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Multiple motherboards in one case under a single OS.
verthex
Member #11,340
September 2009
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Hello gang!

So I'm wondering what if instead of multiprocessor main-boards under one OS, is there a way build a machine that has multiple main-boards stacked somehow into a case using a large single power supply and have it run off one single hard drive with one OS? I'm wondering if this is possible under Windows, Linux, or some other OS?

8-)

jhuuskon
Member #302
April 2000
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Sure it is, Gentoo supports it natively.

You don't deserve my sig.

deps
Member #3,858
September 2003
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Only if you network them, and you can't physically connect a harddrive to two boards.
But I'm not a hardware guy so I don't really know, but it sounds silly.

Edit: I stand corrected. :P
Edit again: Guess I wasn't.

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jhuuskon
Member #302
April 2000
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I was kidding dumbasses. What you're building is a cluster computer, I'm sure google can tell you what you need for one to work and and you can do with it.

You don't deserve my sig.

verthex
Member #11,340
September 2009
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deps said:

But I'm not a hardware guy so I don't really know, but it sounds silly.

Think about it this way. One case 10 computers versus 10 computers in 10 cases with 10 separate power supplies. I think the former is a better alternative because it saves space, generates less heat (possibly), maybe cheaper to build since I wont need 500 dollars just for 10 cases.

Great article

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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You can put multiple machines in few cases. Its done all the time with blade type servers. Theres even a newish kind where they put the power in the server rack itself, and all of the individual blades share the same redundant power supply. Something like 150 or 300 mini blade servers in a single rack. And they are separate systems, each with their own OS install. Whereas there are other types of systems where you can hot swap blade like modules, but they all sit on the same shared bus, and act as a single MONSTER (4096 cups? no problem! multi TB ram? Sure!) system.

None of these machines are affordable to most people though. The most you'll beable to manage yourself (most likely) is a single large case, and a few motherboards mounted inside. It'd take some customizing of the case, and the power supply though. And if you really care about uptime, you'll want a redundant hot-swapable power supply. They aren't cheap though.

--
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"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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verthex said:

Think about it this way. One case 10 computers versus 10 computers in 10 cases with 10 separate power supplies. I think the former is a better alternative because it saves space, generates less heat (possibly), maybe cheaper to build since I wont need 500 dollars just for 10 cases.

The question is why you need'em under one O.S?
You can connect them using Ethernet(for example), network boot from a single HDD..
So generally, it's just a question of a case and a PSU..

verthex
Member #11,340
September 2009
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type568 said:

You can connect them using Ethernet(for example), network boot from a single HDD..

Is there a some kind of tutorial for that, thus far I've only seen cluster which require separate hard drives for each board, or actually they just don't explain the logic behind having a single HDD.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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Sorry, no. I'm just speaking of general knowledge. Yet, It is obviously not an issue, if you get a proper case and PSU, as I stated before.

Edit:
or actually they just don't explain the logic behind having a single HDD.

The logic of having single HDD, is to save money obviously.. Also effort in some cases. & network boot makes it possible.

verthex
Member #11,340
September 2009
avatar

You can put multiple machines in few cases. Its done all the time with blade type servers. Theres even a newish kind where they put the power in the server rack itself, and all of the individual blades share the same redundant power supply. Something like 150 or 300 mini blade servers in a single rack. And they are separate systems, each with their own OS install. Whereas there are other types of systems where you can hot swap blade like modules, but they all sit on the same shared bus, and act as a single MONSTER (4096 cups? no problem! multi TB ram? Sure!) system.

None of these machines are affordable to most people though. The most you'll beable to manage yourself (most likely) is a single large case, and a few motherboards mounted inside. It'd take some customizing of the case, and the power supply though. And if you really care about uptime, you'll want a redundant hot-swapable power supply. They aren't cheap though.

Blade would be nice but I'm looking at it from this perspective right now...

type568 said:

Sorry, no. I'm just speaking of general knowledge. Yet, It is obviously not an issue, if you get a proper case and PSU, as I stated before

I know, a lot of this stuff seems ad-hoc.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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If you're really going to do this, and don't want to have a HD plugged into each mobo, plug one into the master node, and setup DHCP/BootP+TFTP and network booting on the rest. Have all of the slave nodes setup to boot off of the nic, and they will automatically query your master node for an ip, grab a boot image off the master, and finish booting. With the right config inside the boot image, each machine can setup their root filesystem over NFS as well. It'd be best for performance if all the machines spoke Gigabit Ethernet, and you put in a real Gigabit Ethernet switch (No hubs). Good thing is a decent 8port GB switch is rather cheap these days, and most motherboards come with at least one built in GbE port.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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If you're really going to do this, and don't want to have a HD plugged into each mobo, plug one into the master node, and setup DHCP/BootP+TFTP and network booting on the rest. Have all of the slave nodes setup to boot off of the nic, and they will automatically query your master node for an ip, grab a boot image off the master, and finish booting. With the right config inside the boot image, each machine can setup their root filesystem over NFS as well. It'd be best for performance if all the machines spoke Gigabit Ethernet, and you put in a real Gigabit Ethernet switch (No hubs). Good thing is a decent 8port GB switch is rather cheap these days, and most motherboards come with at least one built in GbE port.

Yawn. Something like that, but he still needs a PSU & a place to store that stuff in.

verthex
Member #11,340
September 2009
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type568 said:

place to store that stuff in.

I'm not worrying much about the PSU, although I wonder if there is one for many boards so I can just have a PSU that has something like 10 connectors and can power each board. I'm more worried about storage, not sure how or where I could find one that's prebuilt, besides having to buy a system with it. I guess going to a hardware place and buying specialty metal frames with holes would work. I'm also thinking of liquid cooling and getting a processor from the AMD Black edition for overclocking.

ixilom
Member #7,167
April 2006
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There was (they canned the project at 75% completion) a PCI card for PC's ages ago that hosted an Amiga (600 I believe) called Siamese :)

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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verthex said:

I'm not worrying much about the PSU, although I wonder if there is one for many boards so I can just have a PSU that has something like 10 connectors and can power each board. I'm more worried about storage, not sure how or where I could find one that's prebuilt, besides having to buy a system with it. I guess going to a hardware place and buying specialty metal frames with holes would work. I'm also thinking of liquid cooling and getting a processor from the AMD Black edition for overclocking.

Power supplies barely manage to run a single over clocked cpu these days. AMD's Black editions are all generally 125w or higher (some are 140w), and thats at stock settings. Over clock it and it's likely to jump much higher. Good luck powering multiple overclocked systems with a single PSU.

In the end you're most likely going to have to modify a case and PSU yourself. You might be able to find ATX power cable splitters on ebay or something so you might not have to actually splice in more ATX power plugs yourself.

If I was going to work on a project like this, I'd probably try and find a psu from a disused Blade server box, or even just an old redundant power supply from some server.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

verthex
Member #11,340
September 2009
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with two of these I might get 8 boards running.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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In the end you're most likely going to have to modify a case and PSU yourself. You might be able to find ATX power cable splitters on ebay or something so you might not have to actually splice in more ATX power plugs yourself.

Warning: If you wanna run just one of the mobos at some point, or at least restart one having the rest on, you might need to think again.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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You'll be best of going with a PSU that either has a single 12v rail, or maybe two, but makes the amperage EVEN across the rails.

One problem you will probably face is the "power ok", offline power, and other such bits that each motherboard is provided. I'm not sure how well it'll work when you hook up multiple boards to the same PSU.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

verthex
Member #11,340
September 2009
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type568 said:

Warning: If you wanna run just one of the mobos at some point, or at least restart one having the rest on, you might need to think again.

I'm thinking of keeping the main node running while having the option to power on machines as needed with increased resource need. That would be the most effective system.

One problem you will probably face is the "power ok", offline power, and other such bits that each motherboard is provided. I'm not sure how well it'll work when you hook up multiple boards to the same PSU.

Is there any way to switch the nodes off based on need?

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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type568 said:

Warning: If you wanna run just one of the mobos at some point, or at least restart one having the rest on, you might need to think again.

There might be issues, but if tbh I think as long as one board is still on, it should keep the psu from shutting off. OR make sure the other boards don't connect to the "power ok" signal and other such signals.

verthex said:

Is there any way to switch the nodes off based on need?

I honestly don't know for certain. the PSUs and mobos weren't designed for this.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

verthex
Member #11,340
September 2009
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I honestly don't know for certain. the PSUs and mobos weren't designed for this.

What I'm thinking is that, if it was possible to boot a node board off the main node HDD with the other boards staying off, then there wouldn't be a problem with the PSU since the boards that are running only draw the required current. The problem I'm seeing is, how would it be possible to boot a single node if the main one is running already? I wonder if it would be possible to just have a bootable USB for each board? maybe that would work.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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The hard drive or storage really has nothing to do with the problem. The problem is what happens when you wire up more than one board to a psu? I don't know.

It is possible that it'll all "just work" because the main/master node is always on. But things might also glitch if they all share the same low voltage signal "special purpose" lines.

You SHOULD be able to wake nodes up using the power switch, and of course wake-on-lan. What happens when they are all sharing the "power ok" and "vsb" type lines, I have no clue.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

verthex
Member #11,340
September 2009
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You SHOULD be able to wake nodes up using the power switch, and of course wake-on-lan. What happens when they are all sharing the "power ok" and "vsb" type lines, I have no clue.

I think I will try making a cluster with a main node and another mobo, so two computers together and see how that would work.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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verthex said:

I think I will try making a cluster with a main node and another mobo, so two computers together and see how that would work.

Well if you do it with two separate power supplies, it'll work fine. Once you get into modifying a psu to get two motherboards hooked up, well there are no guarantees.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

verthex
Member #11,340
September 2009
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Well if you do it with two separate power supplies, it'll work fine. Once you get into modifying a psu to get two motherboards hooked up, well there are no guarantees.

I see, basically if one machine is off the the whole thing is off too. Yeah, I have to see how that would run first and see if someone has invented some kinda 3rd party PSU kit for it.

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