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What have you accomplished?
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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After a short study of Enron it becomes very clear that the scandal was government induced.

Who do you think paid off the Govt to deregulate?

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"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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Quote:

So have I, hasn't helped ;) I still get the same physical effects...

Ok, here's how I got over it. First don't abandon those thoughts all together. Worf once said "A man without fear is a fool." Just know when it's relevant and don't let it consume you.

I just eventually got to the point where I no longer felt out of place. If everybody's wearing a fancy jacket and I have a t-shirt on then screw em, don't they wish they knew how not to conform.

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...do enjoy playing games again instead of just seeing them as the collection of numbers and algorithms that they are and asking myself "why bother?"

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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I taught myself Perl at the age of 16 after only being taught a little HTML with no prior experience...

Fixed. ::)

Quote:

But more importantly, is my realization on how FUBAR the situation in Africa is. People are literally dying every day because they don't have clean water... and we're wondering what movie to go see / what idol is the news. How fucked up is that?

Personally, I find it difficult to feel responsible in any way when they continue to reproduce with nothing to actually sustain themselves. I have no food, no water, no way to actually survive on my own. What should I do about this? Why, create another mouth to feed, of course!

I think if they want my help they should take a little responsibility for themselves. There are enough starving people in Africa. They should stop reproducing and give the world a chance to sustain them. Maybe if that can actually happen, conditions can actually improve to a point where they can actually sustain themselves instead of just remaining in the same miserable place forever.

Of course, the same goes for people right here in our backyards. These ignorant bitches that have 3 kids and can't afford to pay rent, let alone feed them. Fuck them.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

Ok, here's how I got over it. First don't abandon those thoughts all together. Worf once said "A man without fear is a fool." Just know when it's relevant and don't let it consume you.

That only works for the effects you can control. I get uncontrollable physical responses as well.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Thomas Fjellstrom said:

That only works for the effects you can control. I get uncontrollable physical responses as well.

I think it's reasonable to assume that any physical responses to social interaction are triggered by the brain and therefore not uncontrollable. I think for me, the key would be learning from an expert on human behavior and social interaction what is and what isn't normal... I need a RL walkthrough. \o/

ImLeftFooted
Member #3,935
October 2003
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Thomas said:

Who do you think paid off the Govt to deregulate?

You're missing the point. Read my post again, it was a good one.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Quote:

Personally, I find it difficult to feel responsible in any way when they continue to reproduce with nothing to actually sustain themselves. I have no food, no water, no way to actually survive on my own. What should I do about this? Why, create another mouth to feed, of course!

That's a generalization of complex problems. Problems the United States and Soviet Union are partially responsible for. For example: During the Cold War, the US and Soviets had stockpiles of weapons all across Africa. When the cold war ended, it was cheaper to leave guns where they lay then to dispose them or bring them home. So some Africans found those stockpiles and began selling them. Arming clans with the weaponry to oppress and enslave the innocent. We're also the ones buying the blood diamonds that fund clan wars and genocide. The irony is that in Black America, the status symbol of success (diamonds) is furthering the slavery of Africans.

I'm not saying we're responsible for their well-being or even obligated to help. But the only way this is going to change is with education and empowerment of third world countries. And sitting around at home whining about the price of oil, is a slap to the face of human morality when there are humans just like us dying every day. Could you explain to their faces why you didn't care? Could you really make that justification and have them understand? Why it's more important to spend money to fight the Democrat vs Republican war than it is to a stop their children from dying? Their salvation is in their hands... but most have never even been told that. Many don't even understand the idea of "all men are created equal."

Our sin isn't that we're killing them. It's that we're indifferent. Desensitized to real problems. I really think television and the entertainment industry has done a huge deal of damage to our sense of morality and empathy. (And to clarify, I'm against censorship.)

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OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Quote:

There are enough starving people in Africa. They should stop reproducing and give the world a chance to sustain them.

Fair enough, but in that case you need to kick out of there the Christian chuch and missionaires. They're the root of problem with their "no-anticoncepcy" policy. Let's see, people are going to have sex anyway, by not giving them condoms they'll produce more offspring or spread AIDS and other diaseases.

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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Catholics and Christians are not synonyms!

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Chris Katko said:

The irony is that in Black America, the status symbol of success (diamonds) is furthering the slavery of Africans.

Diamonds are a status symbol for all Americans (and Canadians, and probably most of the developed world), not just for black Americans. ::)

Chris Katko said:

Could you explain to their faces why you didn't care? Could you really make that justification and have them understand?

Give them a presumably loaded gun, show them USD$5M in a napsack, and sincerely tell them all they have to do to have the money is blow [insert_other_guy_in_room]'s head off (there may be some that wouldn't pull it, but I bet there would be a lot that would, especially if their lives are really hard -- I expect the same from most of humanity). When they hear the clicking sound of an empty action, tell them that's why I don't care enough to dedicate my life to bettering theirs. Like them, I'm human. It's a bitch, isn't it? All the more reason to make fewer of us so fewer people have to suffer. ::)

The world has limited resources. It isn't currently possible for everybody on Earth to be wealthy. I think the only way that could possibly happen is for the entire human population to be automated with computers (and we'll probably have to expand out into space). Even then, some retarded humanitarian will probably decide that robots have a right to have feelings, would implement AI capable of feeling, the robots would decide they don't enjoy being our slaves, and would make us their slaves instead. And we'd be back at square one.

OICW said:

Fair enough, but in that case you need to kick out of there the Christian chuch and missionaires. They're the root of problem with their "no-anticoncepcy" policy. Let's see, people are going to have sex anyway, by not giving them condoms they'll produce more offspring or spread AIDS and other diaseases.

I have personal experience with Christians being problematic... :P No argument here.

That said, the world isn't responsible for supplying Africa with condoms any more than it is for feeding their starving children. If you can't afford to sustain a child and can't afford contraception then you shouldn't be having sex. >:( I realize that you can't very well expect an entire nation to stop fucking, but that same damn nation should realize that the rest of the world isn't going to pay for it.

You know what's cheaper than a lifetime of food, water, clothing, education, and condoms? A bullet. If we all donate one bullet to Africa we can solve this problem quickly and cost effectively... :-X

[Absolutely kidding about the bullet!]

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Quote:

Catholics and Christians are not synonyms!

Some catholics disagree.
:P

Quote:

I realize that you can't very well expect an entire nation to stop fucking, but that same damn nation should realize that the rest of the world isn't going to pay for it.

If we're talking about Africa, it isn't a nation.
Secondly, the tragic thing about Africa isn't that there isn't enough food (IIRC), it's that food doesn't arrive where it's needed.
Third, if there's an overpopulation problem anywhere, it's in Asia, not Africa.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Evert said:

Some catholics disagree.

Oh, for sure, some Catholics think they are the only Christians of the world, but that doesn't make them right.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Evert said:

If we're talking about Africa, it isn't a nation.

I said nation because I'm extremely tired today... :-X

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

I think it's reasonable to assume that any physical responses to social interaction are triggered by the brain and therefore not uncontrollable.

You're right, I have to think to keep my heart beating.

Quote:

Read my post again, it was a good one.

I disagree.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Darizel
Member #10,585
January 2009
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bamccaig said:

[quote Evert][quote bamccaig]I realize that you can't very well expect an entire nation...

If we're talking about Africa, it isn't a nation.
</quote>
I said nation because I'm extremely tired today... :-X
</quote>
Sarah Palin agrees with you, bamccaig ::):P;)

Anyway, there are 54 countries in Africa, I think, if you count Western Sahara, which is, technically, party of Morocco. Some are worse off than others. Zimbabwe's probably the worst, with an annual inflation of 89 sextillion percent (89,700,000,000,000,000,000,000%) You blink, and the prices have already doubled. The paper they print money on is worth more than the money it represents.

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Your heart is controlled by your brain/autonomic nervous system. According to the logic given earlier, I MUST be able to control it.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Thomas Fjellstrom said:

Your heart is controlled by your brain/autonomic nervous system. According to the logic given earlier, I MUST be able to control it.

Actually, IIRC, the brain isn't responsible for the heartbeat. According to Wikipedia...

Cardiac cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia said:

The cardiac cycle is co-ordinated by a series of electrical impulses that are produced by specialized heart cells found within the sino-atrial node and the atrioventricular node.

.
.
.

Cardiac muscle has automaticity, which means that it is self-exciting. This is in contrast with skeletal muscle, which requires either conscious or reflex nervous stimuli for excitation. The heart's rhythmic contractions occur spontaneously, although the rate of contraction can be changed by nervous or hormonal influences, exercise and emotions.

- Source

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Oh fine, there are plenty of other autonomic systems that your conscious brain does NOT control. Some physical reactions to stimuli can become "Autonomic Reactions", as in they happen without your control. Might be able to lessen them a little after years of work, but thats about it. You'd be lucky to be able to train away entire enshrined reactions like that.

For instance, I go to a public place, my heart races. That is not something I control willingly. I can try to calm down by breathing slowly and ignoring my environment for a bit, but thats it, I can't make it magically go away. I've been working for years to get my social phobia to a "manageable" level. It will never likely go completely away. Certain things just get programmed into your brain, and those connections will never "re learn" ever again, you're stuck with them (or you can make yourself brain damaged), all you can do is "manage" the symptoms.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I think it's pretty clear that your heart racing in social environments is a mental reaction, not a physical one. I'm sure we could prove it by drugging you and wheeling you into a public place. If it was purely physical then it should happen regardless of whether you are fully conscious/sober or not.

I can sympathize with you because I'm often very uncomfortable in social situations as well and quite often my heart does race like that. When I'm anywhere social I feel like everybody's looking at me and I feel awkward already so then it's like everybody's watching me be awkward. :P I don't consider it my fault and I also don't consider it uncontrollable. It's something that I could learn not to do with the right guidance (<cough>walkthrough</cough>) and/or friends (i.e., not Christians).

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

If it was purely physical then it should happen regardless of whether you are fully conscious/sober or not.

::) I'm sure theres some "internet argument lingo" for that type of argument that I don't know...

I'm pretty sure my heart racing is a physical reaction. Now imagining my heart was racing, THAT would be a mental reaction.

Quote:

It's something that I could learn not to do with the right guidance

I doubt it. At least if we're talking about the same thing. If we are, its not something you can STOP from happening. But it is something you can manage and deal with as it happens (reduce the effects it may have on you)*. Thats not the same thing as STOPPING it from happening all together.

edit:

*indeed, I used to get hives in high school if I came late. Many days I couldn't walk inside the building without a breakout :o These days I don't have such a large urge to run away as I used to. usually any how.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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Personally, I find it difficult to feel responsible in any way when they continue to reproduce with nothing to actually sustain themselves. I have no food, no water, no way to actually survive on my own. What should I do about this? Why, create another mouth to feed, of course!

Africa has a LOT of problems, and the direct causes are hard to locate, just like nobody seems to know a proper cure. However, I think it's fairly certain that things weren't as bad before colonization started.
The fact that large parts of Africa are starving isn't so much a problem of over-population (Western Europe has a far higher population density, yet it contains some of the richest countries in the world). One problem is that European colonists replaced traditional farming techniques and products (which fit perfectly well into the existing environment) with European techniques, which produce agricultural goods that are interesting on a world scale, but are devastating for local ecosystems. Similar things go for lifestyle; in many African areas, a nomadic lifestyle is far better suited to the environment than the so-called civilized agricultural settlements. Another interesting fact is that Africa had a fairly established political map before the Europeans arrived, where ethnic and social groups all had their territories (not without conflicts obviously, but things were kind of sorted out). When Africa was divided up between the colonial powers, little respect was paid for existing structures; basically, the conquerors drew some lines on the map and decided what belonged to whom. In many cases, those lines cut straight through ancient territories, artificially splitting up ethnic and social groups, and putting others into one country that weren't such a good match. The fact that to the Europeans, all Africans were more or less the same 'inferior' breed didn't help much either.
Not to speak of the massive drain of natural and human resources that took place over quite some time, and the often systematic destruction of local culture.
When the various African countries finally, one by one, gained independence from their former colonists, they were left with a power vacuum and little established structure; they were left to invent a political system by themselves, based on thin air, with little resources left and virtually no help from their former rulers. Some were more successful than others.

The 'one more mouth to feed' argument makes a lot more sense if you look at it from a different angle. Imagine a world where there is no social security whatsoever: when you are too old to work, the only thing you can fall back on is your children. The health care system is bad, and many children don't make adulthood. More children will also yield social status, which in turn makes it easier to gain all sorts of advantages. If that isn't enough for you, read up on the Tragedy of the Commons, a though experiment that shows nicely how the best strategy for an individual in a situation where limited resources are shared and freely accessible is one that will lead to a collapse of the commonwealth. (As a side note, and feel free to call me a communist, a dirty one if you like, the Tragedy of the Commons can also be applied to show that a free market economy, where basically all natural resources are unregulated, will eventually collapse.)
It's not that Africans don't know that having unprotected sex makes you pregnant. It's not that they don't know how to use condoms, and the Catholic church (however despicable their teachings) is only an additional factor in many cases. Most Africans that have many children do so because they choose to.

Another thought: It appears that 20% of the world's population consume 80% of the available resources, while the other 80% are left with 20%. In other words, if the average poor person holds 2.5 "shares" (20/8)in the world's resources, then the rich average at 40 (80/2).
This implies a number of things:

  • if we could get rid of the richest 20% of the world's population, virtually all environmental problems we are facing would probably go away, because mankind's overall ecological footprint would be reduced by 80%

  • if we could get the richest 20% to reduce their living standards to those of the rest, we would reduce the footprint by 75% - without getting rid of anybody

  • if we could get the richest 20% to lower their living standards by 75% (to 10 shares), we could double the living standard of the poorer 80% (to 5 shares) and still achieve a footprint reduction of 40% (the 80% usage reduces to 20%, the 20% usage increases to 40%, adding up to 60%), probably still enough to keep mankind around for a while

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axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

So communism is responsible for the failure of a most capitalistic government in the world? how come? can anyone explain this? it is not rational, even a little bit...

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Fair enough, but in that case you need to kick out of there the Christian chuch and missionaires.

If you think the "Christian church" (as if to say it's some sort of conglomerate super entity with a distinct leader) is the problem. There's really no way we can discuss this. You've already decided in your head what the truth is without even seeing it.

Quote:

It isn't currently possible for everybody on Earth to be wealthy.

Wealthy? I said dying of starvation and disease--not wealth as if to imply luxury. You're really projecting yourself into this discussion.

Quote:

I have personal experience with Christians being problematic...

Personal experience is a great way to make decisions about 2 billion independently thinking people.

The point is that no, we aren't "responsible" in any legal sense. (I never said it was.) But moral? That's a much harder argument to brush off. The truth is, we're all very blessed and fortunate. And if you want to spend all your time and money on yourself--that's fine. But don't even try and tell me that isn't selfish. Those who have the power and means, are more responsible than those who don't. People want "the rich" to save the world, but when I say we (the middle class) could be doing it right now, people always get angry because it means they might be wrong. That the big evil "rich people" aren't the problem... but us. It's the same reason democracy in America has become an oligarchy. The middle class don't think it's their responsibility--but they'll whine all day about it. As if we, as a nation, don't have the power to remove every congress person from office tomorrow.

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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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