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Graphics Vs Gameplay
HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Xcom looked photorealistic to me when I first saw it around '97(it was the seckond game after WC2). Today I don't think it has that good visuals but I still think it has probably the best gameplay ever made and I still play it quite often.

SC has 640x480x8 and looks extreemly good considering that and also has great playability.
D3 looks pretty nice but I got bored after couple of hours playing it and never played it again.
FC looks pretty good and I have been playing it quite a bit lately.
HL2 looks great and I played it through once. Never looked back again. I've played through HL1 and its numerous addons about twenty times.
Space Empires 4 looks average but I've spent awfully lot of nights playing it.

For me graphics is pretty much irrevelant as long as the game has great gameplay.

In the other hand I know some people to whom I've shown Xcom and they said it looked so ugly they would never play it. The same people also don't play q3a, SC and some other great older games just because they dont have as good graphics as they would like.

On the whole if you want to target lots of people you will need good graphics and at least average gameplay. If you only have great gameplay but sucky graphics you will lose public but those who remain will probably play your game quite a lot.

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Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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There's a huge difference between "good graphics" and "hi-res". It is still very possible to produce crappy hi-res graphics, and they are generally even uglier than crappy lo-res graphics. Look at the extremes: a 2-color 16x16 sprite is pretty much always medium-crappy, but it won't get any worse. As you increase the resolution, you have more room to make good sprites, but the room for crap increases just as much. Since you have more choices to make, a bad artist will likely produce uglier graphics rather than better, while a good artists can use the tools and produce better art.
For indie 2d games, art production time and effort is a crucial factor, often making the difference in whether or not the game is ever finished. Producing hi-res art takes way more time, and even more to polish and get it right. A single developer can make a nice, polished 320x240x8 game with consistent art. Creating a full-blown 3D world that looks good in 1024x768x32 usually takes a dedicated artwork team.

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Kanzure
Member #3,669
July 2003
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Graphics and gameplay go together. Without the core, the apple would collapse. Without the skin, the apple would rot. They all make up the apple. Each game should have its own special leveling of graphics, gameplay, and story (best fitted for the game).

Krzysztof Kluczek
Member #4,191
January 2004
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Quote:

For indie 2d games, art production time and effort is a crucial factor, often making the difference in whether or not the game is ever finished. Producing hi-res art takes way more time, and even more to polish and get it right. A single developer can make a nice, polished 320x240x8 game with consistent art. Creating a full-blown 3D world that looks good in 1024x768x32 usually takes a dedicated artwork team.

My suggested solution: go for 3D! ;D

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Well I think that this discussion is irrelevant, as said above gfx and gameplay goes together. So that means it's game dependat if anyone will play it.

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Paul Pridham
Member #250
April 2000
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I'd have to say that graphical quality is not so much about the resolution, or even the amount of colours used, but is about the appropriateness and confidence of the images within their relative canvas. Ie. you can have low-colour, low res sprites... but if they have character, are anatomically appropriate, and the animation is convincing (whether high or low frame count), then there is really no reason not to accept these graphics.

Colour depth and resolution are merely the canvas the artist chooses to work with. You can have good or bad art within such a context, but judging all water-colour paintings as better than oil is only a subjective opinion.

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ngiacomelli
Member #5,114
October 2004

Quote:

I'd have to say that graphical quality is not so much about the resolution, or even the amount of colours used, but is about the appropriateness and confidence of the images within their relative canvas.

I'd agree with that. Look at Darwinia. The code was up to it, but out of the three people working on it - not one of them was an artist. Instead of settling for 'gameplay' over 'graphics'. They decided to let the code do the graphics. Fractal landscapes. One poly models. They chose a setting that fit with their storyline and made it work (really, really, made it work). It's probably one of the most beautiful games i've played in a long time.

Krzysztof Kluczek
Member #4,191
January 2004
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Quote:

but if they have character, are anatomically appropriate

I've never seen 16x16 pixels character that is anatomically appropriate. ;)

Trezker
Member #1,739
December 2001
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KK: You're thinking about correct, not appropriate.

Paul Pridham
Member #250
April 2000
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Trezker, yea. Basically, if a character isn't drawn convincingly, it will annoy the player. The anatomy can be all "wrong" as long as it's done this way consistently and with intent, and it will "gel". Otherwise, it's programmer art. :) And as was covered above, high-res 3D programmer art still sucks. :)

Goalie Ca
Member #2,579
July 2002
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Not polished is the big one. Polished graphics are far more important than how many shaders and polygons it uses. Super Mario for snes has good graphics IMO. Even super mario for the nes has good graphics. Pacman? Good graphics.

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gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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Darwinia is out? Guess I have to check it out then... Uplink was pretty amusing. :)

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Daniel McKinnon
Member #1,463
August 2001
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Lest we forget the other finer points of a game.

Music
Sound Effects
Overall Artistic Appeal
Cinimatics / Cutscenes / Storyboard
Gameplay
Level Design
Animation
Special Effects
User Interface and Control.

All very important. I'm sure I'm forgetting something or other.

I think if at bare minimum you put all of these together, you'll get a better game than one without all of said elements. Making games is definitely a broad artform that can take years and many projects to master. I reccomend looking at a book called "Game Design: Secret of the Sages II" to understand everything that goes into an excellent game from the perspective of the worlds best game developers.

Rick
Member #3,572
June 2003
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Quote:

1. Fenix Blade - 320x200x8.
2. Alex the Allegator 4 - Low res, something like 4 colors.
3. Operating Spacehog - 320x200x8 (IIRC).
4. XOP - 640x480x8 (again, IIRC).
5. Frenetic Plus - 320x200x8.

Look what we have to choose from. I think the fact that these are on top show the poor quality of graphics in games created with Allegro. Gameplay is fun, that I agree with, but I've played each of those games for about 10 mins. before I was turned off by the bad graphics.

I found something interesting a few days ago. My graphics card went to hell, so I put in my old one and fired up WoW. It looked horrible, and killed the gameplay for me. I then went out and got a new card, and it made all the difference.

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tobing
Member #5,213
November 2004
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So what does that mean? Adapted saying:

Nice graphics is not everything, but without nice graphics everything is nothing.

Trezker
Member #1,739
December 2001
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1. Fenix Blade - 320x200x8.
Looks wonderful in my eyes, I could stare at it for hours, no problem

2. Alex the Allegator 4 - Low res, something like 4 colors.
4 colors, all greenish, I love it. I've cloned a monochrome game you know, the best spaceshooter I've ever played, Monospace.

3. Operating Spacehog - 320x200x8 (IIRC).
This is a really beautiful game, the gfx kick ass. Hard as hell, if you can beat it I bet the fire button has melted in the end.

4. XOP - 640x480x8 (again, IIRC).
This one didn't stick in my memory...

5. Frenetic Plus - 320x200x8.
Beautiful and hard... I just can't get along without freedom of control, so that game falls on the gameplay for me, not the gfx.

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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I've played all except XOP:
1)Fenix Blade - very nice graphics, fun to play, reminds me Albion.
2)Alex the Allegator 4 - great idea make just 4color game. I love this one as well as Happyland Adv.
3)Operation Spacehog - not so frenetic but really good space shooter, graphics is nice and there's nothing better than joystick with turbofire.
5)Frenetic plus - I like the idea, graphics is also good, sometimes the controls sucked and it's really frenetic when you have few hps and two enemy waves in front of you.

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Sirocco
Member #88
April 2000
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Quote:

I think the fact that these are on top show the poor quality of graphics in games created with Allegro. Gameplay is fun, that I agree with, but I've played each of those games for about 10 mins. before I was turned off by the bad graphics.

The problem here is that no one can actually agree on what "good" graphics are. Hi-res, high color graphics are not always good, and low-res, low color graphics are not always bad... depending greatly on who you ask.

Looking at the five games listed, I'd venture to say that all of them have a level of graphic quality and style that eclipses 95% of all 16bit era games (Alex 4 beging a visible exception, but even then it looks better than 95% of all GameBoy games), which for their time were considered professional grade works. No one looks at games like Chrono Trigger, Valken Assault Suits, Super Metroid, or Earthworm Jim and professes that they suffer from poor graphics. Antiquated, perhaps... but not poor.

Considering that, I think it would be more fair to say the games suffer not from poor graphics, but a style that does not suit your tastes.

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ngiacomelli
Member #5,114
October 2004

Quote:

Darwinia is out? Guess I have to check it out then... Uplink was pretty amusing. :)

You'll love it. Great game.

Rick
Member #3,572
June 2003
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Quote:

1. Fenix Blade - 320x200x8.
Looks wonderful in my eyes, I could stare at it for hours, no problem

2. Alex the Allegator 4 - Low res, something like 4 colors.
4 colors, all greenish, I love it. I've cloned a monochrome game you know, the best spaceshooter I've ever played, Monospace.

3. Operating Spacehog - 320x200x8 (IIRC).
This is a really beautiful game, the gfx kick donkey Hard as hell, if you can beat it I bet the fire button has melted in the end.

4. XOP - 640x480x8 (again, IIRC).
This one didn't stick in my memory...

5. Frenetic Plus - 320x200x8.
Beautiful and hard... I just can't get along without freedom of control, so that game falls on the gameplay for me, not the gfx.

You were not meant to be critic then. The best question to ask is, would you pay money for any of them? I'd say most people here wouldn't. I know I wouldn't.

Quote:

4 colors, all greenish, I love it. I've cloned a monochrome game you know, the best spaceshooter I've ever played, Monospace.

This is the nostalgic factor. It clouds your judgment. This is why most people say these games created with Allegro are great games.

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X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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I would hardly pay money for any game. At any rate, the reason I wouldn't pay for the listed games is not because the graphics are not good enough.

I wouldn't pay for Frenetic because I don't like that style of play. I wouldn't pay for Spacehog because there are too many vanilla space shooters as it is. I wouldn't pay for Alex the Allegator because it's not particularly interesting. I wouldn't pay for Fenix Blade or XOP, because, well, I don't consider them particularly fun games.

At any rate, the halting factor is not the graphics...

Why can't you simply accept that some people like that fashion of graphics? Genuinely like them? Our tastes are not like yours.

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A J
Member #3,025
December 2002
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if i played a game that "felt" really nice, i would care if the graphics were a block for the head, block for torso, 2 blocks for legs.

if i wanted good graphics, i'd go see a hollywood film.

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Trezker
Member #1,739
December 2001
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I wouldn't mind paying a little donation to Chaos Funk...

Richard Phipps
Member #1,632
November 2001
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Trezker
Member #1,739
December 2001
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I would on the other hand not buy Sunny Ball for myself.
Maybe as a present for relatives of less significant age though.

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