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Heating by reverse air conditioner
Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Hi all,

Fact:

  • Standard household heating takes all the required energy from the power supply and converts it to heat.

Alternative form of heating proposed:

  • Use an air conditioner that doesn't refresh the air but keeps the air outside separate from the air inside the room.

  • Install the air conditioner in reverse, as if it's trying to cool the big outdoors, and the exhaust heat goes into the room.

  • As far as possible, design the system so that the heat derived from the power supply will leave the system into the room, not into the outdoors. (Is this possible?)

Theory:

  • While some of the energy from the power supply will be lost as kinetic energy in the outside, most of it will be converted to heat.

  • Necessarily, the heat entering the room will come partly from the power supply and partly from the outdoors.

  • Because some of the required heat is coming from the outdoors, you need less energy from the power supply in order to achieve the required level of heating.

  • The outdoors is big, so the extra cold out there will disperse, hopefully meaning that the extra heat loss through the room's walls will be negligible.

Conclusion:

  • This form of heating should be more efficient in terms of benefit per unit of power supply consumed.

Someone at work who's studied engineering didn't seem to agree with me. He was talking about some of the energy being lost as torque (presumably that means kinetic energy in the air outside), some being lost as chemical energy (what?), and all sorts of other losses I couldn't get him to enumerate. He's a very smart guy, but I don't think he's great at explaining what he means. In retrospect, I wonder if he was challenging conservation of energy. He gave me an example of compressing a spring (potential energy) and then dissolving it in acid, and asked me where that energy went. At the time, I couldn't understand what point he was trying to make. He also kept accidentally talking about "creating energy" and such, when he should have been talking about "converting energy".

So I'm curious as to what you guys think. Discuss. :)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Peter Hull
Member #1,136
March 2001

I seem to remember at school that they said that all energy eventually dissipates in the form of heat (entropy or some such)

If this is the case, how can any form of heating fail to be less than 100% efficient?

Pete

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

It doesn't fail. The proposed new system takes some of its heat from the outdoors, so I'm hoping it is actually MORE than 100% efficient (if you measure 'heat entering room' against 'power supply consumed').

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
avatar

You're basically correct. But geothermally sourced heat pumps are usually more efficient (if a bit less convenient) than air-sourced heat pumps (at least around here, geothermal is the only wide-spread heat pump solution for household heating).

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Move to the Democratic People's Republic of Vivendi Universal (formerly known as Sweden) - officially democracy- and privacy-free since 2008-06-18!

Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
avatar

I'd say that a air-sourced heat pump is more efficient yes. But simply reversing an AC would probably not work very well.

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Woot, they exist already! I've just never heard of them before :)

Thanks for the links :)

[EDIT]
Well, my AC causes the air in the room to be continually refreshed, so that would definitely not work. All the air it heated would be constantly sent outdoors again so it would have to heat some more. (Of course, if I wanted guaranteed fresh air too and was happy to consume the extra energy, it might be nice.)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Timorg
Member #2,028
March 2002

AFAIK my Air-conditioner does this, I am pretty sure that's exactly what a reverse cycle AC does. :) (I have a kelvinator)

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lambik
Member #899
January 2001
avatar

Funnily enough, I recently heard of a trial project where they use heating as an AC by pumping cool instead of warm water through the radiators. Not such a bad idea if you think about it. The summers over here are getting hotter and instead of introducing a new system for cooling, we could just adapt one that already exists in 90% of the houses.

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