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Chrysler's view on Global Warming..
HardTranceFan
Member #7,317
June 2006
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We have the curly ones throughout our house - my brother-in-law imports and distributes them through NZ.

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"Shame your mind don't shine like your possessions do" - Faithless (I want more part 1)

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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I'm doing my bit. I only have a single 80W lightbulb in my flat. Though, that's not so much due to trying to save on electricity but because the wiring in my flat is screwed and except for the bulb I have now, every lightbulb I use blows within a few days, so I stopped buying them.

HardTranceFan
Member #7,317
June 2006
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Is the landlord receptive to a wiring fix? It should fall under house maintenance, after all.

--
"Shame your mind don't shine like your possessions do" - Faithless (I want more part 1)

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Quote:

Is the landlord receptive to a wiring fix? It should fall under house maintenance, after all.

The landlord (the city council) has sent three electricians to fix the problem. They've all said theres nothing wrong. One of them said it was possible the problem was from the antiquated powerlines in my neighbourhood, but I've only ever had problems with lightbulbs.

And by problems I don't just mean the filaments blowing. The bulb in the kitchen has twice exploded (ie. there was glass all over the place). On both occasions, the metal cap on the end of the bulb melted and fused with the socket, requiring a new socket to be wired in.

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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So your claiming more perfect knowledge AND denying that you should be required to make better arguments because of.... osmosis? Association with 'really' smart guys?

No, just pointing out that having actually talked to people who work on weather patters and the climate has changed my point of view. That, and I find the accusation "scientists just do crap research for funds" to be personally offensive.
I know it happens, but here you're using it as an argument to dismiss an entire field of research that I think you don't want to be true.

As for better arguments, I'll repeat those I've already given. I haven't seen people raise sensible arguments against them.
1. The mean temperature on Earth has been increasing systematically over the past few decades, breaking sharply with the trend of the past few centuries.
2. Related, weather patterns have been changing at the same time. Weather patterns have changed in recorded history, but not on such a short timescale. Suggesting a different mechanism.
3. Human activity has released large quantities of CO2 in the atmosphere; CO2 is a well-known "greenhouse" gas. This doesn't prove anything, but it is suggestive, and it most certainly isn't helping.
4. Heating up the Earth melts ice and increases the sea level because the ocean heats up along with it. This has been measured; satelite images show that the ice sheet on Greenland is sliding.

Is it tentative? Yes, but it is a consistent picture. Correlation does not imply causality, but it's worth thinking about it when you do see a correlation.

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The simple truth is long term climate change is completely unknown.

Yes. Then again, I don't care as much what the climate looks like a thousand years from now as I do what it looks like a few decades from now. Current weather models are getting accurate enough to predict trends on such a timescale. I wouldn't trust the pricise numbers that come out of such a calculation, but overall trends definately.

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Those who think human activety contribute to it may have a point. And they may not.

And may not is a justification for doing nothing to limit possible human intervention?

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What irks me is people who talk about things like the density of frozen and liquid water, present graphs of a tiny fraction of the planets meteorilogical history AND then claim to have enough understanding of this astoundingly complex system to make predictions.

There's a difference between quantitative and qualitative predictions. The arguments given there are qualitative; making them quantitative is a good deal more complicated and the outcome is very uncertain. But the qualitative behavior is quite clear and doesn't require complicated physics.

EDIT
Let me rephrase what I do and do not believe.
1. We are not going to have any long-term effect on life on Earth. Nothing we can do to it is worse than what nature has done to it over the past few hunderd million years.
2. Do we know what the climate will look like in a million years? Definately not; weather patterns are too chaotic. Will anything we do today affect what the world looks like a million years from now? I don't think so; to think otherwise seems to be arrogant presumption. No one cares about a million years from now anyway.
3. Given current trends (such as temperature increase), can we say something about what will happen in the next millenium? I don't know enough about these models to make an educated guess, but my gut feeling is "no". The next few decades? That I do believe - and the next few decades are what are most relevant to people living today.
4. Do we know that current trends will contine in the future? No, we don't. For one thing, if the energy output of the sun decreases a fraction, temperatures will drop because the sun is by far the most important energy source.
But we cannot control the energy output of the sun. On the other hand, we can control things like CO2 emission, which certainly do nothing to reduce climate change. If current trends are a natural phenomenon, nothing we do to reduce CO2 emission will affect them. If they are not natural, then we should try to do something, because the consequences (see 3) can be very bad.

HardTranceFan
Member #7,317
June 2006
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Quote:

The bulb in the kitchen has twice exploded (ie. there was glass all over the place).

OSH?

--
"Shame your mind don't shine like your possessions do" - Faithless (I want more part 1)

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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... one implies the other.

Yup, thank you.

Beyond that, I'm stepping out, this is turning into a bit of a flamewar. :P

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

TeamTerradactyl
Member #7,733
September 2006
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23yrold3yrold said:

Beyond that, I'm stepping out, this is turning into a bit of a flamewar. :P

Well, if you're all going to start flaming each other, I say that we start creating more volcanoes. Like, start digging into places that are sure to hit a lava pocket. Then, when it starts spewing all the stuff into the air, test to see if that volcano gives off any more nauseous chemicals/gasses. Then test if that affects our ozone as badly as humans. I think two dozen carefully-detonated volcanoes should tell us whether "the last million years" of "nature" causes more problems than the last few millenia of humans...

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Isn't there a "Super Volcano" somewhere that, when it erupts, will spew so much crap in the air that it will cover half the planet in a giant cloud of ash?

[edit]

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These eruptions left behind huge volcanic depressions called “calderas” and spread volcanic ash over large parts of North America (see map). If another large caldera-forming eruption were to occur at Yellowstone, its effects would be worldwide. Thick ash deposits would bury vast areas of the United States, and injection of huge volumes of volcanic gases into the atmosphere could drastically affect global climate. Fortunately, the Yellowstone volcanic system shows no signs that it is headed toward such an eruption in the near future. In fact, the probability of any such event occurring at Yellowstone within the next few thousand years is exceedingly low.

http://www.solcomhouse.com/yellowstone.htm

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Richard Phipps
Member #1,632
November 2001
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Quote:

Isn't there a "Super Volcano" somewhere that, when it erupts, will spew so much crap in the air that it will cover half the planet in a giant cloud of ash?

Hollywood?

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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See edit.
I heard about it from a coworker who saw it on the discovery channel.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Quote:

Isn't there a "Super Volcano" somewhere that, when it erupts, will spew so much crap in the air that it will cover half the planet in a giant cloud of ash?

Yup. It's called Yellowstone National Park.

EDIT: Geez... how did I miss your edit?

Richard Phipps
Member #1,632
November 2001
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Quote:

EDIT: Geez... how did I miss your edit?

Rage. ;)

CGamesPlay
Member #2,559
July 2002
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Quote:

Then test if that affects our ozone as badly as humans. I think two dozen carefully-detonated volcanoes should tell us whether "the last million years" of "nature" causes more problems than the last few millenia of humans...

TWELVE SIDED DIE'D

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Actually I bought them because they look cool. 8-)

I have that same lamp but not painted! I have 1 flourescent blub in there, but it burned out. I wish I had more, because they keep my room much cooler.

--
Tomasu: Every time you read this: hugging!

Ryan Patterson - <http://cgamesplay.com/>

nonnus29
Member #2,606
August 2002
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I'm afraid I have to agree with nonnus here.

Muhahahahaha.....

;D

amarillion
Member #940
January 2001
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Whether or not you believe the data regarding global warming, try watching a busy city intersection for a few minutes and think to yourself that this is just one of billions of such intersections in the world - each one packed with internal combustion powered vehicles.

Yes, this feeling strikes me often. And it scares the crap out of me.

Human population will reach 10 billion within our lifetime, and that is not even the worst problem. The majority of that 10 billion will be in 3rd world countries all aspiring to 1st world standards of living. And who can blame them? After all, 1st-worlders are definitely not considering giving up their affluent life styles. Think of the huge economic boom for example in China. A typical 1st-worlder has over 10 times more impact on the environment (in terms of waste production, non-renewable resource consumption, etc). Even if the population of China doesn't grow anymore, they will still keep getting a greater and greater impact on the environment.

The outcome of this will depend on the reaction of society to our problems. Awareness to environmental problems is increasing, but so is the scale of the problems. It's like an exponentially accelerating horse race with unknown outcome. But for sure, we, or at least our children, will see the finish, good or bad. Something has to give.

ImLeftFooted
Member #3,935
October 2003
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I don't really get why everyone cares. If I lived in Holland maybe... But me personally? meh.

Worst comes to worst I just move to somewhere that used to be really cold.

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Worst comes to worst I just move to somewhere that used to be really cold.

You and 5 billion others :)

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

Richard Phipps
Member #1,632
November 2001
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Oh Dustin? You aren't worried about tornadoes doing more and more damage to coastal cities and large parts of the south west becoming too hot and arid in the future?

Kauhiz
Member #4,798
July 2004

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You and 5 billion others

It'll be one big party! Yay!

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It's Ridge Racer! RIIIIIDGE RAAAAACER!

Richard Phipps
Member #1,632
November 2001
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I bags the beanbag in front of the Plasma TV and the case of bears!

CGamesPlay
Member #2,559
July 2002
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Oh Dustin? You aren't worried about tornadoes doing more and more damage to coastal cities and large parts of the south west becoming too hot and arid in the future?

Don't appeal to him. He's just playing the part of America.

--
Tomasu: Every time you read this: hugging!

Ryan Patterson - <http://cgamesplay.com/>

ImLeftFooted
Member #3,935
October 2003
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Nope, not worried in the slightest.

I'm more worried about real threats like bio-attacks, nukes, something creative a terrorist might come up with etc.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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This carbon dioxide stuff that's blamed for the greenhouse effect is the result of burning fossil fuels, so it was in the air at one time or another (for the plants & microorganisms to make body mass). No, wait, the whole planet was awfully warm then, sorry. That N.D. I spoke of was partially in the "Gulf" of "Mexico" at the time, now it's got a marker pointing out the center of the North American continent. 1500 miles/2400Km to the beach now.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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I'm more worried about real threats like bio-attacks, nukes, something creative a terrorist might come up with etc.

Real? Last time I checked those things aren't much of a concern to me personally. I'd say let the big guys play with their WMD toys, leaves more recources for us :)

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski



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