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Say goodbye to Reddit! Allegro will be full of people soon!
Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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http://www.redditblog.com/2015/05/promote-ideas-protect-people.html

Quote:

Instead of promoting free expression of ideas, we are seeing our open policies stifling free expression; people avoid participating for fear of their personal and family safety. Last month, we conducted a survey of over 15,000 redditors—these are people who are part of the reddit community—that showed negative responses to comments have made people uncomfortable contributing or even recommending reddit to others. The number one reason redditors do not recommend the site—even though they use it themselves—is because they want to avoid exposing friends to hate and offensive content.

Negative responses are harassment now!

Quote:

One of our basic rules is “Keep everyone safe”. Being safe from threat enables people to express very personal views and experiences—and to help inform and change other people’s views:

Ironically the very thread they cite is actually full of top-comments explaining her differences (helping people learn from each other), and also rebuking the OP for posting it.

So here's the problem: Who gets to decide what's offensive? Who gets to decide what's harassment? Ellen Pao, their CEO, is a noted hardcore feminist who has removed things like negotiating your salary at Reddit because "women don't do as well in negotiations." That's right, you're not allowed to ask for a raise because then you'd be making more than a woman.

Reddit's user comments to it are pretty hilarious:

http://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/35ym8t/promote_ideas_protect_people/

Quote:

Based on your own data, 35% of the complaints from extremely dissatisfied users were about heavy handed moderation and censorship[1]
What is being done about that?

[No reply.]

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

I never found Reddit very user friendly. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I can't even tell if there's a way to identify new posts since last visit, they're always all displayed the exact same whether they're new or not. Makes it more work than it's worth.

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Negative responses are harassment now!

I would put less stock on a possibly careless choice of words in a single sentence ("negative responses" could have been an attempt to say "personal attacks" or some such) - and more stock on the statement that a survey showed people are uncomfortable with this. If a majority of people feel a problem, then there's probably something in it.

Of course I'm assuming it is actually a majority and they haven't spun the facts to further an agenda. But hey, it's only Reddit, and see below.

Quote:

Ironically the very thread they cite

Do you mean the Balpreet Kaur one?

Quote:

explaining her differences

Whose differences, and from what?

Quote:

rebuking the OP for posting it

Who's the OP? Do they deserve rebuking?

Quote:

Who gets to decide what's offensive? Who gets to decide what's harassment?

As always, that's down to whoever owns Reddit, or whoever they've appointed as executives for Reddit. That's not to say those people won't respond to public pressure.

Quote:

Ellen Pao, their CEO, is a noted hardcore feminist who has removed things like negotiating your salary at Reddit because "women don't do as well in negotiations." That's right, you're not allowed to ask for a raise because then you'd be making more than a woman.

That is unfortunate. However, if you look at feminist and anti-feminist videos on YouTube (for instance), the proportions of likes and dislikes make it clear that the world at large does not buy all the rubbish. :)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Raynebc: The Reddit Enhancement Suite makes things a little better.

I don't foresee this change affecting my Reddit experience in a negative way at all. There is a ton of negativity in the comments on Reddit, and I think it would be nice to clean it up.

Mind you, the subs I actually care about don't really get much negativity to begin with, so I doubt they'll change in any way.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

Fark had a similar falling out with its user base. The world moves on, because at the end of the day, conversations with strangers about cats and Floridian Walmart shoppers do not matter.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

Do you mean the Balpreet Kaur one?

Yeah, that thread is full of comments either from her explaining (which means everyone gets to learn about another culture), or from people throwing a fit that it was submitted to /r/funny. Everyone is upvoting all of her, and the sane, informative posts!

So in otherwords, it's not harassment at all (you're in public, you have no expectation of privacy).

And this is from a "default" bottom-of-the-barrel subreddit!

These are the posts Reddit now wants to censor! The ones where someone actually thinks something condescending or confusing, and gets smacked in the face with truth, education, and cultural understanding.

Because in their hipster puritan views, merely noticing someone is different is the same thing as racism. Their solution to misunderstanding and differences is to act like they don't exist.

[edit] I forgot to mention! I've been on Reddit for over five years. I never got asked to answer a "survey". A mysterious survey that everyone is calling B.S. on that only asked 15,000 people out of the millions that use Reddit. By their own statistics, they had 170 million unique visitors last month alone, with 4 million logged in!

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

Ellen Pao, their CEO, is a noted hardcore feminist who has removed things like negotiating your salary at Reddit because "women don't do as well in negotiations." That's right, you're not allowed to ask for a raise because then you'd be making more than a woman.

That's one of the many reasons why I have learned to love our fearless supreme loser.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not against feminism (1st and 2nd gen, specifically), nor the free expression of ideas. I'm actually for allowing feminists to have their unique subreddits and discuss their ideas in a safe, free, forum.

Reddit didn't like that idea. Ellen Pao forced /r/twoxchromosomes (the feminist subreddit) to be a default subreddit. What they intended was feminism being forced into the front page so everyone can "learn" from modern feminism. What actually happened was they ruined a safe place for women to discuss feminism by flooding it with every new subscriber. Imagine a conservative subreddit forced to take in every young teenage liberal. It would be impossible to keep the signal-to-noise ratio up.

Meanwhile, Slashdot (now owned by a feminist company) is now ramming hit-piece after hit-piece against men saying "How can we stop this boys club in STEM?" and their usership is pretty fed up with it. They never cite statistics, they just assume there's a problem.

I mean honestly, when you were a kid in science/videogames, what did you want MOST? GIRLS. We were the outcast nerds who wanted the girls to like us. Now, somehow, after being bullied our whole lives for liking computers, we're somehow the BAD GUYS excluding the very thing we wanted? It's such a damn fabrication.

My wife can see straight through their lies, and so can plenty of women. But the vocal minority of women online, and therefor the media, is completely blind.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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What is reddit? Never been there.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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^ This.

But the vocal minority of women online, and therefor the media, is completely blind delusional.

FTFY. Sort of. I'm not sure if "vocal minority of women online" is worded properly, but I think I understand what you meant anyway. Of course, it's not just women. The "majority of vocal men online and in the media" are also delusional about equality issues. You don't have to be smart to be popular. In fact, it's much more effective to be stupid and pretty. Or at least target the majority of the audience. Take a look at day-time TV sometime... That's just spilling onto the Internet trying to capture that segment of the market...

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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bamccaig said:

Of course, it's not just women.

Yeah, but it's funny that less than 25% (*) of Americans identify as "feminist". You certainly wouldn't think that from the amount of television and internet exposure they get. That's because they always go for the highest profile, celebrities, companies and distribution channels. They're the Scientology of civil rights movements.

(*) source
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/16/feminism-poll_n_3094917.html

Meanwhile, almost everyone believes in actual equality.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Paul whoknows
Member #5,081
September 2004
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What the heck is reddit? ???

____

"The unlimited potential has been replaced by the concrete reality of what I programmed today." - Jordan Mechner.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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An unqualified "equality" is a vague idea. Feminists will tell you that is what they seek. I think that most intelligent people would agree with fairness. What's important is that all people are treated fairly. It's quite difficult to define exactly what that is, but I think it all stems from individual freedom. The Feminist movement mostly works to shift freedoms from men to women. It isn't actually respecting everybody's freedoms. It is working entirely to grant women absolute freedom at the expense of mens' freedom (because they necessarily relate).

They assert that women should have absolute freedom with regards to sexual activity. That women can choose to have sex, to not have sex, and whether the sex that they had was rape or not. They can choose to keep a baby, to abort it, and to give it away. They can choose to work or to not work.

Men are generally at the mercy of women and society. Do they get to have sex, do they have to settle for masturbating, and are they going to face social exile and potential prison time afterward? Are they going to be forced to provide for a mother and child, or have their potential offspring terminated, or have their offspring given away? Will they get to spend their earnings the way that they see fit or will they be forcibly taken to provide for others?

The reality is that freedoms carry with them responsibilities.

If you choose to have heterosexual sex then there is a chance, no matter what measures you take to guard against it, that you could cause a pregnancy. That has a direct impact on the freedoms of two people minimum. Universal "fairness" is impossible. A compromise must be chosen.

If you choose to ingest mind-altering poisons then your judgment may be impaired. You may regret the decisions that you make and the actions that you take, and they may not seem like your own, but you are still responsible for them, at least partly. Nobody else can be responsible for judging your level of impairment or your capacity to make decisions for yourself.

I don't think that any reasonable person would argue with fairness. The problem is that political movements are not fighting for fairness. The rich are exploiting the differences among genders to further exploit the lower classes to secure their own reign.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Quote:

What the heck is reddit? ???

I would describe it as an extreme left user generated feed aggregator with a primarily teen to young adult demographic (although not exclusively by any means). Pro-Kittens. Pro-Bacon. Pro-Wikileaks. That sort of thing. Very similar to Digg.

Great time waster, but can be used productively as well. Here is the top post at present: http://m.imgur.com/a/Ms0DS

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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I miss the days men wore suits everywhere--including flying. People had a much higher assumption of respect for each other back in those days. You catcall someones wife, and their husband knocks you out--the police come and say "What did you expect to happen?"

I'm assuming those suits were somehow comfortable though. Because all of mine are uncomfortable and hot as an oven to wear.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

relpatseht
Member #5,034
September 2004
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I wear suits almost exclusively. You need to get one which fits properly (you may want to find a tailor) and is made of cotton.

Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

The great thing about suits is that anyone can look good in one, you just need one that fits right (like relpatseht says). While certainly not perfect, suits act like equalizers of looks. Heck, that's their primary function, when you get down to it.

Ben Delacob
Member #6,141
August 2005
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When you define "feminism" as everything being unfair for the benefit of women, that tends to be the only side you will see it (basically by definition*). The same is true for those who define it as only fairness. If you have a problem with something someone says, try to just point out what exactly isn't fair and why. Unless it can't be avoided, leave off the useless labels and you don't get the polarizing war, just sense.

As for the reddit sub-forums, the political ones I've seen are often just filled with unnecessary bashing of "the other side". I think the greatest change would be to have the moderators encouraged to, err, discourage comments that do nothing other than group any opposing thought into a single big barrel of wrong.

* Okay, it is a terrible term for "fairness", for an obvious linguistic reason.

__________________________________
Allegro html mockup code thread -website-
"two to the fighting eighth power"

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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When you define "feminism" as everything being unfair for the benefit of women

I define feminism as 3rd-wave feminism's own, clearly stated goals of "social justice" and their tactics of attacking and shaming anyone who disagrees--something 1st and 2nd wave feminists are absolutely against.

I do not support any faction that bullies innocent people.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/space/11231320/Rosetta-mission-scientist-Dr-Matt-Taylor-cries-during-apology-over-offensive-shirt.html

It doesn't matter what gender, race, religion or political allegiance you have. You don't get my support if you believe it's okay to hurt innocent people.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

You forgot to mention sexual orientation. That social justice camp has been out for blood on occasion, ruining peoples' lives to make examples of them.

Ben Delacob
Member #6,141
August 2005
avatar

I define feminism as 3rd-wave feminism's own, clearly stated goals of "social justice"

Wikipedia seems to show little clear definition of "third-wave feminism", other than being after the second.

That #shirtstorm was certainly overblown. Twitter can be such an instant mob machine. Sometimes literally. Edit: Not that it was only Twitter.

__________________________________
Allegro html mockup code thread -website-
"two to the fighting eighth power"

Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

Any advice for a reddit newb?

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Any advice for a reddit newb?

If you like posting comments, stay FAR away from the default subreddits (reddit jargon for all posts regarding a specific topic with their own volunteer moderators). They're very volatile and go through fast cyclic periods of growth of quality subreddits, and subsequent noise from toxic users as they become "popular". Once a subreddit becomes popular, it decays and people who like quality move to new ones. Then those new ones become popular and the cycle repeats.

Honestly, I can't recommend posting at all. Reddit functions well as a kind of read-only, laugh-at-them way. But the second you start posting, you'll be censored pretty quickly if you have a differing opinion.

I cannot count the amount of outright dangerous comments that have been top rated, regarding personal health, electronics, welding, law and more. In otherwords, it's a great 2nd or 3rd level source. But never take their words without fact-checking them.

As for posting the actual submissions? Good luck. It's a huge popularity contest with large amounts of corporate shilling, so most of your posts will never even be seen by anyone.

That being said, it's still one of the best places for what it is.. a strange collection of news aggregation and intellectual comments (stick to the ones full of scientists).

Basically, Reddit is a gigantic freight train heading off the rails--as can be seen by the original link I posted where it's a majority of the users VS the corporate and ideological interests of the Reddit owners. Many people who casually look at it won't notice, but it's as a long time user (6+ years or more?) it's basically become an echo chamber. You either get everyone agreeing with you, or you get everyone silencing you. There's no middle-ground for just discussing things in an open-forum. You can't just ask a simple question like you can here like "what's the best way to accomplish X?" because if it's not "interesting to the masses" then they will downvote it away and no one will see it to answer it.

I've finally moved back to using forums because they have a much more firm user base and culture, and you can ask a unique question and get answers. If you want to learn how to use FPGAs, for example, Reddit would be impossible to ask your specific question. But it would be a good read for seeing popular questions answered.

It should be noted that Reddit's biggest demographic is teenagers and early 20's--people with way more voice than reason. So that's the kind of feedback you're going to get in the popular areas. If you don't mind everyone thinking masturbation jokes and simple puns are witty, then you'll be fine, but if you're looking for say, marriage advice from people who are actually in marriages (5, 10, 15+ years), you'll have to go to a very specific subreddit. Basically, you have to take steps to move toward people who are wiser than they are loud.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

l j
Member #10,584
January 2009
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Hive minds and dank memes weld Reddit's steel beams.

Just stay away from any big subreddits that are supposed to be about serious discussion and you'll tend to be fine.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

The last thing I'll say on Reddit is this delicious irony:

Quote:

Reddit co-founder Alexis Ohanian in an open letter to (now former) Digg CEO – Kevin Rose:
“You chose to grow with venture capital and you’ve no doubt (I hope) taken some money off the table in your Series C round. I say this because this new version of digg reeks of VC meddling. It’s cobbling together features from more popular sites and departing from the core of digg, which was to “give the power back to the people.”

http://searchengineland.com/digg-v4-how-to-successfully-kill-a-community-50450

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

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