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The debt ceiling
Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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People struggle. People suffer. People die of hunger. With out a doubt, we as a world have the technologi­cal resources to squash it out, but we do not have the infrastruc­ture or social structure to allow these technologi­es to flourish, even though they are right there in our reach.

The American government is struggling­, and that's just to do something essential that's a no brainier. It's pathetic. This system is almost worthless. Essentials should be automated. We don't have time for this bullshit.

All I see is ideological grandstanding. No science, no intelligence, no discussions, only rampant stupidity.

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OnlineCop
Member #7,919
October 2006
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No science, no intelligence, no discussions, only rampant stupidity.

About sums up governments in general.

If anyone is going to fix the government, it certainly isn't going to be the government. Individual groups that can specialize in areas (finance, business, negotiations) are far better for the country than a bureaucracy, filled with people who have to vote on every decision.

Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
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As soon as there's a crowd, I'm in; and in hard. However, while the mantra is 'what can I do about it?' I'm keeping my head down.

Nice post, though.

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Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Such cynicism! Try living in the dark ages, or during one of the world wars, for a year. Then come back here and learn to appreciate what we have. >:(

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Trent Gamblin
Member #261
April 2000
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>:(

Actually just because you have it well and your friends and family doesn't mean everyone does.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Such cynicism! Try living in the dark ages, or during one of the world wars, for a year. Then come back here and learn to appreciate what we have. >:(

Cynicism != criticism. Nothing wrong with calling incompetence when you see it.

--
Software Development == Church Development
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Step 2. Pray.

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Mark, you could run for president, if it's a no brainer. ;)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Trent Gamblin
Member #261
April 2000
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Hold up, pause the thread for a moment. Is that a chocolate keyboard? Alright, resume.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Raising the debt ceiling is not a "no brainer." It's a temporary fix that will only cause more out of control spending. The problem is nobody wants to cut any of their pet projects.

The "no brainer" is passing some sort of balanced budget act. Want to start up a new social program or build a bridge to nowhere? Better have the balls to raise taxes. (Want to cut taxes? Better cut some programs.)

It's sacrilegious to make changes to Social Security, despite it being one of the most idiotic schemes ever. The government shouldn't pay for old people's retirement. They should save their own money and live off of investments. Everybody who worked would be better off that way (have much more money). And if you cannot make it on your own, that's what relatives are for. That's worked for, I don't know, hundreds of thousands of years.

And likewise, if we aren't spending billions of dollars a month blowing up some country and putting it back together, we aren't patriotic. >:(

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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Raising the debt ceiling is not a "no brainer." It's a temporary fix that will only cause more out of control spending.

And it worked fine for decades (not quite thousands of years, but getting there), which makes it correct, amirite?

Anyway, it's all a joke anyway. Whatever feeds the Daily Show fresh material is what's right in my book.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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SiegeLord said:

And it worked fine for decades (not quite thousands of years, but getting there), which makes it correct, amirite?

Not sure what you're getting at, but if we continue raising the debt ceiling and spending money, we will eventually be doomed. That is, the interest on our debt will be greater than total revenue. It hasn't "worked fine for decades" because at some point it will totally collapse.

Not raising the debt ceiling may cause a terrible hit to the economy in the short term, but it could just very well solve the long term problems that otherwise won't be going away.

But I fully expect both sides to strike a meaningless deal at the last second that raises the debt ceiling and does nothing else. The Republicans will hope to win the Senate in the next elections and then finally get some balanced budget policies in place.

Trent Gamblin
Member #261
April 2000
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And if you cannot make it on your own, that's what relatives are for.

Then don't complain when some mentally ill homeless guy robs you so he can get a shower and a sandwich. Gotta do what you gotta do.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Social programs for disabled people are a different topic... They are far less costly than something as general purpose as Social Security.

verthex
Member #11,340
September 2009
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America is a broken nation and its too late to change that.

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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It hasn't "worked fine for decades" because at some point it will totally collapse.

Sure it has. No single debt limit increase had any end-of-the-world effect on anything, ever. I'm sure there is some larger, long term problem out there somewhere, but the debt limit increases (or even the concept of a debt limit) have nothing to do with it.

You wouldn't need to increase the debt limit if the budget passed the by the congress didn't go past the current limit. The budget was passed with the assumption that the debt limit would be raised accordingly (as it has been tens of times before without any issue), and therefore, it must be raised. End of story. If you don't like the debt, craft the budget such that it reduces it. Forbid debt limits and then craft the budget accordingly, not craft the budget assuming debt limit increases and then outlaw debt limit increases. One approach is a logical approach. The other one involves a gun and a foot.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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I'm speaking of the mentality of spending more than you make. It isn't sustainable. The debt ceiling has nothing to do with that.

Of course it (the debt ceiling) is a stupid concept, and it shouldn't be the center piece of the debate, or used as leverage. But unfortunately it is the only trick that can be used to try to get some lasting and effective change.

At some point within 20-30 years at the current rates, we will be spending more on mandatory social programs than incoming revenue. Once that breaking point is reached, the amount of money spent on interest will grow exponentially.

And I think it's stupid to think that Congress can take care of the problem with good, old fashioned debate. If that worked, we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with. :P

Trent Gamblin
Member #261
April 2000
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Social programs for disabled people are a different topic...

Who said anything about social programs? I just like sandwiches, and they won't let you in if you haven't showered in months (I haven't.)

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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It's sacrilegious to make changes to Social Security, despite it being one of the most idiotic schemes ever. The government shouldn't pay for old people's retirement. They should save their own money and live off of investments.

I don't know how SS works, but afaik, CPP here in canada you pay into it every month you work. You have to. Its essentially a forced RRSP. You have every right to collect.

But unfortunately it is the only trick that can be used to try to get some lasting and effective change.

Too bad thats not what it's being used for. So far its all just shenanigans and petty bickering, even with in party lines. Its ridiculous. They really should sit down and compromise. Make some cuts, and let the Bush tax cuts lapse. Had they done that a couple years ago, there'd already be less debt, and probably wouldn't even need to raise the debt ceiling.

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verthex
Member #11,340
September 2009
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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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I don't know how SS works, but afaik, CPP here in canada you pay into it every month you work. You have to. Its essentially a forced RRSP. You have every right to collect.

One does not pay into Social Security so that he can take it back out. It doesn't work that way. The first people benefiting didn't put a dime into it. The current working generation is always paying for the retired generation.

I understand what you mean by having a "right to collect," but it's a fallacy to think of it as a personal savings plan. It's just a tax taken from your paycheck and given to somebody else. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what label the government uses when it takes your money.

If it were about personal savings, then the government ought to mandate a private, personal investment plan where you get exactly what you put in. Then the 12% spent on Social Security can be reduced to something more manageable, like 2% for disability benefits.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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One does not pay into Social Security so that he can take it back out. It doesn't work that way. The first people benefiting didn't put a dime into it. The current working generation is always paying for the retired generation.

Yes, you pay into it, so you can collect later. Sure, the money you gave them actually gets invested, and the proceeds of that go to people currently collecting, but you DO get a benefit from paying into it.

Quote:

The current working generation is always paying for the retired generation.

If you like to think about it that way, the last generation paid for you. So really, no one is out of pocket, so long as no-one gets gypped.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Goalie Ca
Member #2,579
July 2002
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The wars cost trillions in direct spending and the defense budget is ludicrous. Not to mention you guys still spend more on health care despite not having universal coverage. Health care is usually one of the largest expenses for a nation. Then you look at the taxation policy where the rich pretty much get a free lunch (despite the top few percent having the majority wealth concentration). Congrats at not looking outside of your own country for solutions to any problem. A made in america solution is always a poorly re-invented wheel. I don't want to be mean but your federal and state policies are ridiculous. I'm still amazed with all the MODERN problems in the world things like abortion, evolution, gun rights, and gay rights are still the talking points.

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raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

The debt ceiling was a good idea: A mechanism to prevent unlimited spending by the government, but since the government was generally just irresponsible enough to raise it every time the limit was reached, there was no point as it only wasted time having to get the branches of government agreeing to raise it.

Undoubtedly, both sides are posturing, but for the record, I agree with the Republicans taking a stand. Going trillions further into debt to pay for unfunded expenditures is just plain stupid. The States have to balance their budget (for good reasons), so as far as I'm concerned, any smart and honest person should agree the Fed should be required to do the same. No matter what, the debt should only be allowed to decrease, starting as soon as possible.

Going endlessly into debt to pay for Social programs is misguided Socialism. The ends don't always justify the means, regardless of what politicians on either side of the scale may say. I say make everybody pay a flat Federal tax rate (percentage), no loop holes, no exploiting people based on their pay grade. NO FEDERAL HANDOUTS FOR NON CITIZENS. We have enough of our own people to take care of without having to give freebies to illegal aliens. If the path to citizenship can be made easier, I'm all for it as long as it requires new citizens to carry their own weight and not be a burden on the rest of the country. I have read that gaining Mexican citizenship requires that, so if Mexico objects to that, they are hypocrites. Some people are genuinely too disabled for most kinds of work, but there are too many leeches in the system sucking the tax revenue dry, make them become productive and responsible members of society. I know some people who collect Welfare or Disability through their own laziness and irresponsibility, and it really annoys me because there are better ways for the government to allocate tax money.

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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raynebc said:

Undoubtedly, both sides are posturing, but for the record, I agree with the Republicans taking a stand.

Stand on what? Their position is incoherent: they only care about keeping the tax cuts. The Democratic plans have been just as good or better at cutting the deficit, and yet because they ceased the tax breaks (or perhaps because they are Democratic in origin), they have been rejected.

Quote:

NO FEDERAL HANDOUTS FOR NON CITIZENS. We have enough of our own people to take care of without having to give freebies to illegal aliens.

So, all non-citizens are illegal aliens? ::)

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
avatar

Has Canada gotten the hockey riots under control yet? ???



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