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You can't have enough DRM. Assassin's Creed 2
Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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Constant net connection required to play Assassin's Creed 2 on PC.

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We've just received Assassin's Creed 2 and Settlers VII for review, and verified with Ubisoft that the DRM is the same as the boxed product. If you get disconnected while playing, you're booted out of the game. All your progress since the last checkpoint or savegame is lost, and your only options are to quit to Windows or wait until you're reconnected.

...

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Even if everyone in the world had perfect internet connections that never dropped out, this would still mean that any time Ubisoft's 'Master servers' are down for any reason, everyone playing a current Ubisoft game is kicked out of it and loses their progress.

...

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The only benefit we're being offered is the ability to store our savegames online.

This one's a little weird :-/ I'd love to be able to play with my savegame in any computer, but again, I don't have more than 1 computer that could run it. :P We should analyze what are the pros and cons more deeply.

IMHO, they're trying to kill PC gaming. Steam helped a lot keeping the PC as a good platform, but the latest DRM is absurd.

Just look at Bioshock 2's DRM:

Steam DRM + SecuROM install limits + Games for Windows LIVE. You are required to pass both Steam and SecuROM checks, and you need to log in to GFWL to be able to even save your game. You have the installation limit(I think it's about 15 or so), and it can be restored by contacting Microsoft servers.

Thanks god I didn't like Assassin's Creed 1 at all.

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My games: [GiftCraft] - [Blocky Rhythm[SH2011]] - [Elven Revolution] - [Dune Smasher!]

Oscar Giner
Member #2,207
April 2002
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Yeah, the first Bioshock also had installation limits even in the Steam version, something very criticized at its time (in theory Steam allows you to install games wherever you want, but adding an installation limit breaks this feature). It was removed in a later patch IIRC.

It's a pity they include this kind of DRM. I was interested in Settlers VII since I'm a fan of the series, I guess I'll have to pass. It's even more pity that pirates will be able to play these games flawlessly while legal consumers will get booted out if their connection fails. So yeah it looks like they're trying to promote pirating :P

I don't know, I guess I could just buy the game and then get a crack to play without these problems, but I don't want to support this kind of DRM so I don't think I'll do it :/

Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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It just seems that with so ridiculous DRM, they're actually promoting piracy.

More DRM -> Less sales, piracy is delayed some days. If companies have less sales, they'll stop releasing the games for PC.
Boycott because of DRM -> No sales, no more PC Gaming.

Pirates won't buy the game just because of waiting 3 or 4 more days til it gets working flawlessly. They wouldn't have bought it anyway since they didn't have the money probably.

I'd hate if gaming became console exclusive. Maybe OnLive will be the only way to keep it alive?

TranslatorHack 2010, a human translation chain in a.cc.
My games: [GiftCraft] - [Blocky Rhythm[SH2011]] - [Elven Revolution] - [Dune Smasher!]

Trezker
Member #1,739
December 2001
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"Boycott because of DRM -> No sales, no more PC Gaming."

Well if the big companies don't want us to play on PC, I still think it's a good idea to boycott.

But don't just boycott their PC games. Boycott all their games. If you only buy their console games they're gonna think you don't want to play on PC. So you have to stop buying their games completely and tell them why.

m c
Member #5,337
December 2004
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These companies don't make such great games anyway. Some of my favourite games have been made by upstart companies from Eastern Europe. These big game companies might be on the way down, which just means there is now an oppurtunity for fresh blood to get some meat.

(\ /)
(O.o)
(> <)

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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dario ff said:

IMHO, they're trying to kill PC gaming.

That makes a lot of sense.
In recent news, Calvin Klein has started a new advertising campaign with the slogan "You're ugly, we don't want you putting on our clothes."

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Just when you think that Steam was over the line with the need of an internet connection when you legally buy Half-Life 2 to play the game, something even worse comes around. I understand what they're trying to do, but they're doing it wrong.

Personally I don't like this new paradigm - everything online, so that your computer serves just as a terminal (not this case, but anyway). The connection can drop. Some fool can cut the cable when repairing waterpipes. Hell my modem likes to disconnect at random times and you have to manually reset it, because you can't even connect to it remotely. And finally I own a laptop, I take it with me to the country. If there's nothing else to do in the evenings I play games. There's no connection out there...

Luckily for me Assasin's creed doesn't interest me at all and Settlers ended for me with second installment.

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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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It's been suggested (with data to back it) that first day piracy is the worst and that measures taken to delay piracy even a couple of days increases sales. It all comes down to greedy people that would rather download off the Internet then spend their money, but can afford to spend their money and will if they have to instead of waiting a couple of days.

Game developers do anything they can to prevent first day piracy. Some ways work and some ways don't. You can't fault them for trying. You can only fault the pirates for making it justified. Come up with a pirate proof mechanism that doesn't interfere with legitimate users and these problems will go away. Unfortunately, you can't (except for locked down platforms, like gaming consoles).

Pirates are killing PC gaming. They're the ones you have to blame. You could always start spreading fake cracks of games that are indistinguishable until they're actually running. Bonus points if they're actually serious viruses that cripple machines or burn out hardware. Flood the ecosystem with enough of these and piracy will suffer a great blow. Maybe this will be enough for game developers to relax.

Albeit, Steam is the saving grace, so I don't see why companies still insist on adding extra DRM on top of Steam'd games. Those companies can go to Hell. >:(

Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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That makes a lot of sense.
In recent news, Calvin Klein has started a new advertising campaign with the slogan "You're ugly, we don't want you putting on our clothes."

This is a different problem with different interests. The PC is a platform that requires far more testing and quality assurance than a console. Just look at some of the folders in recent games, and you'll see tons of different shader files, for different hardware and configurations. Are the costs worth the PC sales?

bamccaig said:

so I don't see why companies still insist on adding extra DRM on top of Steam'd games. Those companies can go to Hell

More annoying DRM for the PC, and it makes you wonder if it'd be better to just play it on a console.

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Pirates are killing PC gaming. They're the ones you have to blame.

I wouldn't like to turn this thread into a Pirate Vs legit war(but that's expected from a DRM thread). Some people are greedy, some people can't afford them, and others grew up with it(what happened to me, since here in Argentina piracy is just common practice.). The problem with pirating is that most of the time you'd have problems like faulty cracks, fake cracks(virus) and who knows what else. With the newest DRM, the situation is reversing, giving pirates more pros vs the legits.

m c said:

These companies don't make such great games anyway.

That isn't the problem. It's the publishers that force them to use this DRM, it has little to do with the quality of the game.

TranslatorHack 2010, a human translation chain in a.cc.
My games: [GiftCraft] - [Blocky Rhythm[SH2011]] - [Elven Revolution] - [Dune Smasher!]

OnlineCop
Member #7,919
October 2006
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Allegro 6: Now with Steam DRM + SecuROM... play your games OUR way.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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dario ff said:

I wouldn't like to turn this thread into a Pirate Vs legit war(but that's expected from a DRM thread). Some people are greedy, some people can't afford them, and others grew up with it(what happened to me, since here in Argentina piracy is just common practice.).

Yes, lots of people do it because they "don't know any better". So what do you expect game developers to do about it? Pirates defend their practices so the developers are doing what they can to make their business sustainable. Like I said, the pirates are to blame. Most pirates deny that they're doing any harm. They defend that their affect on the industry is negligible or that the industry is so rich that it does no harm, but you have to wonder why they go to the trouble of inconveniencing legitimate users so much if pirates weren't hurting them in the first place...

Not being able to afford something isn't an excuse to attain it without paying. Certainly not for luxury items like video games. Sure, they might not be able to buy it regardless, but why should they get it for free while I have to pay? At the same time, why save up to buy something when I can spend all of my money on other things and then use the "I can't afford it" excuse too?

dario ff said:

The problem with pirating is that most of the time you'd have problems like faulty cracks, fake cracks(virus) and who knows what else. With the newest DRM, the situation is reversing, giving pirates more pros vs the legits.

Which is why I said the piracy channels should be flooded with too much malware to sift through. If it takes you 1000 downloads (and 20 reinstallations of Windows) before you find a legitimate copy most people are going to give up and just buy the game (or go without). When the pirates come up with a strategy to say "I have a legit copy over here", mimic their behavior with another 20 illegitimate copies. Fight fire with fire. It sucks for the pirates, but it's good for the legitimate consumers, which is what DRM is intended to actually achieve.

Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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bamccaig said:

Not being able to afford something isn't an excuse to attain it without paying.

Of course, I never defended their excuses.

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It sucks for the pirates, but it's good for the legitimate consumers, which is what DRM is intended to actually achieve.

What I fear is that companies excuse themselves that the piracy is so strong, and use DRM to clear the last remaining of the legitimate PC users. Bye bye PC gaming, welcome next-gen exclusive console titles. And yes, I'm a conspiracy nut sometimes.

Still, I keep my hopes up PC gaming can't be killed, because companies like these will just go and make their games for consoles, and not annoy PC users with their faulty protections. Companies like Blizzard'll surely keep the PC as a good platform, because that's their audience, and they don't even need to make excessive protection to have good sales. WoW is a great example of this. Release the product freely, and offer good paid servers. Pirates have their own servers set up, but they get horrible speeds and bots. They get what they deserve.

I can't imagine how would you do this for something like a single-player game, but there's surely a good way around.

TranslatorHack 2010, a human translation chain in a.cc.
My games: [GiftCraft] - [Blocky Rhythm[SH2011]] - [Elven Revolution] - [Dune Smasher!]

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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bamccaig said:

Which is why I said the piracy channels should be flooded with too much malware to sift through.

And speeding tickets should involve cutting of your finger. After 20 finger amputations, surely most people are going to give up speeding. Sucks for the speeders, but it's good for motorists that follow the law.

You really should stop making the same old argument, you hypocrite. Until you stop speeding, your arguments against the far far far more negligible crime of software piracy ring rather hollow.

Also...

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but you have wonder why they go to the trouble of inconveniencing legitimate users so much if pirates weren't hurting them in the first place

Because they are idiots and want to turn legitimate users into pirates. Or... maybe by increasing piracy, they are hoping to reduce the effects of global warming... which would make them not so foolish after all ;)

dario ff said:

Companies like Blizzard'll surely keep the PC as a good platform, because that's their audience, and they don't even need to make excessive protection to have good sales.

That's why they kept the LAN option in StarCraft II... oh wait...

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Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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SiegeLord said:

You really should stop making the same old argument, you hypocrite. Until you stop speeding, your arguments against the far far far more negligible crime of software piracy ring rather hollow.

;D

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That's why they kept the LAN option in StarCraft II... oh wait...

Oh shit, forgot about that. I should keep up with the news more often. Then I have no good company to hope for :'(

TranslatorHack 2010, a human translation chain in a.cc.
My games: [GiftCraft] - [Blocky Rhythm[SH2011]] - [Elven Revolution] - [Dune Smasher!]

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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SiegeLord said:

And speeding tickets should involve cutting of your finger. After 20 finger amputations, surely most people are going to give up speeding. Sucks for the speeders, but it's good for motorists that follow the law.

You really should stop making the same old argument, you hypocrite. Until you stop speeding, your arguments against the far far far more negligible crime of software piracy ring rather hollow.

We've been over this. I don't bitch about cops pulling me over, least of all for speeding. I pay my fine. >:(

Mokkan
Member #4,355
February 2004
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I don't pirate games anymore because I think it's unethical. But I also don't do much PC gaming anymore, as I find the hardware cost prohibitive. DRM is a bummer, too, but not the biggest problem for me.

SiegeLord said:

You really should stop making the same old argument, you hypocrite. Until you stop speeding, your arguments against the far far far more negligible crime of software piracy ring rather hollow.

That's a pretty silly argument. "You do something wrong, therefore holding a belief that anything is wrong... is wrong!"

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Hard Rock
Member #1,547
September 2001
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I don't think Assassins Creed for PC sold very well, so if I had to guess it looks like they are experimenting with new DRM to see how well it does to decide what gives better/worse sales. The push for future titles is going to be even more reliant on online stuff, so be prepared to see this more and more.

Assassins Creed is largely a console game, so it's not like it's a huge deal if you don't want to play the PC version. PC gamers will always have their own PC games that are better played on PCs. This isn't such a game, so what's the big deal? If it was a true PC game, I just wouldn't play it. It's not like there's a shortage of quality games or anything.

In any case it's not like all PC games are completely going to the extreme with anti piracy, Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 are just a simple CD check for the most part. Broken Sword 4 when I picked it up didn't even have a CD check (pleasant surprise, after Broken Sword 3) and lots of new games don't either. Support those games if you feel so strongly about it.

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SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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bamccaig said:

I pay my fine.

So... paying a fine makes it okay? A fine is not a fee for a "license to speed". You are applying your logic inconsistently to the two crimes, making you a hypocrite. Both crimes are next to negligible, and both involve "something for nothing", time saved in case of speeding, that you can spend on other activities. What about people who don't speed, and therefore don't have that luxury of extra time? This is exactly like your money argument. You shouldn't get that extra time because you are breaking the law.

Mokkan said:

That's a pretty silly argument. "You do something wrong, therefore holding a belief that anything is wrong... is wrong!"

I wouldn't say that his argument is wrong because of that (although, his being inconsistent can be grounds for it). He's a hypocrite because of those things. I don't really care for the argument itself... it is of course no question that software piracy is illegal... but is software piracy morally "wrong"? You can't categorically say that without choosing a common moral foundation. I (and others, perhaps) refuse to take bammcaig's moral foundation, therefore preventing us from ever agreeing by definition. That said, inconsistently applied moral foundation is no foundation at all.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
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Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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SiegeLord said:

but is software piracy morally "wrong"? You can't categorically say that without choosing a common moral foundation.

Is theft morally wrong? Because that's what software piracy is, when you boil it down.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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I suppose she's paying her fine

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They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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SiegeLord said:

So... paying a fine makes it okay? A fine is not a fee for a "license to speed". You are applying your logic inconsistently to the two crimes, making you a hypocrite. Both crimes are next to negligible, and both involve "something for nothing", time saved in case of speeding, that you can spend on other activities. What about people who don't speed, and therefore don't have that luxury of extra time? This is exactly like your money argument. You shouldn't get that extra time because you are breaking the law.

It's OK already if you do it safely and remain in control of your vehicle. As myself and others have told you in the past, speed limits are not some physical limitation of the vehicles or humans. It's an average to account for a certain amount of incompetence in some most operators. Those that are actually adept at driving and care about it can drive much faster completely safely. They're not allowed to because it's infeasible to enforce who is and isn't competent, but that doesn't make it wrong to do it. It just means the law can't account for it and needs to treat the competent like all others.

I'm not against piracy because it's illegal. I'm against it because I know that it is immoral. And I didn't even need anyone's God to tell me. :o

Company A pays Company B to do work with the intent to license the finished work to consumers who wish to use the work. This licensing is a way for Company A to first make the invested money back and then for both Company A and Company B to hopefully make a profit on top (the time, effort, and risk isn't worth making if there's no net gain in the end).

Obviously, the fewer people that license the work, the less successful the project will be. If too few people license the work then it will result in Company A losing money (and reduce Company A's incentive to invest in Company B in the future). Some projects are guaranteed to fail due to taking risks (you all insist that developers should take risks instead of making the same old games, but even the same old games are risk enough, let alone something completely new and different) that don't work out for whatever various reasons (pirates aside). Successful projects need to not only make up for their own expenses and risks, but also account for the losses incurred from failed projects in order for Company A to stay afloat (and since Company A funds most Company Bs, the Company Bs' futures also rely on the overwhelming success of some of their collective projects). In order to legally use the work, you are therefore required to license it at a price projected to maximize return.

Those that don't license it are not contributing to the industry that produced it, which is both unfair to the developers and publishers, but also to the paying customers that do license it. Essentially, if people don't license the work, there's no incentive for Company A nor Company B to produce it. The industry dies. This is how useless industries that nobody cares about go away. The gaming industry is no such industry. If you're pirating the work then you clearly do care about it. You're just not contributing your share to the production of the work. You are a mooch off of the publishers and consumers that do pay for the production. Are you saying that's right/moral?

I always find it humorous frightening how religious people have trouble distinguishing right from wrong. They basically need "God" to tell them... I've had sweet innocent young women tell me that if there was "hypothetically" no God then they might as well just steal and murder. To them, right and wrong are God-made. Without a God, they wouldn't believe in right and wrong. :-/

Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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Hard Rock said:

I don't think Assassins Creed for PC sold very well, so if I had to guess it looks like they are experimenting with new DRM to see how well it does to decide what gives better/worse sales.

I don't care much about AC too either. The problem is that Ubisoft is using this ugly DRM for Settlers VII too, which some of you might've been expecting or not. Also, I understand if this kind of DRM is on a Digital download release, but the boxed version has it too ???

Quote:

In any case it's not like all PC games are completely going to the extreme with anti piracy, Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 are just a simple CD check for the most part. Broken Sword 4 when I picked it up didn't even have a CD check (pleasant surprise, after Broken Sword 3) and lots of new games don't either. Support those games if you feel so strongly about it.

That's something nice. And I support that you don't need such faulty DRM to stop piracy in the first place. Give privileges to the users that buy the game, don't hinder the process of installing an running it. It's rare that pirates get access to DLC services with a fake CD-Key. If DLCs were better, and actually free, you could keep your legit clients interested, and actually avoid the trade-in of games that some shops allow.

DLC as ridiculous of what I heard in Dragon Age: Origins is more insulting than useful :P

Is theft morally wrong? Because that's what software piracy is, when you boil it down.

Not this discussion again please. It's hard to compare piracy against theft. Not every pirated download is a lost sale. If you're talking about copyright, I wouldn't compare it to theft.

I suppose she's paying her fine

Bull@shit, that's just propaganda IMO. There are cases of software pirates being caught, but they're free in a short time.

TranslatorHack 2010, a human translation chain in a.cc.
My games: [GiftCraft] - [Blocky Rhythm[SH2011]] - [Elven Revolution] - [Dune Smasher!]

Billybob
Member #3,136
January 2003

bamccaig said:

Which is why I said the piracy channels should be flooded with too much malware to sift through.

Freelance hackers are always smarter than employed engineers. Odd, but typically true. People and companies have tried what you propose ... it did not turn out too well. Why, precisely? Well, for one, most people just sort by most seeds on torrents. Fake torrents have few to no seeders. The people who download the fake torrents find out and don't seed. The good torrents get seeded.

Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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Billybob said:

People and companies have tried what you propose

True, Batman Arkham Asylum had a bugged leaked release. What irritated me about it though that every blog or magazine went praising "Ooooh, that's smart!!!". I think it's already been done before in other games, but I can't come up with a good example.

TranslatorHack 2010, a human translation chain in a.cc.
My games: [GiftCraft] - [Blocky Rhythm[SH2011]] - [Elven Revolution] - [Dune Smasher!]



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