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Starcraft 2
X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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Won two matches with void rays, then I get hit by 6 roaches after 5 minutes. How the fuck am I supposed to deal with that? I can't build zealots any faster, not without crippling my strategy.

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Since 2008-Jun-18, democracy in Sweden is dead. | 悪霊退散!悪霊退散!怨霊、物の怪、困った時は ドーマン!セーマン!ドーマン!セーマン! 直ぐに呼びましょう陰陽師レッツゴー!

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Your strategy needs room for flexibility. Otherwise, yes, getting hit by something you weren't expecting will pooch you. Scout early and have some base defense.

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X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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I did have some base defense. I had two zealots, a sentry and was about to add a photon cannon to it. Other than that I was fully focused on getting the heavy economy up required for Void Ray harassment to work.

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Since 2008-Jun-18, democracy in Sweden is dead. | 悪霊退散!悪霊退散!怨霊、物の怪、困った時は ドーマン!セーマン!ドーマン!セーマン! 直ぐに呼びましょう陰陽師レッツゴー!

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Remember your own comment earlier; you need to wall in if you're relying on building up your economy.

X-G said:

And rushing is useless, since the enemy can just wall off his ramp and become invulnerable to a frontal attack

I had a Protoss/Zerg team do this yesterday; 5 Cannons on one ramp and 6 Spine Crawlers on the other. Focus on making your cannon wall, then focus on pumping out Void Rays. Focusing on building money while half-assing your defense is a great way to die on the first assault.

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Software Development == Church Development
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Step 2. Pray.

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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I was going to wall up, but I can't wall up without money, and I can't get money if I don't invest in money, and if I invest in money I get destroyed by roaches. Any other ideas? :P Spending money on a defense that you never end up using is even worse.

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Since 2008-Jun-18, democracy in Sweden is dead. | 悪霊退散!悪霊退散!怨霊、物の怪、困った時は ドーマン!セーマン!ドーマン!セーマン! 直ぐに呼びましょう陰陽師レッツゴー!

mEmO
Member #1,124
March 2001
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Any half decent player that sees canons on your ramp will immediately know what's up and fend of your rays, or possibly just push through before you get them out, depending on their build. The only way to know how to respond to these things is to play and watch a lot of games, to a point where you have encountered any feasible build and/or cheese, and figure out how to act accordingly.

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relpatseht
Member #5,034
September 2004
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The key really is scouting. I usually send my first probe/scv/drone to their base to see what their doing and leave it there (in one of the corners) or close so it can keep scouting at least once more before being destroyed.

Of course, seeing what your opponent is doing is useless if you can't use that information to counter their build. For instance, if your terran and you see two warp gates going up, you know to go reapers. If you see multiple extractors early game, their probably teching up/going air.

You need to balance investing in economy and investing in base defense (even if it's "slower") early game.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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X-G said:

Spending money on a defense that you never end up using is even worse.

The units are prices accordingly; Cannons, Turrets, and Crawlers are relatively cheap because they may never fire a shot. Sure, there's a chance they may be a waste of money, but so is everything you build. And you'll be sorry the next time Dark Templars are merrily carving up your Drones.

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Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
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This time I had a great defense, but I still lost. I can't build enough stalkers to take down his vikings, even with a far superior economy.

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Since 2008-Jun-18, democracy in Sweden is dead. | 悪霊退散!悪霊退散!怨霊、物の怪、困った時は ドーマン!セーマン!ドーマン!セーマン! 直ぐに呼びましょう陰陽師レッツゴー!

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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I think at this point we really need to see some replays. If you have a superior economy then either you have too much money (ie: you aren't converting it into troops quick enough) or something else is going on here.

EDIT: For the hell of it I'm going to post that 1 hour 3v3 from work I mentioned earlier. Only decent players were me (as hot-pink Zerg) and my production manager (McAwesome). tooled is normally good as he's an old hand at Starcraft, but he was lagging so bad he couldn't do much. The other three were largely noobs. Nothing special, just entertaining to do 3v3s with friends. :)

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Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Goalie Ca
Member #2,579
July 2002
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I'm the kind of player that goes for a fast expand and macros up really fast. I try and build up a forward army somewhere around where the other players are supposed to expand. I seee a lot of players only expanding when they start running low on minerals in their main. That is not the right thing. You need to be able to replace your entire army in a minute in order to win.

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Crazy Photon
Member #2,588
July 2002
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Lego Starcraft:

video

I've a coworker who is about to get Stacraft 2, so I may buy it in the future (although I'd prefer to wait until it's a bit cheaper, still I don't know if my laptop can handle it though - HP Pavillion dv6000).

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Resistance is NEVER futile...

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
avatar

Lego Starcraft:

See? Air wins again! wtf

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Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
avatar

What the hell, was that Dragoons? There are no Dragoons in Starcraft II. ;_;

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Since 2008-Jun-18, democracy in Sweden is dead. | 悪霊退散!悪霊退散!怨霊、物の怪、困った時は ドーマン!セーマン!ドーマン!セーマン! 直ぐに呼びましょう陰陽師レッツゴー!

mEmO
Member #1,124
March 2001
avatar

There was a request for cheesy replays somewhere in this thread, here is one particular game that made me rage pretty bad. It's not like you're ever going to scout that in time.

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There is only one God, and Connor is his son!
http://www.memocomputers.com
Happy birthday!

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
avatar

That replay is what I'm going to point to now when people tell me they don't need to make turrets/crawlers/cannons for perimeter defense, especially when everyone should know Protoss go Void Ray spam 50% of the time. You had money for 5 missile turrets minimum before the Voids arrived; grouped around your command center that would have been your win. :)

EDIT: I also shudder that Thomas probably thinks that was a rush ... on both sides. :)

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Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

james_lohr
Member #1,947
February 2002

It's usually more about execution than strategy. A highly ranked player could easily make a well-rounded army and stomp anything that less skilled player throws at him, though it wouldn't be the easiest way for him to win.

If your opponent builds cannons, then you should have a larger army and should be able to win by stopping him expanding while expanding yourself.

Likewise, if your opponent expands before you, try to hit him just after the expo goes up when you should have a far superior army provided you scout and don't let him get towers up first, and you haven't wasted your own resources on towers.

X-G
Member #856
December 2000
avatar

On that topic, how are you supposed to scout effectively, i.e. without getting your scout immediately killed and learning nothing of value? Seeing a barracks going up at 2:00 hardly helps. You knew he was going to do that anyway. And any later, you tend to die before getting close enough to see any structures.

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Since 2008-Jun-18, democracy in Sweden is dead. | 悪霊退散!悪霊退散!怨霊、物の怪、困った時は ドーマン!セーマン!ドーマン!セーマン! 直ぐに呼びましょう陰陽師レッツゴー!

james_lohr
Member #1,947
February 2002

I don't know - I've never had much success scouting between him getting a wall up and me getting an observer out. What I meant was scouting for expansions, which is quite easy to do.

A few other things I've noticed: your workers are very good at defending early rushes. Also, high ground makes a ridiculously large difference (and seems to work for air too!). If you get a void ray out early along with some zealots and defend at your slope, it's amazing how an opponents ranged ground units disintegrate.

mEmO
Member #1,124
March 2001
avatar

Protoss go Void Ray spam 50% of the time

Nah, I've seen it once or twice in diamond. It's not really effective at all unless it's an all in such as this that doesn't get scouted.

---------------------------------------------
There is only one God, and Connor is his son!
http://www.memocomputers.com
Happy birthday!

Steve Terry
Member #1,989
March 2002
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My wife is awesome, she bought me SCII for my birthday... I have no idea how she even knew that was a game I wanted, but she managed to get the right one and completely surprised me. Now I just got to find the time to actually play the game, maybe we can all have another B.NET tournament :)

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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
avatar

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Sometimes you can't scout their base; just don't let him scout yours either. Changelings and Observers help. Nothing can stop a Sensor Sweep, of course. :) And yes, patrol the expansions. Always, always, always.

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Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

GameCreator
Member #2,541
July 2002
avatar

X-G said:

Seeing a barracks going up at 2:00 hardly helps.

Keep your scout around for more info. Don't be afraid of losing it. What he attacks your scout with is valuable information. More than that, if he's going for a reaper rush, for example, him cranking out a marine first to kill your scout delays his reaper that much longer for you to counter it. Scan, use an Observer or sacrifice an Overlord some time in to get further info.

mEmO said:

It's not like you're ever going to scout that in time.

To complicate matters, what your opponent doesn't have in his base also helps. That he seemingly only had a gateway and a cybernetics core at that point in the game should definitely raise some alarms.

Also, use turrets, cannons and the like sparingly. The more you use, the more on the defensive you are. 10 turrets in your main won't help defend your expansion. But your enemy's 20 marine army, for the same price, will happily attack it.

That said, if your opponent is slow and you think you can out-tech him, by all means wall off and try.

Edit: Hmm. I can't attach files. Dropping a file onto the area makes Firefox want to open it. Clicking the "Drop Attachments Here" as a button and trying to attach it does nothing. :'(

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
avatar

10 turrets in your main won't help defend your expansion. But your enemy's 20 marine army, for the same price, will happily attack it.

And this is why I like Spore Crawlers. ;D Offensive crawls is lawls.

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Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.



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