My dad has been on "Lipitor" for probably close to 20 years. It brought his cholesterol from dangerous levels down to healthy levels. Last I checked, he remains on it to this day. Of course, when he was diagnosed with high cholesterol he was instructed by his doctor that he had to start eating healthier. He added a lot more dark green vegetables and more chicken to his (and my) diet. He was about my age now at the time.

Don't get me wrong. I agree that the pharmaceutical industry is out of control selling dangerous drugs without the slightest idea how it does or does not work. That said, doctors are pretty much our best hope. What we need is a more transparent process for drugs to be tested. I.e., Publish all studies publicly, reveal the recipe for the "drugs" publicly, and operate more like a free society than a fake "capitalistic" one where corporations get rich on the backs of poor and dying people.

To assert that "God" healed Neil because he prayed is ridiculous. Particularly given that he has shown zero evidence to support his claim. Anybody can say God did anything. Do you believe everything people say, Edgar? I've already broken down the various ways Neil could be wrong. The initial doctor could have fucked up the tests. The subsequent doctor could have fucked up the tests (or maybe, Neil knew better than the doctor and heard what he wanted to hear). Or maybe Neil changed his diet and was cured. Or maybe some other aspect of Neil's life changed and cured him. There are plenty of possible explanations for Neil's story that don't invoke God. Before I'll ever accept that "God" did it, I'd need hard evidence. Before I'd even consider it, I'd need to rule out every conceivable alternative explanation. Any sane person would.

The fact that Edgar pretty much contradicted Neil's stance by saying that modern medicine is helping to keep his mother healthy and he wouldn't risk it seems to completely negate his argument. Nobody is saying that Neil can't live however he wants. If he wants to disregard modern medicine entirely (instead of with a dose of healthy skepticism) and believe that a magician will save him he is free to do so. We'd miss your banter around here, but otherwise it's no skin off my nose if things don't work out. I only draw the line where you attempt to assert things that you cannot know.

Unless you'd like to enlighten us about how you met God in person and he explained the whole process to you directly?

Your idea of progress differs from mine. You need to learn that there are other opinions in this world and just because they differ from yours, doesn't make them wrong or dangerous.

I had type 2 diabetes, it wasn't misdiagnosed, my vision went from perfect, to crap in a few short years, followed by me going to the bathroom every 1/2 hour and a thirst that I couldn't quench... all symptoms of diabetes. At that time, didn't have a family doctor, I had not had one for over 10 years, but I got one just for this and was tested for diabetes. I was put on three medications, Januvia, Metphormin and Lipitor, for a total of four pills a day in 2012. From 2012 until 2015 I took them and my blood sugar swung up and down, I watched my diet etc... but I finally got fed up with taking pills and felt that I wanted to explore having more faith in God to heal me. So I prayed about it for several months and around August of 2015, for some strange reason, the pharmacy refused to refill my medications. My wife had called, then I called... and I took that as a sign, so I went off of them and went on faith. I didn't tell my doctor I went off of them, but waited for about 5 months until my next appointment, and I waited for my next blood test (diabetics get that regularly to test their blood sugars). Well, my blood sugar level was the same as if I was on the meds, except I hadn't taken any meds for many months! My doctor flipped out at me, but I refused to take any. 6 months later, I had another appointment and my sugar levels were still the same. That was two years ago and I am still fine and I haven't been back to see him.

I had some other problems come up. One I had twice before, a strange leg infection that the hospital told me they knew very little about. It caused my temperature to rise to 105, dangerous levels! I was hospitalized for over a week on meds for it in the past. Well, it flared up again, only this time I refused to go to the hospital. I laid in bed burning up, it felt like my entire body was on fire, my wife was worried sick and wanted me to go to the hospital, I refused. I refused to take any meds, but just suffered in bed all night long, just praying. By the next morning, I was perfectly fine.

I have had it flare up twice more since then, each time it has not been as severe as the last and has cleared up faster each time. And each time I pray, and each time I take zero meds for it.

I had what is called an ophthalmic migraines (and I may have spelled that wrong). It's not a pain, but rather it is a distortion in your vision which starts out as a small fuzzy spot which grows in the form of a letter C style shape. It grows in size until it fills my vision and eventually goes outside of my outer field of view and vanishes. It always lasts 1/2 hour and I usually just have to sit out and wait for it. It NEVER goes away until it has completed this cycle. Well, after being healed for diabetes and my leg infections, I decided one time when I seen the spot starting up to pray about it, and as soon as I got done praying it vanished, which it has never done before.

I had several of my online financial accounts hacked and was under extreme stress, I was literally shaking on the inside and a nervous wreck, I decided to drop everything and pray. As soon as I was done praying, I felt a wave of calm which washed over me I could literally feel. My nervousness went away and I felt like I was on cloud nine, in a great mood. I made some phone calls and got in touch with the best people I could imagine who cleared up the problems right away. I remained in this strange euphoric state for several days. I'll never forget that, and nobody can tell me it wasn't anything but a direct intervention from God. If you felt what I did, you would know.

Even my marriage was effected by God! When I first asked my wife to marry her, she said no! (imagine that?! ) So I prayed about it (this was in 1984), because I didn't want to lose her as a friend. Well, a month after I prayed, she suddenly had a change of heart and came back and asked ME to marry her. The first place we moved into together was a dive, but there was a brand new, zipper bound, leather BIBLE in the apartment. And I didn't own a Bible at that point.

I could list even more things that have happened, the many times we were broke and out of food and I prayed and suddenly we received enough money to help us... many more stories.

So you'll forgive me if I refuse to back down on my belief in God! I KNOW He exists, He has answered my prayers, whether you like it or not. What is dangerous is not believing in God, it is a lack of belief in Him and mocking Him. You will laugh at this now, but someday you will be standing before Him and the smile will vanish from your face if you do not change your rebellious attitude. I do not wish anything bad on you and in fact, I have also prayed for the mockers and haters in here who laugh at the idea of God, because I don't want them to suffer. I would rather they see the truth and change, before it is too late. Then maybe someday we can laugh about all of this.

I have all the evidence I need. When I pray for help, and get it, answered prayer is the best evidence I can think of and I will never turn my back on the Almighty for anyone. Even if faced with death for it.

I don't mean to preach a sermon, but all I started out in here was mentioning how I dealt with my health with regard to the conversation about health care. Remember, you attacked me. Not the other way around... and I am dangerous... I didn't attack anyone, but I was attacked, so who is dangerous?

There is absolutely NOTHING I can say that will ever convince you, so I won't bother trying. I'll let you meet God in person and argue with Him, see how far that gets you. I know what happened to me. I know my prayers were answered, and I didn't lie about anything above. It all happened just as I said it did. And you will NEVER believe it until it is too late, which is sad honestly. The only one who will lose in the end is YOU. You lose out on the many blessings you can get from obeying and believing God. You lose out on eternal life as well. I mean, I was healed of a disease most people live their life with that only gets worse! If that doesn't convince you, nothing ever will. I feel sorry for you. I would rather see you do well and not be destroyed, but I also know that unless you have a love of the truth and lose their hatred of God, that will not happen. I have prayed for you specifically anyhow... one never knows.

The problem with this is that you're cherry-picking. If your prayer is "answered" then God did it. If your prayer is not answered (which statistically happens much more often) then God works in mysterious ways. It's not that there isn't a God. That couldn't be it. He just didn't want to do what you prayed for.

This can become dangerous when people commit evil acts and recognize the same "signs from God" to tell them that they have his support. It's a delusion. Your delusions may well be productive and helpful, but not all delusions are, and the same flawed logic and arguments are responsible for both kinds of delusion.

I have no problem with you believing that God answered your prayers. Maybe he did. I don't know. Nobody can know. It's far more likely that you believe so strongly that you delude yourself. Which is fine by me too. It's your life. It's your mental health. As long as you keep it to yourself you aren't doing any harm. But the more you try to spread the delusions to other people the more dangerous they become.

Even a slight change in language and tone would probably shut me up. Instead of saying God healed you after you prayed to him, you could say you believe he healed you after you prayed to him. One is an assertion of truth without evidence, while the other is simply a statement of your beliefs and faith. One can and should be defeated, while the other cannot or at least need not be.

Also, with regards to you being "dangerous" we already know the potential is there. You've told us the story where a doctor said something to your wife that you didn't like, and you freaked out and punched the doctor or something. I'm assuming it was something doctor-y, like "please lift your shirt," not something rude like "nice tits".

As long as life is relatively under control your delusions may only serve to give you peace or a sense of being, but if your life takes an unfortunate direction (e.g., you lose somebody dear to you) those same delusions may lead you to do harm. You may convince yourself that God wants you to do it. It can be very dangerous to think like this. That happens all the time.

Maybe so, but I have a secret to tell you.

You know it's definitely true because I said it right there. I would know I'm God because I'm God.

Hey bambams, guess what. False prophets don't do so well. Thou shalt not bear false witness.

Vengeance is the LORD's. Don't think he won't take it.

Clearly, you have neither.

tl;dr;

Neil said he was healed by God through prayer. bamccaig and various others called him delusional yet again. I chose to fight back.

We all agree, everyone else is stupid.

Now back to Facebook being the devil.

Unfortunately, it started in the universities, and spread from there... It's very scary indeed.

Don't worry about Dizzy, he's just a little hard-boiled