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Can some English speaker help me understand this? |
Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
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Just to make things a bit clearer... "you may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb"
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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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piccolo is a time traveler, so his English actually comes from different time periods. As such, I wouldn't rely on his English degree to help with modern day English. This here is just an inversion of "wanted for was". All I really wanted for (dramatic pause) was him to love me. All I really longed for (dramatic pause) was him to love me. But we wouldn't say "longed was for," so be confused, because it is just an arbitrary grammatical thing. Phrasing like "I want for nothing" (i.e., I am content) has gone out of style, but that perverse inversion remains. |
Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001
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Matthew Leverton said: piccolo is a time traveler We all know he comes from the future. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest. |
type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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Now encountered a phrase(rather recalled & used), "there is only so much I can do". I do very well understand what does it mean, I'm clueless how to translate it to Russian though. Now I'm unsure I can break it down grammatically, so I'm as clueless about the grammar of phrase the about my doings as I am about her love towards him. Johan Halmén said: If #4 lacks logical attachment, then #2 does it, too. Then #2 requires the "for" as well. I guess #4, compared to #2, just makes it a bit more difficult to follow the completely logical grammatical logic. To me, adding the "for" completely destroys the logic. Wonderful. So no logic. In other words, I should remember it as is without trying to understand it? I guess I did this with the "there is only so much..", so I can do this for his love towards her as well I guess, if this is all she ever wanted.. Bruce Perry said: "I had better do it"
No. & Googling it sends me to Chinese stuff.. Now the Egg literally scares me. I don't even know if I understood his sentence. Here's my understanding of the lambs & the sheep: Uhm. No. I'm clueless I totally understand every single words, but not all of'em together. I'll end up stopping eating eggs. They speak English I do not understand. *** Alright. I think ML perhaps actually gets me to the understanding of it. We can want for something. I wonder if I can want for a new computer. Perhaps I can't, but probably I could in the times before Shakespeare. Well, if there were computers back then. Now it about love just decided this old phrasing outlives Shakespeare?
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Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
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Back in the good old days in England if you were caught stealing sheep you were hung by a rope, and you would also be hung for stealing a lamb....so....
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Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003
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Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000
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type568 said: Now encountered a phrase(rather recalled & used), "there is only so much I can do". I do very well understand what does it mean, I'm clueless how to translate it to Russian though. Now I'm unsure I can break it down grammatically, so I'm as clueless about the grammar of phrase the about my doings as I am about her love towards him. Maybe this sequence of rewritings will help - each one largely keeps the meaning the same while removing the possibly confusing constructions, although it definitely sounds weirder with each step: "There is only so much I can do." (original) In fairness, most people (me included) just learn things by example. Some of us do spot patterns and know how to make more complicated constructions using them, but it still takes further thought to work out what the rules are. Quote: Wonderful. So no logic. In other words, I should remember it as is without trying to understand it? No, Johan's examples are invalid because "him to love me" is not a part of the sentence that can be isolated the way "a cat" is. It's like taking the expression "a*b + c" and trying to say it contains "b + c". I've addressed this in detail: Bruce Perry said: I would say that "I want him to love me" uses a specific construction of the form "want X to Y". The "X to Y" cannot be isolated and treated as a noun phrase. On the other hand, perhaps "for him to love me" is a noun phrase - I can provide another example which works, which is "For him to love me would be the best thing that has ever happened." So when you switch to a different construction, "All I ever wanted was", and you need a noun, then this is what you do. With that addressed, the logic should be completely consistent type568 said: Alright. I think ML perhaps actually gets me to the understanding of it. We can want for something. No. I think ML is trolling, and trolling hard. The original line is definitely not an example of "to want for" meaning "to lack". It is an example of "to want" meaning "to desire". Trust me, I'm a doctor On the other hand, I didn't know the sheep and lamb expression but it should be "hanged" for executions ("hung" for other things like towels)! -- |
bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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This thread made me think of this song, though I guess it doesn't really help: Append: Gideon Weems said: I am not convinced that omitting the "for" results in an unnaturally sounding sentence. Rather, it merely results in a different nuance. Either is fine. ^ This. The original sentence/phrase would be fine without the help. It just changes the nuance. It reads a little bit more proper with the help, which means that native speakers are probably more likely not to use it in informal conversation and writing. It's optional. Append: An off-topic observation that might belong in another active thread could be made:
In the former case, it's all about the woman. In the latter case, it's still all about the woman. Worth noting. -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000
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At least boys ask "How do I get her to like me?" You could also argue that the woman is just a bit more realistic: she respects the fact that a relationship can only happen if he wants it. She is actually respecting his agency - who would have thought? (Whereas the man just thinks about what he wants.) Anyway, I have to say I need the "for", I don't think it sounds right without, and I don't think it sounds 'excessively proper' (pompous or whatever) with. Perhaps different countries have developed different nuances. [EDIT] Here's my antidote: Apparently the YouTube Flash API is officially deprecated. Matthew might need to do something -- |
piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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"There is only so much I can do." (original) Edit the English langue is probably way AIs are not as advance to day as they should be. the poor AIs get confused and stuck in an infinite loop. wow |
Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Dizzy Egg said: Back in the good old days in England if you were caught stealing sheep you were hung by a rope, and you would also be hung for stealing a lamb....so.... I thought it was supposed to be a lamb vs. a loaf of bread, much greater disparity in value. They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas. |
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