch something like this and think it makes anti-feminist look good? Good arguments can be made against feminism, and these are very far from them. Even if it's not arguments but impressions or feelings, this guy is just an angry jerk.

Political correctness has become such a thorn in the sides of developers that even Elysian Shadows team addressed it on their blog. Found themselves forcing changes on their own work and censoring their ideas due to fearing outrage from SJWs. Developers are supposed to have the freedom to make the games they want, but SJWs are making a minor problem into a major issue and it is compounded by the fact of SJWs being in the industry.

Eh, one developer on Baldur's Gate 2: Enhanced Edition mentioned that the game was updated for modern sensibilities and included a trans character and expanded on the stories of a woman or two. Shit hit the fan over it. It wasn't a big deal.

Bam said:

I hold the belief that the movement is less about activism or human rights and more about the "illuminati", or whatever you'd like to call the "elite" 0.0001%, controlling the population. Would we have been able to comfortably afford a household on one income if not for Feminism? With so much "diversity" and "feels" in society these days why is it that for the first time in history we're projected to fare worse than our parents' generations?

Not taking the "illumanati" too literally, I can see that point and I like it. I just think you're misdirected in this anti-SJW focus. It seems like the Democrat/ Republican thing if you get too into it. It's a distraction from the actual problems or how to solve them. I guess I've gotten stuck doing that too. If you want to show that men are getting the short end of the stick, things like this video are more useful (it is possible you've posted it at some point):

video

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"two to the fighting eighth power"

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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Eh, one developer on Baldur's Gate 2: Enhanced Edition mentioned that the game was updated for modern sensibilities and included a trans character and expanded on the stories of a woman or two. Shit hit the fan over it. It wasn't a big deal.


Most gamers called them out for pushing social justice issues while the LGBT community called them out for making a token trans character which didn't help their fight for equality. Maybe it wasn't a big deal to you, but the developer came out and apologized for it and promised to do better in future endeavors.

I even made a mock article after seeing the outrage from gamers and LGBT.

Quote:

Scene 1: Sure, gender identity isn't determined by genitals. And? So the fuck what?

If she had said having a vagina doesn't make you a girl or woman I could have excepted that, but she went further and said it doesn't make you female. Female and male are your sex which is determined by your genitals. I'm fine with men identifying as women and vice versa, but this horse shit of more than two genders, binary, non-binary show just how stupid modern radical feminists have become.

Quote:

Scene 3: Does this mean you're angry all the time.

Because majority of the televised feminist are screaming, pissed off women or saying extremely anti-male comments. Like the #killallmen or #maletears (which the creators claimed were jokes), but are widely used by Twitter feminists to talk about their distaste for men.

The point of posting that video wasn't his claim of them all being feminists. The point was that that is how most of the populace view feminists because of the vocal minority. Because of the vocal minority the entire movement is tainted.

23 ways feminism made the world better for women.
23 ways feminism made the world better for men.
Now the wack jobs that are most vocal are actually arguing for things that would undo several of those in each list.

Look at the claims the Bud Light company brought up in its feminist push in one commercial...

Quote:

Women pay more for hair care products than men.

On average that is true because men buy basic shampoo that just cleans our hair while women have to buy shampoos that have scents, help with shine, bounce, etc., may or may not have special chemicals to protect hair color jobs, and even conditioner. Men, on average, just buy whatever shampoo they know will clean their hair, doesn't require perfumes, special chemicals, etc. and most men don't bother with conditioner.

Quote:

Women pay more to buy a car than men.

I couldn't find anything to prove or disprove that, but men pay more in car insurance because women are viewed to be more cautious drivers than men.

It brought up the wage gap, but the flaws in that have been pointed out since the 90s so I'm not going to cover that again.

I've seen it argued that women pay more for health insurance than men. Well of course they do. Women have more procedures that need to be done depending. Having a child requires a lot of doctor visits, special care, and viatmins. Then you have annual checks via Mammogram and Pap smear. Birth control. That is just for healthy women.

Feminists are pushing for body positivity and dviersity. This article happens to be for yoga. Feminists are right, why should we point out the massive health risks of being obese? Let's just be inclusive and let obese people inch closer and closer to diabetes, heart disease, and other medically proven risks of obesity!

What is this obsession with blaming men for women problems? "Women are oppressed because of patriarchy!" Clinton gets caught doing something that endangered national security, and blamed it on Colin Powell, "It was his idea". Though, Clinton is a bad example, as her past shows that when he husband was caught three or four times being a perv, instead of blaming him she tried to ruin the reputation of the women he harassed.

The other thing I'm tired of hearing repeated is the "rape culture" bullshit and the 1 in 5 or whatever they claim now about college rape is. The BJS released the numbers that state it is 1 in 53, which is still bad, but there is no need to lie and increase the severity of it.

In the US, women are equal to men. Women can apply for any job a man can. The problem is that they are trying to nerf the jobs so that the requirements are less for women. They kept claiming that the industry was sexist, but that study came out showing that women aren't discriminated against; rather they were just poor at the interview stage compared to men. That study hadn't been out a whole day before some were calling for interviews to be changed to make it easier for women to get in the industry. There are even feminist sites that go on, in length, about how bad meritocracy is and how it should be removed. Yeah, people shouldn't have their job or gain praise because they can actually do it, that would be chaotic.

Well, recent events makes it appear the eternal victim, Zoe Quinn, may be more of a manipulator than initially thought.

This is hilarious, imo:

video

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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I'll just leave this here
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6907

The only way Trump is going to be involved in a landslide is if the land surrounding the White House collapses into the Earth's core. -- bamccaig

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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I was trying to find that one a few posts ago. There was even one where I believe around someone attempting to pull that with Linus Torvalds, but I only vaguely recall that one.

Also, something similar just dropped regarding GamerGate, leaked logs that show Quinn, et. al. planned to get notoriety by lying about GG. The logs were verified by former Anti-GG member, Ian Miles Cheong Editor Gameranx. He even went on to pen this aricle:
http://heatst.com/tech/chat-logs-expose-crash-override-network-as-online-bullies/
And this one:
http://heatst.com/tech/ubisoft-game-developer-implicated-in-gamergate-related-doxing/

[APPEND]Found some of the Torvalds articles. Here are the first five articles from the Google search:
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2015/11/04/feminists-are-trying-to-frame-linus-torvalds-for-sexual-assault-claims-open-source-industry-veteran/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/06/linus_torvalds_targeted_by_honeytraps_says_eric_raymond/
http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2015/11/05/any-woman-in-tech-could-be-a-false-accusing-feminist-honey-trap-addled-open-source-guru-warns/
https://hacked.com/sjws-trying-frame-linux-creator-linus-torvalds-fake-sexual-assault-charges/
http://www.infoworld.com/article/3001440/linux/are-feminist-sjws-targeting-linus-torvalds-for-sexual-assault-charges.html

[APPEND II]
Wanted to touch on the diversity and inclusiveness that follows the talks of CoC and the different industries...Dan Slott is the writer of Amazing Spider-Man and Silver Surfer who stated this back on the 18th:
{"name":"Cq3tMGCVUAESRNQ.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/4\/4\/442706aaa2bdad4dde71a49a99cef258.jpg","w":540,"h":415,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/4\/4\/442706aaa2bdad4dde71a49a99cef258"}Cq3tMGCVUAESRNQ.jpg
Which prompted a reply, and this was Slott's reply to it:
{"name":"Cq3tNX5VYAAns7B.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/a\/ba5be2624efcb8ed9afdba90264e8a91.jpg","w":540,"h":540,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/a\/ba5be2624efcb8ed9afdba90264e8a91"}Cq3tNX5VYAAns7B.jpg
Slott is using the GGAutoblocker (which I'm on because I disagreed with Quinn, Anita, Cross, and Harper openly), but I still replied to it:

Quote:

Changing race of any existing character instead of creating new ones just shows how uncreative they are.

Everyone is demanding more creative things in all media, but that shows that for some, creative is nothing more than a matter of swapping genders or races and then retelling the same story. People are so busy being outraged over silly things and stressing over diversity that they are sacrificing originality and creativity to do a token gender swap or race swap to appear diverse to minorities. Diversity and inclusiveness are things that have to come naturally and not forced as being forced makes it very obvious. If you make a comic, novel, game, movie, or song and you have to make a character that has to blatantly state their sex, gender identity, or race then, in my opinion, you are making it just a token character. Swapping existing characters sex, gender identity, or race is also just a token gesture and nothing else.They are too busy being offended on behalf of minorities that they are pressing for existing character to be changed instead of creating new characters for said minorities to enjoy and get behind.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

beoran
Member #12,636
March 2011

The absurdity of the anti-GG/SJW crowd is that they seem to be against the damsel in distress rope, but yet have no qualms in invoking it upon themselves to gain sympathy. I dislike the trope when played straight because of it's triteness, and also, secondarily, because it doesn't give room for the damsel, even if male, to develop as a character. I feel that the fact that these people invoke the trope also betrays their intentions: it's also about keeping women down, to prevent them from developing themselves. They don't want smart followers, but rather fanatics to push around. If you tell women that tech and gaming are terrible places for them, you may succeed in scaring away a lot of them, likely even thosse who would be competent. Leaving more power for elite and more room for the incompetent to interlope again. The will to power strikes again!

This reminds me about a documentary I saw one time about Iran. Those who are incompetent for any other job in that country tend to become members of the religious police, to get paid to harass and take bribes from the competent. If you look at the people involved with the CCoC you'll see that the majority of them isn't contributing much or anything at all even to open, source. They just want a software police job. Which seems to be the job the main author landed at Github ...

As an aside, now I was thinking about a game like Crono Trigger, that has a double person in distress trope done right: First Crono saves Marle, and then, if you play the game right, Marle and Lucca go on and save Crono. In both cases, the characters are developed well and their plight is due to some overwhelming circumstances not some trivial weakness. A tale of friendship and love, from almost 20 years ago now. And with no tokenism whatsoever in sight. I think we need more stories like this. :)

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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beoran said:

If you tell women that tech and gaming are terrible places for them, you may succeed in scaring away a lot of them, likely even thosse who would be competent. Leaving more power for elite and more room for the incompetent to interlope again.

I agree. I even wrote a rant back in October of 2015.

I also agree about Chrono Trigger. Anita actually said Dying Light was a damsel in distress game just because of one section of the story.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

beoran
Member #12,636
March 2011

Yeah, I agree with the feeling toi that article.

Twitlonger... as an aside, I do think Twitter is partially to blame for the decay in debate culture. If you only have 150 characters to express yourself it will be without nuance nor . Twitter is fine if you use it for what it originally was intended to be: sort status updates, but it is worse than useless for serious debate.

Also, one more time on the dammsel in distress trope: I have to admit that I used a slight variation of that trope myself in the Atari 2600 game I made named "Ature". The hero is female, and so is the damsel... you decide what that means. ;) Seeing the space limitations of the platform it was utterly impossible to even add any dialoges at all to my action RPG, so I had to make do with something that could be expressed wordlessly. So, I'll admit that simplistic tropes have one advantage: you can use them without even having to use words. Same goes for treasure discovery, etc.

But I'd say that that the fact that I used rather trite "plot" elements doesn't detract from the game simply because, plot isn't really the point of the game. The point was to make an enjoyable a Zelda / Seiken Densetsu style action RPG within the limitations of the system. I think it went rather well, because the limitations helped me stay focused. On contemporary systems my progress is far slower because I tend to get continuously side tracked by al sorts of ideas I like to try out for good measure.

Disparaging a whole game just because you don't like a few plot points here and there is pointless. Same as causing a hullabaloo in an open source project just for the choice of a word such as "slave" or "master". But some people will go out of there way to be offended, or more precisely, to pretend to be offended and get paid by bigger fools to do so! In a sense, the problem is that there are buyers for outrage, or perhaps better said, people who are willing to pay in order to attempt to seem more virtuous, the virtue signallers, who are enabling all this nonsense.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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beoran said:

Twitlonger... as an aside, I do think Twitter is partially to blame for the decay in debate culture. If you only have 150 characters to express yourself it will be without nuance nor . Twitter is fine if you use it for what it originally was intended to be: sort status updates, but it is worse than useless for serious debate.

I disagree with the first sentence. Otherwise, yes it is difficult to converse in depth with 140 character limit.

I disagree with the first sentence because it isn't Twitter going around college campuses wanting safe spaces and things changed. The decay in debate culture is due to children going to college thinking it is to nurture and care for them like elementary, middle, and high schools have started doing since the mid to late 90s. They don't view college as a place to challenge your views, rather they see it as a place to baby them and have a walk to a degree. Sadder still is that many colleges are caving to them.

Debate brings around a change of view, and having their view of the world challenged is what social justice warriors and feminists hate the most. What better way to end disagreement than to label them, cut short or even remove any and all debate? Debate culture is dying because millennials don't want their views changed and therefore don't want to debate. I enjoy debate, that is why I don't block anyone on my social media, but anyone that claims to be SJW, Feminists, or a millennial has blocked me flat out because I challenge their views instead letting them sit in their world of "Everything is sexist, racist, homophobic, et. al. And it is your job to point it all out."

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

beoran
Member #12,636
March 2011

Well, I guess a generation of spoiled special snowflakes does the debate culture no good. Perhaps it is logical that they feel attracted to Twitter, a medium in which they can remain shallow. When I was in university, I engaged in long debates over usenet mailing lists. A 150 charater limit would have been enough for just the opening paragraph of most people's mails back then. Though I think that's what happens when people stoart to use technology they don't understand. It all becomes black magic.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002
avatar

I just gave a quick look at that link to the CoC you posted. The word "pledge" put up red flags, as well as "Add email address for CoC violations"! The code nazi's are coming for you! No thanks.



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