I've tried my fair share of allegro games, and most are pretty awful, there are a few good games, but there are only a few.
Discuss.
]]>Allegro is a suitable API for amateurs. Amateur programmers make amateurish games. That's all there is to it.
]]>Most Allegro games are made by a single person, whereas the "really good" games are made by teams of dozens or hundreds.
]]>Most Allegro games are made by a single person, whereas the "really good" games are made by teams of dozens or hundreds.
I've seen really bad games made by groups of people.
]]>I've seen really bad games made by groups of people.
You've not seen any good ones?
Compared to almost any Allegro game, almost any commercial game is very good.
]]>If you are talking about the games in the depot then the answer is simple: there is no requisits, and no rules for games to be accepted, so every new crappy and unfinished prototype is hosted.
The real problem is that only ~99% of the depot is crap, so is fantastically hard to find the few good ones, for example the great Saucelifter
]]>I just watched a feature about Allegro on CNN. One theory is that most people spend more time discussing what to name a mascot than they do coding. Another theory is that graphics and music actually are a contributing factor to a game's coolness. And another theory is that we just plain out suck.
]]>I've played some good allegro games and some bad allegro games. I've also played some good commercial games and some bad commercial games. The question is if the proportionality between these sets is any different.
[edit]
If you ask me, for most, the greatest chance of having a good allegro game is when the developer thinks small and simple. That's why this community thrives on hack competitions. And for the love of Alex, when is the next Speedhack happening? Yes, I've seen the threads asking the same, but my patience evades me!
I've tried my fair share of allegro games, and most are pretty awful, there are a few good games, but there are only a few.
Discuss.
That's like expecting a builder's apprentice to build a perfect home first up, before he learns he tools of his trade. It takes time, and a lot will never fully master it.
Nearly all here who program games do so as a hobby. A vast number are just taking their first steps with coding a complete game, so it's an unrealistic expectation of the depot quality.
And another theory is that we just plain out suck.
And that's probably closer to the truth than many of us would like. So we'll continue to live in our pseudo fantasy worlds, aiming for utopia.
]]>Is it thursday already? I could have sworn we've had this discussion a few times before..
]]>Commercial games have budgets, and therefore they can hire real programmers. I've seen some pretty shitty real programmers, and some really great hobby ones; So again, the answer evades me, as obviously hobby programmers possess greater skill than real ones...
ML: That's possibly the funniest thing I've ever seen you write.
]]>I wonder how many good ideas and games (intended upon the use of allegro) sit on unnoticed shelves. I remember Sirocco posting a teaser about something a while back and never heard anything again. Maybe Wii need some Allegro Cheerleaders to go with our mascot.
&subliminal message
]]>I swear to God this is like the third time someone has posted this.
Then again, I doubt God really cares.
I've tried my fair share of allegro games, and most are pretty awful, there are a few good games, but there are only a few.
What about your games?
]]>i'm not a programmer anymore
]]>To make money with games it must be decent enough for publishers to accept it. That means most crappy games will never be accepted for publishing. Depot accepts anything that runs and looks like a game.
]]>
Quote:
Most Allegro games are made by a single person, whereas the "really good" games are made by teams of dozens or hundreds.
I've seen really bad games made by groups of people.
(A=>B) => (!B=>!A)
And not:
(A=>B) => (B=>A)
One theory is that most people spend more time discussing what to name a mascot than they do coding. Another theory is that graphics and music actually are a contributing factor to a game's coolness. And another theory is that we just plain out suck.
Theory One: Well that's just a fun side activity, isn't it?
Theory Two: I think that this theory is 100% true. If people want to get decent graphics and music, I think they should spend at least as much time on each as they spend on writing the code that drives the game. (Or at least try to team up with artists but the truth probably is that most of us are horrible team players.)
Theory Three: Yes, that or we just lack the freetime necessary to create a slightly-above-crappy game or we are just very lazy.
Commercial games have budgets, and therefore they can hire real programmers.
Aye, getting paid to do something can boost motivation.
So why are most allegro games bad?
Let's list all kinds of possible reasons(list doesn't claim to be complete):
lack of time on the developers side
lack of experience on the developers side
lack of dedication and motivation on the developers side
lack of clearly defined game concepts before starting development
lack of teamplaying capabilities on the developers side
lack of the will to spend a lot of time on creating amenable graphics and music on the developers side
lack of time to create amenable graphics and music on the developers side
your lack here
Conclusion: As can be seen by the points listed, it seems that the only problem is really the developers. So we should just get rid of the developers and suddenly lots of great games will come pouring in.:P
]]>Like I said... amateurs make amateurish games.
]]>Dennis's list made me depressed. I think every point in the list fits me.
I'm gonna quit coding now, kthnx
Seriously, that list is quite accurate IMHO and should only strive developers to overcome as much of the issues as possible. Of course, if you don't have time, you don't. But training makes perfect, or at least you get better.
As for the OP, I have to agree the posts above. Most of us who use allegro are unexperienced, alone and motivation is low.
I came to allegro.cc about a year and a half ago with a dream of redoing my space shooter game I did 1995 in QBasic, yes QBasic . I'm still working on it whenever I feel like it. During this time I've actually learned quite a bit about game coding, did a few smaller games and I believe I've become better. Thats for others to judge though
]]>Most Allegro games are bad for a multitude of reasons. Firstly, most amateur games are bad regarless of how they're implemented. Secondly, although Allegro is pleasingly simple for people who want to learn game programming, it is really awful for hardware utilisation so once people become reasonably proficient they tend to drift away to other solutions. There is also the limited audience and relative difficulty of deployment for any "native binary" game that tends to make stuff like Flash more attractive to most people doing free amateur games.
]]>99% of all indie games (regardless of platform) are trash. You have a few gems that shine every year, and the rest are not worth mentioning.
]]>
lack of time on the developers side
lack of experience on the developers side
lack of dedication and motivation on the developers side
lack of clearly defined game concepts before starting development
lack of teamplaying capabilities on the developers side
lack of the will to spend a lot of time on creating amenable graphics and music on the developers side
lack of time to create amenable graphics and music on the developers side
Why do many commercial games suck, in the order of the quote. I'm guessing here.
Yes, sometimes, yes, sometimes, no, no, no
Commercial games crank out lots of graphics. But how many of them care about gameplay at all?
]]>Commercial games crank out lots of graphics. But how many of them care about gameplay at all?
All the great ones
]]>Commercial games crank out lots of graphics. But how many of them care about gameplay at all?
The good thing (on the customer's side) is that every published game has to meet some quality standards. The average indie can release about anything, games with undocumented controls, unfinished stuff. Games that crash just before the end.
With a commercial game you buy the insurance that you will be able to play it from start to end. You are assured that the graphics meet the current standards. And that's the reason why you have to pay for it.
Nonetheless, as soon as a commercial game meets these standards, it is released. Even if it's completely stupid or boring or whatever.
To the OP: there are many good Allegro games. Like this one.
]]>Games that crash just before the end.
cough*Titan Quest*cough
If you're buying games for consoles without internet connection then commercial games hold a high standard of quality. But on platforms where you can patch, they expect you to accept a game that barely starts at all until they start cranking out patches.
Yep, there are lots of good and very good allegro games.
Not all of them are in the depot, though. You should take a look at the strings of indie games you like, to get an idea how they are made.
Anyway - you can code good game with allegro. Obviously you can code crap games with allegro.
Since creating good games is not easy, I am not surprised that the good games are the minority.
Perhaps Allegro could use an engine addon. Like plug and play game making.
]]>Nah, why?
TRhe problem is not that "allegro games" are bad. It's more that the stuff posted here isn't that great
It's not a problem of the lib, more of the a.cc community. Don't think that a game maker addon would help...
With a commercial game you buy the insurance that you will be able to play it from start to end. You are assured that the graphics meet the current standards. And that's the reason why you have to pay for it.
Nonetheless, as soon as a commercial game meets these standards, it is released. Even if it's completely stupid or boring or whatever.
Maybe on the dev box. Most games have random bugs and problems that need to be patched. The reason you are paying for it is so you can be somewhat sure it will be fixed.
]]>With a commercial game you buy the insurance that you will be able to play it from start to end. You are assured that the graphics meet the current standards. And that's the reason why you have to pay for it.
Nonetheless, as soon as a commercial game meets these standards, it is released. Even if it's completely stupid or boring or whatever.
When did you last play a game? 4 years ago? - -
Commercial games these days are so buggy you could think they had an competition about it. :/
To name a few:
Neverwinter Night 2
Gothic 3
The Guild 2
Age Of Empires 3
Two Worlds
Black And White 2
Titan Quest
]]>
I hear the new Halo will be made with Allegro.
]]>soon all new 2d alegro games will be better. after i finsh my MMRPG. my game will serve as a code reference. so you can understand and grab code from. The main advantages:
1. My game dose not have a pile of libraries that you have to compile or learn to use.
2. My game is a mmrpg so it contain all the aliments found in the smaller game and more. (its a one stop shop)
Note: later ill remake the game using 3d so it will teach 3d as well.
If you copy and pases code from my game you can make many good smaller games.
all you need is the ability to understand the code once you got that down you can even make it better.
I find that people under stand code better if they are able to complie it make changes and recompile. learn from hacking around in the code.
]]>When did you last play a game? 4 years ago? - -
Commercial games these days are so buggy you could think they had an competition about it. :/
What I explained was the concept of commercial games. Of course there have been many mistakes.
But, have you ever bought a game with unfinished graphics or no ending at all? A game without manual? I don't think so.
With a commercial game you buy the insurance that you will be able to play it from start to end.
To name a few:
Neverwinter Night 2
Gothic 3
The Guild 2
Age Of Empires 3
Two Worlds
Black And White 2
Titan Quest
Fable. Enough said.
]]>But, have you ever bought a game with no ending at all?
Did you buy KOTOR2?
]]>I played KOTOR2, but I never got near what I thought was the end because I had to return it to the friend I borrowed it from.
]]>soon all new 2d alegro games will be better. after i finsh my MMRPG. my game will serve as a code reference. so you can understand and grab code from.
What makes it better reference than the other games availiable in Depot?
]]>Eh? KOTOR2 even has different endings.
]]>What makes it better reference than the other games availiable in Depot?
Weren't we just discussing how crappy most of the Depot's games are?
]]>Piccolo's arrogance annoys me.
Weren't we just discussing how crappy most of the Depot's games are?
His game is no exception.
]]>The thing I have found with being a "solitary games programmer,
who insists on re-inventing every wheel, failing and reluctantly
adopting the open-source variants", is that it takes a very long
time....
For example I stopped coding in C, and using Allegro about 10yrs
ago, and have spent the intervening years learning 3D CGI, and
having finally "mastered" it, or rather reached a level of proficiency
that I am happy with, have returned to "coding/programming", so
I suspect in about another 10yrs I will be ready to start learning
the audio sides of things, so that this rate my first "decent
commercial-esque game" will be reading in about 2030.....
Of course it doesn't stop me having fun along the way, and sharing
the fruits of my labours whilst I perfect my "media" skills...
I have also found that it is like most things in life, you get out
what you put in..... And thankfully for me that is a hell of a lot
of enjoyment and pleasure.....
Yes, here in allegro community we code for the sake of coding. We care not for results, it's the challenges that matters. Once we see a clear path to a goal, we pick a new goal. What's the use of going for a goal when you already know the way.
]]>soon all new 2d alegro games will be better. after i finsh my MMRPG. my game will serve as a code reference. so you can understand and grab code from. The main advantages:
1. My game dose not have a pile of libraries that you have to compile or learn to use.
2. My game is a mmrpg so it contain all the aliments found in the smaller game and more. (its a one stop shop)
Note: later ill remake the game using 3d so it will teach 3d as well.
If you copy and pases code from my game you can make many good smaller games.
all you need is the ability to understand the code once you got that down you can even make it better.
I find that people under stand code better if they are able to complie it make changes and recompile. learn from hacking around in the code.
Oh I guess we just have to wait then I was afraid that you were not working on The Game anymore...
I've sigged that so that everybody is aware of your project and stop wasting time with their own (crappy) engines.
Pleeeaase tell me that was sarcasm.
]]>What makes it better reference than the other games availiable in Depot?
1.code inclued
2. code esaly complied (minimized of libraries focus on allgro)
3. MMrpg is one of the most complex games to make because it contain many if not all elimelement founld in diffrent types of games:
database, networking,advance data stuctors.
Piccolo's arrogance annoys me.
normaly i dont entertain these type of resposes. But maybe your miss interrupting my selfasteam for arrogance. plz re-read the post.
]]>But maybe your miss interrupting my selfasteam for arrogance
No, I'm interpreting your overbearing self-esteem as arrogance.
elimelement
How can you hit so many wrong keys?
]]>piccolo, I have two words for you... "Spell" and "Check". The button's there for a reason.
And here are some more words for you. Your game, no matter how good it eventually becomes, is not now and will not be the be-all and end-all of Allegro games. Even if it was the best game ever made with Allegro, it still wouldn't cover all the possibilities of Allegro games. Saying that people would be able to find examples of anything they wanted to do in the code of your game is not only stupid, but outright impossible. If your game has all that extra fluff then I don't want to play it. Tell me, for example, how it would teach me to make a Tetris clone, or a Minesweeper clone. Does it use real-time or turn-based battles? How would it show people how to do the other system? Say you use real-time battles and I want to do turn-based battles, then your game is no help to me.
So, in conclusion, I have two more words for you... "Shut" and "Up". Oh, wait, there's one more... "Please".
]]>1) source is included with most games, or at least with enough to get some help and ideas from them
2) probably it is just me but when I use premade libraries you can actually finish something. Building a whole pile of rectangular wheels takes a lot of time and effort you know It could also be because I have become lazy and want to finish stuff fast. I don't need to learn the basics any more, at least I don't think so. Also when I'm using some xml file as configure file I don't really care how exactly it works, all I need is the data in the xml file.
3) it is perhaps so complex that few people are able to learn from it since they have no idea where to start. I know that when I try to learn something new I start with simple stuff I can understand (hello world). Of course I move to a bit more complicated examples later but so far I have never tried to fully understand something bigger than a few kb's of code. Lots of code may scare people away.
Still I hope you finish your game one day
I know how much of an effort it is as I myself have failed to make one rather big project I started and ditched after writing ~10k lines/100kb of code from scratch.
Be nice to piccolo, The Game is the quintessential allegro game.
]]>
I'm not saying it won't be a great game, I'm just saying that everything can't be done in one game and still have a playable game.
]]>Be nice to piccolo, The Game is the quintessential allegro game.
I think that's being too generous to the bad Allegro games.
]]>And here are some more words for you. Your game, no matter how good it eventually becomes, is not now and will not be the be-all and end-all of Allegro games. Even if it was the best game ever made with Allegro, it still wouldn't cover all the possibilities of Allegro games. Saying that people would be able to find examples of anything they wanted to do in the code of your game is not only stupid, but outright impossible. If your game has all that extra fluff then I don't want to play it. Tell me, for example, how it would teach me to make a Tetris clone, or a Minesweeper clone. Does it use real-time or turn-based battles? How would it show people how to do the other system? Say you use real-time battles and I want to do turn-based battles, then your game is no help to me.
I strongly advice you to re-read his post. His game has everything, since it's a MMORPG.
]]>all this aggression looks like some one::) has sand in their vagina.
]]>As this thread seems like the general sort of
descent into a typical forum flame-war, I will
declare my neutrality at this point, although
I reserve the right to join the
"coalition of the winning side", at that moment
it becomes obvious whose talking sh*te, and who
ain't......
P.s. From experience Piccolo I wouldn't waste the
time responding to this thread. Devote all
your energies into making us "cynical" souls
astounded at "your game". It would be a wiser
devotion of your time and effort.
wise words master Yodhe23
]]>As this thread seems like the general sort of descent into a typical forum flame-war
I believe that would be my fault. I apologize and retract all my offensive statements (except for the ones that I meant. )
The thread can continue on in it's original direction.
]]>
As this thread seems like the general sort of
descent into a typical forum flame-war, I will
declare my neutrality at this point, although
I reserve the right to join the
"coalition of the winning side", at that moment
it becomes obvious whose talking sh*te, and who
ain't......
P.s. From experience Piccolo I won't waste the
time responding to this thread. Devote all
your energies into making us "cynical" souls
astounded at "your game". It would be a wiser
devotion of your time and effort.
it seems like you used a word processor to type this out.
]]>You've got a keen eye.
]]>IMO...
Artistic (graphic/foley/musician) talent is at a major deficit on Allegro.cc. Actually, there doesn't seem to be many artists interested in games anywhere...
The depot is too forgiving.
Allegro.cc is too encouraging of simple, poor-graphical quality games.
]]>
What's better? Having a community of people who make bad games, or having no community at all? There would be no reason to filter out the depot of bad games. Maybe games that indefinitely in development maybe, but if someone makes a game, they should be able to display it. The point of all this is to have fun. That's all. We don't need to make an impression or sell anything. So, maybe it is forgiving. Who cares.
]]>all this aggression
Was my post agressive also? I was just trying to be polite while saying that you shouldn't hope that your game would became a prime example of how to write games. Huge and complex things aren't all that good for learning stuff. If people would want to see a real game source they can always download older ID engines (Quake 3 is the latest opensource one) and there should be other types of game engines with full source availiable also.
If you code the game because you want to create a nice game then continue writing it. If you do it to make an example of it then I'd say don't bother, there are much better things on the net.
Though there is a middle path you could follow. Besides writing the game itself write a blog about writing the game. Fill it with tutorials about altorithms you use and why you made the decisions you made. That would be a great thing.
Just throwing huge pile of code at someone is not that great, even if the game and code itself are good.
]]>Was my post agressive also?
I think he was referring to Possumdude0's posts, and to a lesser extent my posts. (Mine weren't very aggressive, just truthful ...)
[edit]Actually, now that I think about it, you said "also" so that probably means you already know which posts he was referring to.
]]>I have to take back my first comments... I was speaking from what I think is the average person's view on games... Personally I like Allegro games as much or more than commercial ones, because
They're fun
There are lots of them
They're mostly free
I mean, I've bought 1 commercial game in the past... maybe ten years (except for old NES cartridges), and I only play that on a rare occasion. There's always something new and interesting to try on allegro.cc . Even if I only play it for an hour or two, that's probably all I'd play many commercial games too. Maybe I'm just past the years where I could play games all day. Only on a very rare occasion do I find a game and play it for more than an hour, but there are some here that I have.
]]>going to the 1st question... I have worked on the commercial industry, as programmer, in the 2006, and I can tell that for every game that went "gold" (published), there was a lot that were ditched because they were going anywhere...
what that means? commercial games can be very bad too, they just don't get released to the public eyes ; and they have vast resources to produce such crap sometimes...
they have vast resources to produce such crap sometimes...
Polished, quality crap.
]]>But maybe your miss interrupting my selfasteam for arrogance.
Self esteem is when you tell yourself how good you are. This is a good thing to have. Arrogance on the other hand is when you continually tell others how good you are, which is a bad thing.
And when there is zero evidence to back up the arrogant claims, it's called talking shit.
]]>Polished, quality crap.
Sometimes unpolished, low quality, crap. It depends on the people, the money, the time. I prefer commercial games by the bigger developers (Rockstar Games, VALVe, Atari, Square Enix, SCEA, etc.). You generally know which games are guaranteed to be good and previews and reviews allow you to see how the game looks, plays, etc.
]]>Personally I don't play games. I enjoy programing. If it had not been for allegro I would not have learned a damn thing about graphics or logic for that matter. As was already mentioned allegro is a stepping stone to other technologies and I accept it as that and more.
]]>
Dennis's list made me depressed. I think every point in the list fits me.
I'm gonna quit coding now, kthnx
Every point? Even the one saying "your lack here"?;D
Don't quit because of that, quit for a good reason: e.g. quit because you enjoy neither what you're doing nor the results that you get from it.
I'm going to say that if it weren't for allegro.cc, I probably wouldn't be near as good at programming as I am now. Just look at my 2004 and early 2005 posts.
At this rate, I could have a decent demo in a few months. Though, I wouldn't be able to put my current project in the Depot because it doesn't use Allegro.
Perhaps if Allegro 5 comes out...
]]>The problem is you are all too lazy. A lot of you are better designers, programmers or artists than myself, but you never finish anything of significance because you aren't dedicated.
Learn to be less lazy and better games will appear.
]]>Last time I checked, piccolo, your game was hardly playable and crashed randomly. Good luck with it though.
]]>But you see he never said at the current state. Obviously the in progress version doesn't have to be anything like the finished version!
]]>Polished, quality crap.
Hey, isn't that a Playstation 3? j/k
I'm going to say that if it weren't for allegro.cc, I probably wouldn't be near as good at programming as I am now. Just look at my 2004 and early 2005 posts.
I'm going to say that if it weren't for allegro.cc, I wouldn't have advanced my programming to where I'm at. I would have given up and.... wow I may have turned out normal.
]]>You all better listen to Richard, for he speaks the truth.
]]>He's also ridiculously oversimplified the situation. Plus, there are a lot of talentless hacks who won't produce anything of quality regardless of whether they spend a lot of time or not.
]]>He's also ridiculously oversimplified the situation.
And you didn't?
]]>Nope. The existence of a lot of talentless hacks is just a simple fact. What Phipps did was portray the issue as a simple "Learn to not be lazy", which is not a simple thing to do at all.
]]>I never said it was simple. I just pointed out what I see as being the problem.
]]>I was mainly referring to this and later instances of the same:
Allegro is a suitable API for amateurs. Amateur programmers make amateurish games. That's all there is to it.
Please note that I'm not disagreeing, but I'm saying it's simplifying things quite a bit.
I'm not convinced that talent can't be learned either.
]]>I'd like to say that people that don't finish games have simply not chosen to do so. Being lazy is apparently an activity which they think is a more valuable use of their time, including me. There are of course those who do other things than being lazy, and we cannot blame them for not wanting to make games badly enough.
Of the people that do finish games I'm sure some will evolve into great programmers. They have the ability to finish projects which is a talent in itself and a great motivation to keep working. If you keep finishing game after game you will develop the skills to make better games.
I think all the bad games in the depot are like the drawings of children, because the depot is like a playground of publishing. This is where people begin. Most will probably grow out of game-making and live ordinary lives, but some will keep on trying and eventually become the shining stars of the next generation of developers.
All good developers started as newbies, and allegro.cc is a playground for new generations.
]]>My problem of not finishing any big projets is that there are always bigger and much more interesting projects I want to do.
I stopped my X-com remake because I realized that plain 2D software Allegro couldn't do what I wanted and fully 3D world would have been needed. Unfortunately as I knew almost nothing about 3D programming I couldn't continue before I learnt something about it. I did quite a bit in the next few months but then I found out about ray tracing and now I'm just waiting for good enough HW to be availiable for it. RT would make my plans even simplier than HW accelerated 3D rasterizing
]]>Hey, isn't that a Playstation 3? j/k
A guy I work with made the same Wii > PS3 arguments back when they were released. He bought a Wii and loved it. About 3 months afterward he got tired of the Wiimote and sold everything for $300 (he also bought an extra controller, a ton of games, and maybe other peripherals... In other words, he lost money). I think he wants a PS3 now.
In response to the lazy arguments, I'm not really a lazy person. The reason I don't get projects far is because I'm not at all motivated to do art or sound. When I start trying to make stand-in media to use in place of real art/sound I quickly get discouraged (perfectionism doesn't allow for stand-ins) and move on to other things. I'm in need to a well balanced team.
I'd be playing basketball everyday if there wasn't a tent trailer on my basketball court...
]]>The reason why Allegro games are bad is because "good"(*) games involve lots of cash, lots of programmers, musics, artists, publishers, etc...
Imagine, I worked at a mobile game company, and usually a mobile game (2D, very old-skool) employed 5 to 10 programmers,a porting team, graphic designer, pixel artists, publisher team, a team of testers, etc...
In a single office there was at least 200 programmers working on the projects. And lots of artists, musics, translators, testers, etc...
Producing a commercial game is a effort that we, as hobbyist, can't afford.
(*)I put "good" because is relative, I have great fun playing abandonwarez and indie games, but I don't enjoy new titles that are pure 3D and no gameplay. Beauty is in the eye of the player...
]]>Some indie games are fun, but they'll never really stand beside games like the Grand Theft Auto series, Driver series, Final Fantasy series, US Navy Seals series, or Half-Life "trilogy". Not until a lot of people spend a lot of time making one, which is unlikely with no budget.
]]>X-G's first reply in this thread said:
Allegro is a suitable API for amateurs. Amateur programmers make amateurish games. That's all there is to it.
Simply said....
A bad workperson blames their tools.....
]]>The points made about lack of skill / motivation / dedication / commitment etc. have alredy been made so I won't repeat them.
Allegro when compared to other contemporary game-libraries has two main strengths
It's easy to use and is therefore attractive to beginners.
It's one of the few recently-maintained game-libraries that runs well on old hardware.
The first point means it attracts the sort of people who lack the things mentioned above.
When faced with a skills problem and lack of a source of quality assets (gfx and sound), the obvious solution is to lower the production values of the game. In order to compensate for lower production values, the developpers may try and lower the minimum hardware-spec for their game to run on. This ends up with the games being given a more 'retro' feel to them. Allegro works well on old hardware, but even so, the programmers must then do extra work in optimising their code to run at a decent speed.
Retro games can be both good and bad, but some people are only interested in modern games so will end up thinking that all retro games are awful regardless of how good they are to retro-game fans.
Although the majority of programmers here are doing it as a hobby and lack the commitment to not just finish their game but to polish it as well, a small number of us do end up working in the games-industry. But even those programmers who made it were themselves beginners at one stage, and among the sea of awful projects are some that are the first steps in the direction of a career as a professional game-programmer. Professional programmers may get paid for writing games full time, but hobbyists do it because they luv it!!!
And yes, there really are some great games made with Allegro.
AE.
]]>And yes, there really are some great games made with Allegro.
Yeah, Grabber and Font Editor are so much fun.
]]>To be clear, and I wish I had gotten back earlier so there would be so many post between this post and the ones I'm refering to, I wasn't say piccolo's game is bad, just that it didn't have "everything".
And the reason I never finish games is because I think of something cooler and better partway into a project and start all over. I'm also really lazy.
]]>Yeah, Grabber and Font Editor are so much fun.
You forgot the test program. I've literally played with it for several days. I even wanted to do a remake of it
]]>99% of all indie games (regardless of platform) are trash. You have a few gems that shine every year, and the rest are not worth mentioning.
This can be generalized to everything under the sun (as opposed to indie games, or even games in general). However, the usual ratio is 90%.
George W. Bush sucks (he watches too much TV, and gets ideas).
Capitalism sucks (Under capitalism, man exploits man, under communism it's exactly the opposite).
Hoover vacuums suck. I'll stop now.
]]>Let's create a thread to make a new Allegro demo! Oh, wait...
]]>I see someone's figured out Sturgeon's law.
]]>Is there 10% on the depot that's worth dying for?
]]>Let's create a thread to make a new Allegro demo! Oh, wait...
What if you do a leet filtration for who can participate this time?
]]>Let's create a thread to make a new Allegro demo! Oh, wait...
At least we actually did complete a new Allegro demo game. So we beat the usual internet programming forum obstacle of actually getting something done, regardless of Allegro's development paralysis.
]]>It does not matter that most Allegro games are crap. We are here to have fun, learn stuff etc. If a good game comes out of this, then fine, but if it does not, it's not very important anyway.
]]>When people post games on the depot, they're not sure themselves whether their game is crap or not. Ask Johan Peitz if he knew Icy Tower was good when he posted it. Most people here seem to hold Icy Tower up as a good example of an Allegro game.
And there are always differences of opinion. I hate several commercial games that are quite popular here.
And if you don't like a game you download, just delete it. Not hard at all.
]]>Well, Johan Peitz is a god, so of course anything he makes is good.
]]>Icy Tower was the first game I played that was built with the Allegro library.
At the time I didn't even know what allegro was(it was a good 4 or 5 years ago now). Someone was playing the game beside me in a computer lab and it looked fun so I downloaded it for myself. I remember being impressed with being to completely customize your character with your own graphics.
Fenix Blade is another game which seems very well done to me.
It's been said before but my 2 cents:
I think the reason that a lot of allegro games aren't very good or polished is simply because alot of allegro members are either coders, artists, or musicians. Seldom is someone more than one of those, and very rarely is someone all three. That being said a typical project will require some form of collaboration which does not seem to work so well for some reason.
]]>Yeah, I started a turn-based strategy game last week, and now I don't think I'll ever get anything done on it, because I started an RPG last night. Why did I drop the strategy game? Because I'm a horrible artist. The quality is terrible, it takes me forever to get anything that even looks like it's supposed to, and I'm bored out of my mind the whole time I'm doing it. But I have no money (that isn't going towards college) so I can't hire an artist, and I don't know any artist that might help me out, except that one girl from school, but we get on each other's nerves too much to work together.
The only game I've ever really "finished", to a point that I would let others see it, is a Space Invader's clone in QBASIC. The graphics were all text.
]]>Icy Tower was the first game I played that was built with the Allegro library.
Geez, that makes me feel old. I think mine was Mookie's Quest (at least, that was the game that made me google for Allegro, hitting the old depot and the announcement of the new depot here).
]]>here's a musical question.
why is it impossible that Allegro may share responsibility for the generally low quality of the games made with it?
maybe there is something missing from the situation?
could we analyze the situation? perhaps there are reasons. perhaps people are doing their best with what is given but there is not enough to take it to the level they'd like to be.
give a chef not enough ingredients and they can only make bad food. give a cook enough good ingredients and they can make bad food or good food but at least they have the chance to make good food.
if the goal is to make good games, doesn't it make more sense to be critical of the system, rather than setting the bar so high for people?
]]>No I'm pretty sure the fault does not lie with allegro. I think the guys that make the crappy games wouldn't have made anything better no matter how good the tools were. They're just newbies, or as in the case of hacks they just don't give a * about quality as long as there's a working game. Like when I threw up Spheres of Doom in a nights hacking. That's a bloody crappy game but it works perfectly and fulfilled my vision for that particular project.
]]>Maybe it's partly because everybody wastes their time in the off-topic section of this board instead of working on their games.:-X
Thinking about it, the only game I ever finished writing was before I joined here (also did not have internet access at home at that point in time).
]]>
I can't find the site that got me started with Allegro. It was a Windows game which, I believe, was loosely-based on Herzog Zwei. For some reason I think it had something to do with apple, or mapple, or something odd like that.
Maybe it's partly because everybody wastes their time in the off-topic section of this board instead of working on their games.:-X
You're like those guys on game forums that respond to threads titled "you know you've played too much X when you..." with "You post a reply to a thread titled 'you know you've played too much X when you...'"
]]>Allegro isn't at fault here. It's the programmers. An inexperienced carpenter isn't going to make the best house in town, no matter what tools he has. It's called learning, everyone has to do it before they get good at something. And practice. Many Allegro users are beginners at programming, just learning how things work. They won't get it right on the first try. But it isn't Allegro's fault, Allegro has all the tools needed to make quality games. I'm certainly not going to sit here and blame the library because I haven't made anything that wasn't crap, I know it's because I'm still learning, not because my tools suck.
]]>They're just newbies, or as in the case of hacks they just don't give a * about quality as long as there's a working game
That's funny, because I'm the exact opposite. I simply won't finish something unless it is something I can be proud of. So, instead of making crapping games, I don't make any games at all! Problem solved.
]]>I basically don't release any of my work unless it could be mistaken for a commercial SNES game. Granted that's a rather nebulous qualification, but there are certain standards that while difficult to list on paper are nonetheless tangible while playing a 16 bit era game.
I find it neither realistic or reasonble to hold anyone other than myself to that standard, so that's how it goes. Not everyone worships the fat pixels like I do.
When I review an Allegro project I take the entire game's presentation into account and I expect there to be a level of professionalism in the game's actual design. I'm not looking for eye candy or trivial features that may look good as a bullet point yet fail to enhance the overall experience. There are some beautiful games here that I'd rate poorly because the games themselves play like ass; conversely there are some graphically modest games that have excellent gameplay, and I'm not adverse to handing out high marks under those circumstances. Occasionally there are projects that look wonderful and play just as well... those are rare indeed.
]]>