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Abandoning Google
Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Matthew, Google is going to drop support for Oauth so you won't have a choice.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Trezker
Member #1,739
December 2001
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I think you should add SQRL support instead.
https://www.grc.com/sqrl/sqrl.htm

Kris Asick
Member #1,424
July 2001

Trezker said:

I think you should add SQRL support instead.

At first, I thought this was a joke since I had never heard of SQRL before now, then I noticed the grc.com URL, then I read through the page... and I would not be against this. ;)

--- Kris Asick (Gemini)
--- http://www.pixelships.com

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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The thing about SQRL authentication seems to be that your entire account is owned only by this automatically managed key-pair. Lose that key-pair and you lose access to your account. There's nothing particularly new about public key authentication. See SSH. The reason it isn't widely used is predominantly because managing keys is non-trivial and far too complicated for the users that already have trouble with usernames and passwords. Also, if the private key doesn't require a passphrase for use then all of your accounts are a lost or stolen cell phone/laptop away. Sigh...

Kris Asick
Member #1,424
July 2001

bamccaig said:

The thing about SQRL authentication seems to be that your entire account is owned only by this automatically managed key-pair. Lose that key-pair and you lose access to your account. There's nothing particularly new about public key authentication. See SSH. The reason it isn't widely used is predominantly because managing keys is non-trivial and far too complicated for the users that already have trouble with usernames and passwords. Also, if the private key doesn't require a passphrase for use then all of your accounts are a lost or stolen cell phone/laptop away. Sigh...

*has done some more thinking about SQRL* ...though I can understand why it isn't really in use anywhere yet. There's still a lot of hurdles to overcome. The idea that you can take back your accounts due to the way access to them works is nice, but then what do you do to stop the illegitimate access, and couldn't the person with illegitimate access in the first place do the same thing against you yourself?

EDIT (not many hours later): Back on topic: I finally found a way to get Google+ integration working with YouTube in Firefox, no thanks to their official help system. Because Google+ does not equal YouTube, but you need to be signed into Google+ to do YouTube stuff now, and because Google+ and YouTube do not have the same domain identifiers, the cookies generated by Google+ won't work from YouTube unless your browser is set up to allow third-party cookies or session-specific cookies.

Firefox does not have a global ability to allow session cookies like IE does, but you can allow session cookies for specific websites, so if you set up google.com as an exception to default cookie handling and set it for session cookies, Google+ will work properly again while on YouTube while using Firefox. You could also set it for third-party cookies, but I'm a bit weary of allowing third-party cookies that aren't linked to the present session, since those could easily be used for tracking purposes.

But yeah, so far I'm not having problems anymore with Google+ and YouTube linked together from within Firefox, but I've only done a little testing since figuring this out. I'm gonna give it another day or so to be certain it's all working again.

--- Kris Asick (Gemini)
--- http://www.pixelships.com

Trezker
Member #1,739
December 2001
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The basic idea for SQRL was only made public a few weeks ago. It came from Gibson and since then he and his community have been working on figuring out how to solve all the problems they could think of and work out a standard.

A bunch of people have been very impatient and started implementation straight away, I don't think any working client or server solution exists yet. Even if there is working software it would be subject to big changes as the standard gets hammered out.

The most important feature is that there is no third party involved that can be compromised. And the website you log into also can't leak your password since all they have is a public key they can use to verify that you have the password.
So if their database leaks, there wont be millions of users at risk. The only party that has a secret to leak is each individual user.

So the security is entirely up to the client software and its user.

pkrcel
Member #14,001
February 2012

Trezker said:

So the security is entirely up to the client software and its user.

Unfortunately this user is the SOURCE of each and every security problem. :-/

It is unlikely that Google shares your distaste for capitalism. - Derezo
If one had the eternity of time, one would do things later. - Johan Halmén

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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The best, practical solution to password management is some combination of a standard API and integrated browser support for services like LastPass and 1Password.

There's no reason password management couldn't be a standard browser feature that delegates the implementation to third parties. e.g., I ought to be able to use LastPass on mobile Safari without them having to write some wrapper app.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Google is fiddling with negative comments and view counts.

[1]

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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google sold out to endSA. They are collecting data on every one using a genetics web algorithm.

wow
-------------------------------
i am who you are not am i

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I'm quite amused that people are now spamming the comments section with comments using Unicode characters to form the image of soliders, weapons, and tanks, encouraging people to copy/paste and basically just spread the message to YouTube/Google to go fuck themselves and put it back you short bus motherfuckers. I love to see the Internet working together for the greater good. :D

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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They'll probably just tweak the comment rating system to automatically push those comments down.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Paul whoknows
Member #5,081
September 2004
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After crying like a baby for a few days, I must say, is not that bad after all :-X

:o

____

"The unlimited potential has been replaced by the concrete reality of what I programmed today." - Jordan Mechner.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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To me, sorting the comments seems like censorship. It's a good way to suppress ideas you don't agree with. I think it's useful to show the top rated comments just for curiosities sake since we don't all live on YouTube, but I'm against ranking them. People will generally report spam better, and ultimately you can't trust a ranking system with free speech.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Google's right to free speech = censorship. Weird how that works!

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Those aren't Google's words. Those are other people's words. Google is hosting them. It might not be illegal to apply bias to them, but it could certainly be unethical and wrong.

It would be like an organization hosting a public debate, but telling people what they can and cannot say during it. It kind of defeats the purpose.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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So it would be unethical and wrong for me to categorize the things people say here into organized forums, delete spam, etc? Free speech is free speech ... it doesn't end at your doorway.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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It would be unethical and wrong for you to delete or edit posts just because you don't agree with them, yes. Organizing data is fine. Google isn't organizing comments to make it easier to find the ones you're interested in. They're making a decision about which ones you're most likely to be interested in and making you go out of your way to access the rest. Or at least, that's what they claim to be doing. They could just as easily shape the comments for malevolent purposes (e.g., to silence debate or protest).

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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When you search the Internet for something should Google just display all results in a random order on one huge page?

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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When you search the Internet for something should Google just display all results in a random order on one huge page?

The whole idea behind search is trying to figure out what you're looking for (i.e., rank resources on the Web and attempt to index it against your query). Certainly it is equally unethical to abuse their power with search and give things higher or lower ranks relative to affiliations with Google. They have been accused of doing this, and it is absolutely considered an abuse of power.

Comments/forums are different. People aren't searching for comments. They're merely trying to read them. I don't even think there's a practical way to search comments unless Google exposes the comments through an API (which you could build a tool against). Obviously when we use A.cc's search page you too are trying to best identify what we're looking for and give it to us. Again, it would be unethical to apply bias there.

It doesn't matter what they have the right to do because it's their "property" / service / etc. This is a matter of ethics. The Internet is still a very young entity. It's a long way from being free of evil influences. People and organizations can and do abuse their control over it, and this should not be tolerated.

Loosely related: https://openmedia.org/censorship

Append:

I never proposed YouTube ordering comments randomly either. I think it stands to reason that ordering them chronologically (perhaps threaded-chronologically) is the best way for people to follow the discussion.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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So Google is able to order search results by what is relevant to you, but you don't think they are able to sort comments that way too?

I for one don't want to read the first "first" comment; I want to read the best comments. You want your comment to be read? Then make the best comment.

Actually I don't want to read any comments. >:(

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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For the most part, who even has time to read comments on YouTube? If I find a video particularly provoking then I'll generally post a comment and skim the latest ones and if I see something that provokes a reaction from me then I'll reply too. That's about the extent of it. I think that's all you can ask for. You can learn a lot more from watching more videos than you could from reading through the comments of a video (all fucking week since there's 30000 of them). It's basically just an opportunity to leave your mark on the video, and possibly interact with a random stranger as you pass through. Not all that much unlike visiting a real world landmark or attraction and meeting a random stranger and sharing a moment with them. That's all it is.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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A better option would be a choice of how comments are sorted.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I think that they're supposed to offer the choice, but that's not much different than Microsoft shipping IE with Windows. Most users are too oblivious to even imagine changing it! I'm not clear if it is something that is permanently stored, or temporarily stored in a cookie, or only applies to the current page either. One way or another, most of the time, you aren't even going to realize how comments are being ordered. It isn't going to stand out.

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