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Annexing Uktaine. Objections?
NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Oh, and for reference, here's the Wikipedia article with election results etc...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_referendum,_2014

Oh, and here is the link Putin's Facebook page, he (or a rep of his) is always posting about what he is doing, it seems pretty legitimate to me...
https://www.facebook.com/Putin.President

Irregardless of who said it, I think there is a good point made. It was okay for the Ukraine to leave Russia, but not okay for Crimea to leave Ukraine? Hypocrites anyone? How about any of the Arab spring rebellions, that was okay but this is not? Or Libya, or Syria, or Iran, how about South Korea? I guess it's only okay if the great moral authority and global police that is the USA says so.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

type568 said:

It wasn't. It may still happen though. The guys secured Crimea did this before securing the permission ;)

Dude, they rolled out armed forces into Crimea. How is that not using armed forces? Bull crap they did it without permission ::) Armies just don't work that way.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Dude, they rolled out armed forces into Crimea. How is that not using armed forces? Bull crap they did it without permission ::) Armies just don't work that way.

You better recheck your history then bud. Because they do work that way. And did work that way. And the Russian people of Crimea don't seem to mind.

In any event, it's none of our business. We are NOT the global police.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

Dude, they rolled out armed forces into Crimea. How is that not using armed forces? Bull crap they did it without permission ::) Armies just don't work that way.

To be honest I'm still lacking proofs it's Russian army had been securing the area. However, using armed forces generally assumes blood. At least it's been this way for the human history. Not this time, bravo.

But yeah, well.. Detaching Kosovo is OK, if U.S. says so. Without referendum if I'm correct. Didn't ask the people, just asked the NATO.

Detaching Crimea, which wanted to be detached(but NOT asking permission from NATO) is apparently illegal. And why? Because of.. Kiev laws! Not Crimean laws, Kiev laws!

Only good thing is that now this hypocrisy is pathetic whining. :)

Ah yes, one more thing.. The bloody Kiev overthrow is legal. Peaceful detachment of Crimea, that is WILLING to detach isn't legal.
Just the bold text. Is everyone OK with it?

Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007

NiteHackr said:

We are NOT the global police.

Like it or not, yes, yes you are. By being the strongest nation in the world you hold a certain responsibility. Besides, it's in the U.S. interest not to let things escalate. The world being so connected economically as it is... A situation in eastern Europe would definitely not be beneficial to anybody.

Stop living in a bubble. I realize the U.S. is huge and all. But any situation in the world will affect you, don't you think? I personally love the fact that the U.S. is the world police. No big wars for long time now. Why do you think this is so?

In capitalist America bank robs you.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

type568 said:

Ah yes, one more thing.. The bloody Kiev overthrow is legal. Peaceful detachment of Crimea, that is WILLING to detach isn't legal.
Just the bold text. Is everyone OK with it?

If it had been done by the people for the people, sure. As it is it was a forceful landgrab by a tyrant bent on proving his strength after a large embarrassment. It would also have helped if the refferendom included all of the options rather than just leaving.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
avatar

International polls shows that world, including significant portion of Americans, deem US as greatest obstacle to peace

“Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty. This is known as "bad luck.”

― Robert A. Heinlein

Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007

People can think what they want. I see the facts. Look at the world before the U.S. was a big player and after. You be the judge of what is more peaceful. ;)

Obstacle to peace? Are you mad? (don't answer that) We're living in the most peaceful time in all of human history. No doubt due to the U.S. having a strangle hold on much of the world. I'm not complaining.

In capitalist America bank robs you.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

Vanetto, there are no big words because big nations can't even think a war of one against the other can benefit either. And smaller things escalate pretty damn regularly, and many of'em wouldn't escalate, or would quickly end if not the U.S.

So I really don't see how does the U.S. help to keep peace.

@Thomas
There were two options. Leave, or stay. What else?
Oh, I saw something in this thread about the second option being "join Russia later". Well it's BS. And someone asked me here to prove some media is propaganda. Name me the media made you think the other option is also Joining Russia, I'll increase my list of western propaganda :P

If it had been done by the people for the people, sure.

No. People got what they wanted in a rightful & peaceful way which was denied to them by their repressive government & bloody government. Dot. :]

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

This long article from Tokyo seems to sum up every major party's involvement in the matter including the US, EU, and Russia, as well as internal politics.

For example, how the US has been trying to seed dissension from satellite states of Russia so as to prop up military bases around Russia and cut them off from key resources like Serbia.

None of the players seem to have any care about the people involved. And I certainly haven't forgotten the US neocon's wanton lust for war over Georgia a few years ago.

p.s. If that long article is exemplary of the kind of journalism that Modern Tokyo Times puts forth, I'm definitely going to be reading more of their material. It's like night-and-day with the kind of headline, news clip, crap that 99% of news that I see on a day to day basis.

-----sig:
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"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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type568 said:

No. People got what they wanted in a rightful & peaceful way which was denied to them by their repressive government & bloody government.

They weren't given the chance to do anything in a rightful and peaceful way. It was decided for them by another country invading, and threatening the use of deadly force.

Quote:

There were two options. Leave, or stay. What else?

No, the two options were leave, and leave. Either directly joining Russia, or full autonomy with a small connection to Ukraine. There was no "maintain previous status".

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Bob Keane
Member #7,342
June 2006

Vanneto said:

We're living in the most peaceful time in all of human history.

Is that true, Afghanis, Iraqis, Libyans, and quite a few other peoples? The only reason this could be called a peaceful era is because no one has declared open war. A side note: UPS has put delivery restrictions on shipping to Crimea.

By reading this sig, I, the reader, agree to render my soul to Bob Keane. I, the reader, understand this is a legally binding contract and freely render my soul.
If we get apple juice from squeezing apples, and we get prunes from drying out plums, where does prune juice come from?
Hi Randall Monroe.

Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007

People are still dying, no doubt. But you always have to put it into perspective. Substantially more people died before than now. But seriously, don't listen to me, go look at some numbers. Go back a few hundred years and compare the casualties compared to the population then.

I found "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined" by Steven Pinker to be enlightening on this matter.

In capitalist America bank robs you.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

They weren't given the chance to do anything in a rightful and peaceful way.

Well, exactly. For 20 years they weren't given the chance.

Quote:

Either directly joining Russia, or full autonomy with a small connection to Ukraine.

Well, it is kind of how it was. The amount showed up & voted for Russia didn't seem to mind.

By the way, in one of your previous messages you mentioned about that it was wrong because it wasn't done by people for people.
Well, Maidan also wasn't. Though it was also bloody.
If you think people of Kiev are wealthy enough to stay off work for months, and pay for their stay there- you're seriously wrong.
More than this, we've no reason to think the amount of people against yanukovich exceeded the amount of people for him, especially in such a manner.

However, this has also set a precedent for other regious. As I mentioned above Donetsk has asked for referendum. Should it get it, it's all fine. And if it doesn't, seems just for you?

pkrcel
Member #14,001
February 2012

p.s. If that long article is exemplary of the kind of journalism that Modern Tokyo Times puts forth, I'm definitely going to be reading more of their material. It's like night-and-day with the kind of headline, news clip, crap that 99% of news that I see on a day to day basis.

well....I did not read the article itself but glanced at the "moderntokiotimes photos" thumbnails in the footer....

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

type568 said:

Well, exactly. For 20 years they weren't given the chance.

Their previous laws allowed them to have a referendum. Why didn't they?

Quote:

Well, it is kind of how it was.

Nope. This was more like a really small connection. more like canada and britain, rather than what they had before which was some autonomy inside ukraine.

Basically the question amounted to "Should Crimea stay a part of Ukraine" and the two answers were "No" and "No". There was no "Yes" or "Yes, with some more autonomy".

Quote:

Well, Maidan also wasn't.

I think there were a good number of people there that believed in it. And a good many that were there 'because meddling'.

All of that said, if that article is accurate, the actions of the US have been absolutely reprehensible (again). I can understand it making Russia upset, but I don't think that means an invasion was the only solution ::)

Quote:

However, this has also set a precedent for other regious. As I mentioned above Donetsk has asked for referendum. Should it get it, it's all fine. And if it doesn't, seems just for you?

All I ask is that it be done more by the book. Less army, and less rigged votes.

I recently read (yesterday) that Kiev is granting more responsibility and power to regional and city governments now. Whether thats enough to stem the tide, I don't know.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

video

[edit: Wrong video, ha]

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
avatar

I love the way people keep saying "the West are hypocrites! They have done what Russia are doing!"

It wouldn't f*****g stand up in court would it? "You are accused of raping and murdering a bunch of people, how do you plead?"

"well, guilty, but that bloke in the news last week did it so......"

[EDIT]

Just to confirm, I'm not saying anyone has been raping or murdering, it's a metaphor.

----------------------------------------------------
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NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Dizzy Egg said:

Just to confirm, I'm not saying anyone has been raping or murdering, it's a metaphor.

No, that would require someone to be doing something by force, against their will, and that hasn't happened In Crimea. The people chose to leave with the peaceful protection by Russia and no bloodshed what so ever. That's about as good as one could possibly ask. And if it had been American forces in there protecting English speaking people while they voted to leave, there would be no controversy right now. Oh that's right, American protection usually involves stealth bombers, I forgot.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

You forget that Russia entered Ukraine. Crimea is/was a part of Ukraine.

I'll bring up what I said earlier... I don't like the way the US government is treating the north westerners. So I'll go in there with tanks and weapons and "liberate them". Obviously its the right thing to do!

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Yodhe23
Member #8,726
June 2007

So Putin is going to allow Dagestan and Chechnya referendums to see if they want to stay a part of Russia?

No I thought not....

www.justanotherturn.com

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

Their previous laws allowed them to have a referendum. Why didn't they?

Donetsk asks for referendum now. Why doesn't it have?
Because Kiev doesn't want it.
And it didn't want it before. Because the west, which is in power has interests that differ from those of the east. And there's no way Crimea would bet let away without protection(you call it armed invasion).

Quote:

Basically the question amounted to "Should Crimea stay a part of Ukraine" and the two answers were "No" and "No". There was no "Yes" or "Yes, with some more autonomy".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_referendum,_2014#Choices
Quit smoking. Or stop listening to those smoke too much.

Quote:

I think there were a good number of people there that believed in it. And a good many that were there 'because meddling'.

Unrest in capital, armed replacement of power- IS OK & democratic.
Unrest in Donetsk, demand for referendum denied by those made unrest in Kiev- is also OK.
So first group gets what it wants, second doesn't.
Because no "legal basis" for the second to have referendum. To aquire it should they storm Kiev? But they live in Donetsk!
Crimea asks for referendum, it's denied and Russia intervenes. Also not ok.
Oh come on, shut the double standards. I do understand your will to persuade me it's wrong, and there are problems(although debatable) with "itnernational laws" and etc', but seriously. I really can't believe you can be sure you're right. Crimeans DID want to go away. You saw it was no way an occupation. What has happened on Maidan is much more of an occupation than what has happened in Crimea. Just in Maidan it was orgonized more carefully.

Quote:

All I ask is that it be done more by the book. Less army, and less rigged votes.

It's really better with the army, and no blood rather than armed mob and yes blood.
Basically orgonizers of Maidan are murderers, but due to the fact they are related to the new power they'r not to be judged. That's already more than enough to be a reason not to consider the government legitimate.

Furthermore. Less army, "more book"? Kiev doesn't release it. That's just how it is. Same as Yodhe23 mentioned about some Russia regions. I've no clue if they wanna quit, but they ain't gettin' it under no circumstances. Same is true for Crimea, Donetsk and any other region.

Also no now Kiev has an army that isn't officially army, but can fight any other protesting group(same guys ousted Yanukovich).

What's the democratic way out of this? Correct, there's non.

*****

And now with U.S.(how is it fcking their business? it's rather EU business, not their) new sanctions, we have some potential for a full scale cold war, with Russian USD transactions banned, U.S. assets in Russia nationalized etc'

Washington Times said:

The president also said he signed an executive order Thursday allowing the U.S. to sanction certain sectors of Russian industry, although he said such a move was “not our preferred outcome” because it could harm the global economy.

This could result in my first paragraph. I just hope these guys are smart enough to not let it spin out of control.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

type568 said:

Donetsk asks for referendum now. Why doesn't it have?

You didn't answer my question ;) It was legal before, and they most likely would have still wanted to separate then, why didn't they?

Quote:

Quit smoking. Or stop listening to those smoke too much.

Quote:

The ballots also lacked an against all choice with voters forced to choose either one choice or the other, effectively restricting citizens from voting for the status quo.

Quote:

Unrest in capital, armed replacement of power- IS OK & democratic.
Unrest in Donetsk, demand for referendum denied by those made unrest in Kiev- is also OK.

I think you're misunderstanding, or conflating things.

For point 1, IF it was a majority of the people that wanted a change, and it wasn't orchestrated by other countries, YES. It's perfectly fine for the people a nation to oust leaders they are no longer happy with. It is NOT fine for it to be caused by other countries meddling (which this seems to have been). I highly doubt the protests would have ever gotten past peaceful demonstrations if there wasn't any manipulation by other countries.

As for point 2, I think Crimea should get to have a referendum. One that isn't held at the point of a gun, and one that wasn't so obviously manipulated from the very beginning.

Tell me, what reason did Russia have for censoring the media in Crimea? If everyone wanted it, there would be no reason to shut off TV and Radio stations, and replace it with Russia propaganda. I heard rumor from someone who actually lives in Crimea that there was talk that the cell phone and internet access might get cut off as well. There is no way to explain any of that other than that you have something to hide.

Quote:

Crimea asks for referendum, it's denied and Russia intervenes. Also not ok.

It should be up to Crimea to handle its own affairs, not the US, not the EU, not Canada, not Russia.

Quote:

Crimeans DID want to go away.

They want to go now, after the ass-hats that caused Maidan to be such a mess screwed with things, and Russia spread a ton of propaganda around.

Quote:

You saw it was no way an occupation.

It was and is an occupation. Up till Russia invaded, the land and people were ukrainian. Then Russia took it away by force. There can be no arguing that.

Quote:

What has happened on Maidan is much more of an occupation than what has happened in Crimea. Just in Maidan it was orgonized more carefully.

I'd argue it was less carefully organized. The original grass roots movement was just that, a bunch of people unhappy with the current government. Then it was co opted by crazy nationalists that were likely funded by the US.

Quote:

What's the democratic way out of this? Correct, there's non.

False. The current people in charge should do what everyone expected, and call a new election right away, and step down. Will that happen? I don't think I trust them to do that based on their past actions sadly.

You are ABSOLUTELY lying to yourself if you think Russia is in this to help the people of Crimea. Russia barely tolerates its existing populace, and in some cases heavily discriminates against them. Especially if you disagree with putin or the current government's goals.

Quote:

And now with U.S.(how is it fcking their business? it's rather EU business, not their) new sanctions, we have some potential for a full scale cold war, with Russian USD transactions banned, U.S. assets in Russia nationalized etc'

It isn't their business. Had they left well enough alone, the only issue in Ukraine right now would be some peaceful protests.

Quote:

This could result in my first paragraph. I just hope these guys are smart enough to not let it spin out of control.

I highly doubt they know what they are doing. It's all reactionary. None of this would have been an issue if the US didn't "take action" in ukraine to begin with.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Aikei_c
Member #14,871
January 2013
avatar

type568 said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_referendum,_2014#Choices Quit smoking. Or stop listening to those smoke too much.

Have you actually read this constitution?
Here: http://sevkrimrus.narod.ru/ZAKON/1992konst.htm
In brief:
1) Crimea can enter into international agreements with other countries, have diplomatic relationships with other countries (directly, not through Kiev)
2) Crimea has its own, Crimean citizenship. Citizens of Ukraine are not necessarily citizens of Crimea, according to this constitution.
3) Crimea has its own president which is not in any way answerable to the Ukrainian president.
4) Crimea has its own legislation. Nothing mentioned about Ukrainian legislation being applcable to Crimea.

Actually, the only part of constitution which (briefly) mentions Ukraine is that Crimea is actually part of Ukraine, and Crimea may (or may not) delegate some of its authorities to Ukraine.

[EDIT]
And no, it isn't how it was before 2014. There was another constitution in force.



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