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Silly theoretical physics question.
type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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Is it possible to increase the mass of a closed(isolated) system(aka for it to increase it's own mass, while being isolated from the outer world)?

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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No.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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So the universe will burn? :o

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Huh?

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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Assuming universe is a closed system, and is transforming mass to energy- the mass will disappear..

Bob Keane
Member #7,342
June 2006

The key word being assuming.

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Billybob
Member #3,136
January 2003

If mass is never created, where did it come from?

Bob Keane
Member #7,342
June 2006

That's like asking: which came first, the chicken or the egg? I think the latest theory was that mass existed in a singularity and the Big Bang released that mass and energy. Which explains why the universe is expanding.

By reading this sig, I, the reader, agree to render my soul to Bob Keane. I, the reader, understand this is a legally binding contract and freely render my soul.
"Love thy neighbor as much as you love yourself means be nice to the people next door. Everyone else can go to hell. Missy Cooper.
The advantage to learning something on your own is that there is no one there to tell you something can't be done.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I was under the (probably) silly impression that it was ALL energy at that point, and because of the massive amount of it, when it finally exploded, some of it coalesced into a bunch of basic particles, which then combined into Hydrogen and Helium due to the insane amount of energy (there was a lot of heat) around at the time.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Goalie Ca
Member #2,579
July 2002
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type568 said:

Is it possible to increase the mass of a closed(isolated) system(aka for it to increase it's own mass, while being isolated from the outer world)?

type568 said:

So the universe will burn?

You're thinking about entropy here. google "heat death"

Billybob said:

If mass is never created, where did it come from?

There is no before the universe, it just always was despite existing a finite amount of time. Well that's what the math says.. the rest is up to crazy philosophers.

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Bah weep granah weep nini bong!

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Goalie Ca said:

You're thinking about entropy here.

Yeah. The way I heard it explained was that should the universe keep expanding, and no new energy or matter is added. Eventually, everything will break down into the basic particles (whatever they may be), and be so far apart theres no chance for them to recombine.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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Hydrogen and Helium due to the insane amount of energy (there was a lot of heat) around at the time.

If I'm not wrong, heat definition is derived from existence of matter(mass?)..

Goalie Ca
Member #2,579
July 2002
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Heat and entropy are interesting things to define. Personally, I prefer the idea of entropy as a measure of "information" and the universe as a computer.

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Bah weep granah weep nini bong!

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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type568 said:

If I'm not wrong, heat definition is derived from existence of matter(mass?)..

I'm no scientist ;D At any rate, the stuff that was being converted was very hot, in the millions (or tens-hundreds of millions) of degrees.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Karadoc ~~
Member #2,749
September 2002
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Mass and energy are more or less the same thing. In fact, strangely enough, stretching an elastic band will actually (minutely) increase its gravitational pull - because stretching it gives it more energy - so its gets heavier! (Meanwhile, whatever did the work on the elastic band to stretch will have lost some energy and thus be 'lighter'.) The conversion factor between mass and energy is the speed of light squared, as you probably already know.

So, with all that in mind, a closed system cannot increase or decrease its mass.

Mind you, the sum of the 'rest mass' of all the little bits inside the closed system might change.

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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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type568 said:

transforming mass to energy

Mass is a form of energy. I keep saying that!

Anyway, you can't transform all of the mass into other kinds of energy, because certain other quantities also need to be preserved (in particular, electric change and quark numbers).

Billybob said:

If mass is never created, where did it come from?

You mean, when you sum all the contributions together, is the total net energy of the universe 0?
That's an interesting question. I'm not current on the latest cosmolgical models, but the idea is that, yes, it is. That means you need a large reservoir of negative potential energy (since the mass energy is obviously positive), which from what I remember people try to put in (the topology of) the event horizon of the universe. Not sure what the current status of that is or whether it's a particularly active field.
Alternatively, when you form a universe, it forms a pair, one with positive mass and one with negative mass. 8-)

I was under the (probably) silly impression that it was ALL energy at that point, and because of the massive amount of it, when it finally exploded, some of it coalesced into a bunch of basic particles, which then combined into Hydrogen and Helium due to the insane amount of energy (there was a lot of heat) around at the time.

No, that's more or less right. There is a (unsolved) problem with the idea though: you can only create particles together with their anti-particles. So the universe would need to be made up out of equal parts matter and anti-matter. Question: where is all the anti-matter? In principle there could be anti-matter galaxies out there and we'd never know it from looking at them. Doesn't really fit with how we now think large galaxies formed though (by merging lots of little galaxies), since you'd expect matter and anti-matter galaxies to merge every now and then, with lots of matter and anti-matter annialating. You'd be able to see that in X-rays (and we don't).
One solution is "symmitry breaking": matter and anti-matter are not exact mirror images of eachother, at least at high energies. Again though, it's not clear how you'd do this and I'm not current on the latest developments here.

Eventually, everything will break down into the basic particles (whatever they may be), and be so far apart theres no chance for them to recombine.

I think you'd actually expect a lot of the mass to go into compact objects: black holes, neutron stars and white dwarfs. Once those form it's very hard to break them up again, although it is true that black holes evaporate through Hawking radiation.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Evert said:

One solution is "symmitry breaking": matter and anti-matter are not exact mirror images of eachother, at least at high energies. Again though, it's not clear how you'd do this and I'm not current on the latest developments here.

I've heard reference that there wasn't an equal amount of mater and anti-mater created. Some theory shows that at the moment of the initial explosion there could have been a bias due to the makeup of the "plasma" (or whatever you want to call it). Could be mixing that up with something else though.

append: Also, that theres a possibility of anit-mater turning into matter under some conditions during an event like the big bang. Also can't guarantee thats an accurate statement.

Quote:

I think you'd actually expect a lot of the mass to go into compact objects: black holes, neutron stars and white dwarfs. Once those form it's very hard to break them up again, although it is true that black holes evaporate through Hawking radiation.

Yeah, I was talking absolutely astronomical time scales though. Long enough for even the largest black holes to evaporate, and neutron starts to cool down, and the mater from them to break apart (entropify.. is that even a word?).

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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I've heard reference that there wasn't an equal amount of mater and anti-mater created. Some theory shows that at the moment of the initial explosion there could have been a bias due to the makeup of the "plasma" (or whatever you want to call it). Could be mixing that up with something else though.

append: Also, that theres a possibility of anit-mater turning into matter under some conditions during an event like the big bang. Also can't guarantee thats an accurate statement.

Nope, that's effectively the same thing I said.

Quote:

I was talking absolutely astronomical time scales though.

We're way beyond astronomical timescales at that point though. That's how long it takes. ;)

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Evert said:

Nope, that's effectively the same thing I said.

That link in my post might be interesting for one possibility.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Billybob
Member #3,136
January 2003

The way I heard it explained was that should the universe keep expanding, and no new energy or matter is added. Eventually, everything will break down into the basic particles (whatever they may be), and be so far apart theres no chance for them to recombine.

But gravity would eventually bring everything back together, no? As I learned in another thread, thanks to Evert, it is impossible for things to be so far apart that they do not attract. Therefore gravity should eventually pull all energy back to the "center".

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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Billybob said:

But gravity would eventually bring everything back together, no? As I learned in another thread, thanks to Evert, it is impossible for things to be so far apart that they do not attract. Therefore gravity should eventually pull all energy back to the "center".

No, it is not necessarily true. If the objects move to away to each other fast enough, due to the distance between them being increasing it's absolutely not necessary at all for them to get pulled back together, they maybe always increasing the distance between them. Or perhaps(if there was not enough kinetic energy for'em to part forever), they may start orbiting each other.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Billybob said:

gravity should eventually pull all energy back to the "center".

No, the gravity will constantly slow them down, but if the objects are receding fast enough, they'll be under less gravitational pull (due to increased distance) than the amount of slowdown. It's called "escape velocity". For instance, the Earth has an escape velocity of 11.2 km/second, if you had nothing but the Earth and some small object at the edge of the universe, this object would fall to Earth after an incredibly long interval and impact the earth at 11.2 km/second. So if an object were propelled away from it at 12 km/second, it'd never slow to a standstill.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Goalie Ca
Member #2,579
July 2002
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I think this is a really neat idea for gravity.
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1001.0785

-------------
Bah weep granah weep nini bong!

Billybob
Member #3,136
January 2003

No, the gravity will constantly slow them down, but if the objects are receding fast enough, they'll be under less gravitational pull (due to increased distance) than the amount of slowdown.

Point well taken. Well, goodbye Universe. We knew you well :'(

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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Billybob said:

Point well taken. Well, goodbye Universe. We knew you well

No worries Bob, it'll last way longer than will you :P ;)

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