... or why can't we all just get along?
We all have a lot in common. Our having congregated to this or any other forum outlines our lowest common denominator, with still more existing elsewhere, beyond the obvious... and yet, we quibble. We hurt each other's feelings and drive one another insane.
... partially, at least. It's not really that bad. Still, I can't help but wonder why. Yes, we are at times more callous than would be proper. Yes, we are also overly sensitive. We are tinkerers of machines not by mere coincidence but because certain parts of who we are drew us to where we are today. Perhaps we experience joy in our machine counterparts for their relative simplicity. Input yields output. They do our bidding.
And perhaps years of such thinking, or even just the ability to perform such thinking, renders aspects of humanity (both in ourselves and in others) outside our fields of vision. I don't know. I have no answers. I only ponder.
Luigi wants to touch your boobies.
]]>Ya know, I was thinking about this yesterday, too.
I think the nature of our quibbility mostly stems from the nuances of text-based communication. It's very easy to inject emotion or tone in text that isn't there; typically when reading paragraphs in short bursts that don't have enough time to convey voice. When you combine that with criticism and overly sensitive personalities (I am one of those personalities), it can become quite a tentacled-beast.
Luigi wants to touch your boobies.
keepin' it real.
]]>Luigi wants to touch your boobies.
Go right ahead
]]>I don't really see where the anger comes in. I mean, does anybody even remember the poop throwing contests between X-G, Miran, and 23yrold3yrold we used to have ALL THE TIME?
This place used to be far more aggressive, and Reddit and Slashdot are still much more angry.
]]>We're all getting older and touchier
]]>Matthew would not allow anybody to get out of hand. We now teach children that they're all awesome, even if they're stupid. Perhaps it is the "feminist" shift in society spilling into the minds of certain members and onto the boards. People are too sensitive these days. I mean, a woman makes a shirt for a man that he wears to work on a day that he happens to be on camera and suddenly there's a shitstorm of pussies crying about sexism. You know what, that kind of thing makes me think we need to bring back the backhand.
The last example that I recall of somebody whining because their feelings had been hurt was Aaron Bolyard. And he's more than happy to be blunt and offensive with other people, but his ego is quick to bruise. I suggest he puts a fresh pad in his panties and sucks it up. He seems very sensitive about the importance of game programming to the world. And while video games are fucking awesome and very important in that aspect, the skills are typically very specialized and don't necessarily map to the rest of software very well at all. Point is, everybody has merit, and if he wants to be respected he should either show respect to other people or argue his points with integrity and persistence. If it's offensive for somebody to question what you say then you aren't actually discussing anything and you can go fuck yourself.
I digress. I'm too goddamn tired to deal with all of the stupid these days. Man the fuck up. Or shut the fuck up. Or don't. I'm not your god.
]]>The last example that I recall of somebody whining because their feelings had been hurt was Aaron Bolyard. And he's more than happy to be blunt and offensive with other people, but his ego is quick to bruise. I suggest he puts a fresh pad in his panties and sucks it up. He seems very sensitive about the importance of game programming to the world. And while video games are fucking awesome and very important in that aspect, the skills are typically very specialized and don't necessarily map to the rest of software very well at all. Point is, everybody has merit, and if he wants to be respected he should either show respect to other people or argue his points with integrity and persistence. If it's offensive for somebody to question what you say then you aren't actually discussing anything and you can go fuck yourself.
I have no words.
]]>bamccaig - this is exactly the kind of insensitive hostililty the rest of us are sick of, and you are the one causing it in many of the cases. We're all glad you're a fucking super self righteous know it all atheist and all but that doesn't give you the right to go around bashing everybody elses opinion and feelings. You are way more zealous than any of the rest of us here. What's up with that? Insecure much? Feel the need to bring everybody else down to your level so we can share in your misery? Stop being such an obtuse wanker already or GTFO. Seriously.
]]>I have no words.
Me either. He likes to call me a communist dictator a-like because i asked him to stop being such an ass in #allegro. He did get a lot better, but I still have to put up with whats left till he actually does something that breaks the channel rules.
Please don't let one or two toxic people drive you away
]]>I don't think Aaron's going anywhere. He has some good friends here and if he's anything like me, he is still laughing at bambams's post.
bambams's post made me lawl. Basically, as soon as I read that "teaching children they're awesome even if they're stupid" is a form of feminism, I knew the whole post was going to be hilarious.
On a more serious note, a few years ago I went through something possibly similar to the alluded-to incident. I teased people a bit at work and then didn't want to be teased back. Granted it was teasing, not hostility, and the person I was teasing seemed to understand it as such; but it goes to show that everyone can have double standards sometimes and as long as we recognise it when necessary and work on it, it's no big deal. Of course this may be completely irrelevant anyway as I have no idea what the incident was.
]]>bambam's post made me lawl. Basically, as soon as I read that "teaching children they're awesome even if they're stupid" is a form of feminism, I knew the whole post was going to be hilarious.
This is precisely why bambam gets away with this shit. He spouts misogynistic overzealous vitriol and you guys laugh at it and find it funny. Instead of coddling him you should be telling him where to get the fuck off.
]]>We're all getting older and touchier
Or in your case older and fatter.
Just because I insult Tomasu all day in IRC doesn't mean I'm a bad person!
]]>coddling him
On the contrary, I think he feels very strongly and it is quite the insult to find the whole thing ridiculous enough to laugh at. Beyond that, not knowing what the incident was, I shouldn't comment - but what he describes of Aaron does seem out of character from what I know.
]]>People think his behavior is harmless, but people have actively avoided this site and Allegro in general because of him, and people like him. I'd prefer if we could all act more civilized, but I have no actual say here. soooo...
]]>Honestly nothing bambams does really grinds me, except when some of my own ideas are challenged on a sincere level which people rarely do. On that note, I find that while I had plenty to be offended at 15 years ago in #allegro on IRC, I rarely do so now and I would dare argue the maturity of the whole community is gone up. If we all tolerate disruptions more readily, I'd like to think it's because of that.
Now, speaking of disruption.... I'm thinking KimmoA, aj^ after he became zap0, or raf256...
]]>I'm not leaving because of one humbug.
Beyond that, not knowing what the incident was, I shouldn't comment - but what he describes of Aaron does seem out of character from what I know.
I made a badly phrased comment on the competency matrix thread:
In all honesty, I don't know why I bother posting anywhere. I either am ignored or someone just discredits me. Oh well.
It wasn't clear I was not just referring to 'this forum,' but posting in general on the internet. On other communities (i.e., ones I rarely post on anymore due to community shifts), people tend to be stuck up or abrasive. Sometimes it feels like this community is heading that way (due to stagnation or whatever).
For a relatively recent example, I once made a detailed explanation of a RuneScape boss monster (kills per hour, general profit per hour, that kind of stuff) on Reddit, was pretty badly downvoted before making a separate post, and even then was met with some abrasive/rude comments. There's plenty more examples. I've learnt to brush it off. It's the internet, after all.
]]>It wasn't clear I was not just referring to 'this forum,' but posting in general on the internet. On other communities (i.e., ones I rarely post on anymore due to community shifts), people tend to be stuck up or abrasive.
Yeah, the internet sucks.
Sometimes it feels like this community is heading that way (due to stagnation or whatever).
The worst people used to be worse. Now we just have much fewer of those people, I guess they don't get much fun out of trolling here anymore.
Reddit is basically the new 4chan. if you expected anything good out of it, I think you were mistaken
]]>People tend to be a lot more civil when their identity is known. For example, your average FB news feed will be filled with "OMG you're so awesome, we love you, we believe in you, etc". But your average forum post will be a lot less civilized. This is probably one of the reasons Google integrated G+ into You Tube's comment system (among many, many other reasons). Because comments made from people's G+ accounts are generally a little more civilized because it links back to your real identity in some way.
Therefore, at the cost of anonymity, ML could enforce Facebook login, and require the permission to post to your timeline. Using a fork of the al_mind_control_addon we detect posts and threads that are unacceptable and automatically post to the person's timeline for accountability.
That would probably cause members to think twice about what they post as it could have consequences outside of a.cc.
Aaron is one of my favorite a.cc members, and his projects fascinate me. We can't afford to lose members like him here; keeping the spirit of intense hobby programming alive is vital to the a.cc community IMO.
Also in my opinion, I find Bam's comment a form of cyberbullying, and I think that's fucked up. It is not constructive, it's just plain mean.
a.cc for me has long been a community that I enjoy being part of, and I am all for freedom of expression, but blatantly insulting someone is wrong.
]]>Reddit actually looks very civilised whenever I read comments there. People make witty puns and stuff and play off each other. Maybe I've been lucky in the parts I've been to. I've never posted anything though.
Although, when I look at your RuneScape thread, I notice that there are lots of short, harmless comments and then one long, rude comment. At least you know that it's only one person and that the rest of us (and them) can also see what that person is like.
As for the competency matrix thread: I call Dunning-Kruger on certain reactions there, without mentioning any names
Regarding bambams's comment about Aaron, I think:
If any of the comment is valid, then citations are needed. Give us the information so we can decide whether we agree with your judgements, or we can make our own.
Always try constructive feedback before destructive. The stuff in this thread was pretty destructive.
In certain cases, consider whether your own perception is being affected by stress or tiredness and actually there isn't a problem with anyone else. We all have this.
If mistakes are made that you don't realise until some time afterwards, come back and say sorry - and mean it - and work on what caused it and make sure it doesn't happen again. Again, we all have this, and it's fine as long as you do what I just said.
If it's really true that this drives others away, then it needs addressing. I'm a little dubious about whether that's true though. All the people who might be driven away by this thread for example can also see all the other posts in this thread, so they know that we're generally cohesive and supportive and see through rubbish.
]]>What Thomas does is basically hypocritical. He's happy to troll, he's happy to discuss off-topic and off-color topics in #allegro (and even here), but anything that I say is disallowed somehow. He's openly hostile and threatening with his chanop privileges, which is pretty much against the rules of freenode in itself. He just cannot handle the responsibility of admin (having been the admin of Counter-Strike servers I realize that it is a huge burden, and it's hard to keep personal feelings out of it).
As for me being the main source of issues here I don't think that's true. Honestly, I've been less and less active here in the past few years. I've been busy with work. I just haven't had as much time to post. I was much more active and much more aggressive in the past and it never hurt participation rates. Some of my most controversial posts and threads have been within the most active and spirited discussions. Many members have expressed appreciation for my participation and defended me against undeserved pitchforking. Interestingly enough, traffic here has died down quite a lot too as myself and several other "controversial" members become less active. It probably has more to do with others than me, but that's sort of the point. It's not necessarily because of the controversial ones. I guess the rest of you left have nothing interesting to say.
There used to be quite a lot more abrasive conversation. There are many respected members that have left this community that would participate in spicing things up. And that doesn't mean trolling. If everybody agrees on a topic there's no point discussing it. And I think that's what's happening. The more free speech and open debate is chased away from here, even if only by the community members and not by the mods, the more the temperature rises and the less friendly of a place it truly becomes. You think you're protecting people, but what you're really doing is making the place unwelcoming.
There used to be a live community here. Part of it moved on due to growing pains and technological advances, but I think that many were chased off by the weakening community. It saddens me to think of all of the valuable people that we've lost over the years. Many of them controversial at times. Now people are so over-sensitized here that the slightest thing will send somebody into a crying fit. ZOMG, they're going to leave the boards and everybody has to jump to their rescue so they don't leave! There's nothing wrong with sympathy, but if their complaints are legitimate then there are moderators to step in (though I imagine they may be inactive too for the same reasons).
New members join and right away they're warned about the abuses they'll suffer! True debates get heated, and true debates are sensitive. That's exactly what you want in the off-topic board. If you don't want to be involved in that then stick to the on-topic boards. Those have always been less active on this site, but that's because there's only so much you can do in a programming forum. The real work happens off board, without the distractions. On board it's hard to align experience levels and interests so that threads are really active. There used to be the occasional interesting thread in the programming forum too, but they were mostly subjective topics still. They were controversial. I'm sure there still are interesting threads in the on-topic boards, but I think they often move into non-beginner topics. Shaders and GL and blah blah blah. It's almost off-topic for Allegro. It's not unwelcome at all, but if that's all there is then I think it leaves a lot of people out. Especially from the target audience for Allegro.
I don't see too many truly beginner threads anymore. C and C++ are challenging languages. Either we've gotten good at offering resources, newbies have gotten good at searching (yeah, right), or there just aren't any real newbies flowing in.
I don't know where Aaron was coming from. Obviously I got the impression that it was triggered mostly from an external site, but nothing that I saw discussed in the applicable thread (or others I've read recently) suggests that he was being misunderstood or taken out of context. He challenged ideas and people challenged him back. That's healthy. If that's all he has to complain about then I think he's got his own personal issues to deal with. That's no problem. We're happy to help him with those if he so choses. Doesn't mean everybody is going to hold his hand in the process. Certainly that's not the treatment that I get.
I've often been confronted, had entire groups of people siding against me, and occasionally I've even learned from the experience. I think the opposite has happened once in a while too. Sometimes it's exactly what you asked for, even if you didn't know it. Sometimes there are just misunderstandings, or people have bad days, etc. Life goes on. I've personally been through far worse than what I have seen lately. I think that collectively it has made me a better person, even if it wasn't always deserved. And generally people will come to your defense. It used to be that we wouldn't ask people to GTFO. We'd discuss the merits of their ideas and try to come to a logical conclusion. It seems those days are gone. Which probably also contributes to making this a hostile environment for technologists. If logic doesn't rule the day then how are we supposed to live here?
Meh. Just the ramblings of a tired, drunk, barely-active "veteran"[1].
He's happy to troll, he's happy to discuss off-topic and off-color topics in #allegro (and even here), but anything that I say is disallowed somehow.
You talk all the darn time, and you haven't gotten a single warning in ages. Mostly because you actually seem to be acting more civilized lately.
If I was the person you think I am, I'd have banned you long ago.
]]>Go and sleep.
When you're sober, re-read what you wrote to Aaron.
When you cringe, then that's a step in the right direction.
]]>There used to be quite a lot more abrasive conversation.
Does that make it appropriate? Or welcoming? No.
There are many respected members that have left this community that would participate in spicing things up. And that doesn't mean trolling. If everybody agrees on a topic there's no point discussing it. And I think that's what's happening.
Disagreeing is not the issue. Being an offensive jerk towards other members of the forum is disrespectful and does not serve the community's best interest.
The more free speech and open debate is chased away from here, even if only by the community members and not by the mods, the more the temperature rises and the less friendly of a place it truly becomes. You think you're protecting people, but what you're really doing is making the place unwelcoming.
What you consider free speech and open debate I consider to be veiled insults and simply a way for you to feel important. There's a way to disagree without being a prick about it.
There used to be a live community here. Part of it moved on due to growing pains and technological advances, but I think that many were chased off by the weakening community. It saddens me to think of all of the valuable people that we've lost over the years. Many of them controversial at times.
Is that we allow certain people (ahem) to dominate these forums with their idiocy. I'm deleting my link to the forums from my speed dial again. Good luck with all your bugs.
What is weakening the community is hostility towards its members from within, and a lot of it comes from you bam.
TrentG left exactly because of this, and NiteHackr has been quiet now since he said he was thinking about leaving too.
Now people are so over-sensitized here that the slightest thing will send somebody into a crying fit. ZOMG, they're going to leave the boards and everybody has to jump to their rescue so they don't leave! There's nothing wrong with sympathy, but if their complaints are legitimate then there are moderators to step in (though I imagine they may be inactive too for the same reasons).
We have to decide as a community who we want to feel welcome, and who we don't. I'd much rather have the people back that you've offended over the years than have someone who can only tear down other's viewpoints. The few women that were here have all disappeared, and more than likely because they didn't feel especially welcome. Yes, there are female programmers out there. They exist. Trust me I've seen them.
And speaking of Mods, I don't know if a.cc even has any active Mods anymore. Mr. Kalliokoski has been AWOL for a while now, and I never see anybody else step in.
Have you ever heard of constructive criticism? Instead of bashing people for being sensitive we should encourage people's growth and make them feel welcome here. As long as they're not intentionally trying to bring people down.
It only takes one person to poison a well and make a whole community sick.
]]>If I was the person you think I am, I'd have banned you long ago.
You can't because you'd have to defend yourself to the freenode network and the topics you permit to be discussed from everybody else and even actively participate in. #allegro is not at all a strict channel. We discuss things all the time. And honestly that would be fine. The only reason you get butt-hurt is because certain people with bias have chosen to take a strong stance against my arguments and in a few cases have chosen to avoid the channel as a result. For the most part, they weren't very active regardless. And for the most part, I've gotten along with them just fine until sensitive topics are brought up, usually by others, and I have every right to challenge their ideas. If they don't want to talk about them then they shouldn't bring them up. The thing is, they very much want to spread their ideas, and just want me to not be allowed to spread mine. They can't defeat my ideas in debate. They can only run away from the debate. I think that says a lot. If nothing else it says that the topic is open to debate.
Go and sleep.
When you're sober, re-read what you wrote to Aaron.
Surely we've learned by now that my ideas are rarely affected by exhaustion or intoxication and that I compose myself fairly well while both tired and drunk (and neither). That doesn't mean that people don't find myself controversial while tired and under the influence of alcohol, but that they typically find me equally controversial while rested and sober.
For the most part, all I have said regarding Aaron is that I don't think that he has any reason to feel unwelcome or unappreciated. I wrapped it in a strategic envelope of off-color humor (I think). As usual, I wish no ill will upon Aaron. He is obviously a well respected member of this community, and I get the impression that he's a well accomplished [aspiring?] game programmer. I think that he has a communication imbalance between abrasiveness and sensitivity, but that's nothing that can't be improved upon. I think particularly that his complaints about online posts being unappreciated are invalid. Either he's posting in the wrong channels[1], or what he's saying isn't as valuable as he thinks. I don't know because I haven't been very active lately. It's probably not a binary value. I've predominantly seen off-topic posts in the past few days from him and that's all that I'm responding to.
You can't because you'd have to defend yourself to the freenode network and the topics you permit to be discussed from everybody else and even actively participate in
Bullshit. As a channel op, you have full control to ban rude, offensive, sexist, ass-hats all you want.
You were out of line on many occasions. People were not happy. I asked you to stop. That is my job as a channel op. If this were other channels, you'd have been perm banned a LONG time ago.
]]>The only reason you get butt-hurt is because certain people with bias have chosen to take a strong stance against my arguments and in a few cases have chosen to avoid the channel as a result. For the most part, they weren't very active regardless. And for the most part, I've gotten along with them just fine until sensitive topics are brought up, usually by others
I have every right to challenge their ideas.
Why does everything have to be a confrontation with you? You try to get under people's skin on purpose, and that's not part of what it means to be a responsible forum member. If someone believes in God you try to tear them down. If someone believes in proprietary software you call them the Anti-FLOSS. If a women dresses attractively you say its her own fault if she gets raped. This and all the rest of the bullshit that comes out of your mouth makes people feel unwelcome here.
We don't have problems with you disagreeing or with you having a different viewpoint. It's that you try to brow beat everyone else into believing what you believe and that's not right and not healthy for the community.
If they don't want to talk about them then they shouldn't bring them up. The thing is, they very much want to spread their ideas, and just want me to not be allowed to spread mine. They can't defeat my ideas in debate. They can only run away from the debate. I think that says a lot. If nothing else it says that the topic is open to debate.
Have you learned nothing from XKCD?
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...responsible forum member.
If someone believes in God you try to tear them down.
If someone spreads their ideas about a magician in the sky as an absolute truth then I challenge it. I don't often start the debate. I'm provoked to. It doesn't always start here, but that doesn't mean that I'm not being provoked. The point is, lots of people enjoy the debate, and everyone is welcome to stay out of it. If you don't want to participate then don't. That doesn't give you the right to stop the debate.
If someone believes in proprietary software you call them the Anti-FLOSS.
I'm not sure that I've ever called someone "anti-FLOSS". Certainly when the merits of proprietary software are brought up I will challenge them because I believe people to generally be misguided on the subject. It is a topic that most people don't understand well, and that even academia evidently doesn't understand well. It is very open to debate. Again, feel free to participate or not.
If a women dresses attractively you say its her own fault if she gets raped.
I'm not sure that I've ever said that it's her fault. I've said that I don't have sympathy if she's dressing provocatively. If she attracts that attention and doesn't take necessary precautions to defend herself against risks then she has nobody else to blame. The topic has been discussed elsewhere, and I'm be happy to start any of these topics again if you like, but I suspect that you'd rather not so perhaps you should not put words into my mouth.
This and all the rest of the bullshit that comes out of your mouth makes people feel unwelcome here.
According to whom? What data do you have to support this claim? Have you conducted a peer reviewed poll of visitors and past members?
Have you learned nothing from XKCD?
I've learned many things, including that I seem to have a few things in common with the author.
]]>If she attracts that attention and doesn't take necessary precautions to defend herself against risks then she has nobody else to blame
That is saying its her fault. full stop.
]]>While I appreciate your attempt at humor, it doesn't change the fact that there are behaviours we should and should not encourage here.
If someone spreads their ideas about a magician in the sky as an absolute truth then I challenge it. I don't often start the debate. I'm provoked to. It doesn't always start here, but that doesn't mean that I'm not being provoked.
And how many times have you shoved your precious FSM in somebody elses face and told them their beliefs are a lie? You are just as much to blame for pushing your opinions on others as you feel they have done to you. Does mentioning the word God upset you? So sorry. Let people believe what they want to and stop trying to push your own beliefs onto others.
The point is, lots of people enjoy the debate, and everyone is welcome to stay out of it. If you don't want to participate then don't. That doesn't give you the right to stop the debate.
Yet you put forth your own opinion as an absolute truth as well. You are so caught up in proving yourself right that no one elses opinion matters. Saying that people can just 'stay out of it' implies they should tolerate your behaviour regardless of how it affects them. While true to a certain degree, you take everything way too far, and saying we should just 'stay out of it' is just another aspect of how unwelcome you make people here feel. Saying we don't have a right to stop the debate implies that anything goes, and that is something we shouldn't put up with. There are limits to what is considered debate, and what is just trying to tear other people down.
This and all the rest of the that comes out of your mouth makes people feel unwelcome here.
According to whom? What data do you have to support this claim? Have you conducted a peer reviewed poll of visitors and past members?
Trent Gamblin left a.cc because of you. NiteHackr may have left a.cc because of your behaviour as well. That's two strikes already. Would you like me to research your posts further and prove just how antagonistic and beligerent that you are? I don't think its necessary since the rest of the members of this forum have already been witness to your confrontational behaviour during the course of your stay here at a.cc. And it appears you have been alienating #allegro members as well. You're just winning friends left and right it seems. There is such a thing as having some tact and sensitivity to other's viewpoints. You seem to have neither. You also seem to think the point of a forum is to win arguments and be right about everything. Admit you don't know everything for once, and turn down the zealotry a few notches. K? Thanks.
]]>While I appreciate your attempt at humor, it doesn't change the fact that there are behaviours we should and should not encourage here.
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And how many times have you shoved your precious FSM in somebody elses face and told them their beliefs are a lie? You are just as much to blame for pushing your opinions on others as you feel they have done to you.
I don't at all vilify the spreading of ideas. I think that's great! I vilify spreading of nonsensical ideas on the merit of "faith". There is no real evidence for God, and that is pretty much well established definition. It seems that believers aren't very good at understanding their own belief system because they choose to spread the idea as fact.
FSM is a well known joke. Nobody with an ounce of intelligence believes in a "flying spaghetti monster".. As I understand the folklore, it was invented to discredit Christian beliefs in a state of the USA that was very likely to teach public school students Christian beliefs as a science based on complete bullshit. The FSM was invented with the same exact arguments that are used to "prove" the Christian God's existence as a desperate attempt to break through the brainwashed minds of the politicians ruling on the matter. When faced with an equally absurd notion without evidence they were forced to think about what gave their beliefs merit and that were lacking in the FSM idea. They came to the only reasonable conclusion that there was no real difference. They realized that their beliefs were not scientific.
Does mentioning the word God upset you? So sorry. Let people believe what they want to and stop trying to push your own beliefs onto others.
It doesn't bother me at all what other people believe. What bothers me is wrongly representing your beliefs as factual, absolute truths, indisputable, etc. I rather enjoy the debate. I'd be glad to have one again if you'd like. Go for it. I can't promise that I have the time to dedicate to a fully fledged one, but you just might inspire and fuel some thoroughly enjoyable late nights. It has been a while.
As a rule, if you let people believe in what they want to then all is well. If you start involving your nonsense beliefs where they have no place then you're provoking a fight that neither of us can win, but I come out of looking smarter and you come out of quitting. Or just looking like an idiot if you keep trying indefinitely.
Yet you put forth your own opinion as an absolute truth as well.
You're completely wrong. When I'm not confident in the supporting evidence for an idea I am completely open to being wrong and discuss the matter as such. When the evidence supports my idea I present it as a truth according to evidence. Of course, science isn't really about absolute truths. It cannot be. I think only mathematics can hold such truth, and even then it seems we cannot tie all of the knots into neat little bows.
When I do put forth my ideas as absolute truths I do my best to defend them with evidence (or in the case of my idea being that of a disbelieve in an idea, with a lack of evidence). It's always open to debate. I'm rather interested in the truths so I prefer for lively debate. Not playing or not playing fair spoils any chance of gaining anything (other than a laugh).
Trent Gamblin left a.cc because of you.
Trent Gamblin left A.cc because he is very strong willed and refused to admit defeat in hopeless arguments. I have no beef with him short of him having a beef with me. I've already discussed this matter with him. I suppose he has his own reasons for being unwilling to put up with my presence, but I am not the only reason that he avoids community channels.
NiteHackr may have left a.cc because of your behaviour as well.
As I recall, NiteHackr is another example of a religious zealot that refuses to put up with differing beliefs. He effectively ragequit because of religious debate, if I'm not mixing him up with other people. Again, debate that he could choose to avoid. Apparently he can only tolerate Christian communities. That is his right. Again, it has little to do with me, other than perhaps myself being one of his persistent challengers.
That's two strikes already.
According to whom? I have mostly considered Matthew fair. In some cases I have felt that he has let emotion cloud judgement, but moderation is a very difficult responsibility so there's room for error. I don't think that he'd tolerate me if he felt that I was being unreasonable.
Would you like me to research your posts further and prove just how antagonistic and beligerent that you are?
Please do.
I don't think its necessary since the rest of the members of this forum have already been witness to your confrontational behaviour during the course of your stay here at a.cc.
According to whom? Where is your data? What is your source? How was it collected?
And it appears you have been alienating #allegro members as well.
According to whom? You seem to be picking and choosing what fits your bias.
There is such a thing as having some tact and sensitivity to other's viewpoints. You seem to have neither. You also seem to think the point of a forum is to win arguments and be right about everything. Admit you don't know everything for once, and turn down the zealotry a few notches.
I don't know everything, and several members (many inactive) have proven that over the years. I have not hesitated to admit defeat when the occurrence has clearly taken place. I've had my ego severely bruised over the years, and I've learned from the experience. I've also learned who can and cannot handle a discussion. That is what a "forum" is for. It's a discussion board. A place to discuss things. When the topic is factual there is little room for debate. When it's subjective there is only room for debate. There's little point participating if you aren't trying to learn, and nobody learns anything if they don't challenge the ideas that they disagree with and defend the ideas that they do agree with. That's what this is for. It just so happens that one of the greatest, most friendly online communities happened to have been created in the process. At least, that's what we used to say a could of years ago. Now all we seem to discuss is how dead it is, and how obviously I am the cause despite my inactivity.
]]>As I recall, NiteHackr is another example of a religious zealot that refuses to put up with differing beliefs. He effectively ragequit because of religious debate, if I'm not mixing him up with other people. Again, debate that he could choose to avoid. Apparently he can only tolerate Christian communities. That is his right. Again, it has little to do with me, other than perhaps myself being one of his persistent challengers.
You don't seem to grasp the idea that you're a religious zealot too. Atheism is just as much a religion as any other, aside from the fact that it professes there is no God. I am willing to assert that you make Christians feel unwelcome here, as well as people who practice other faiths as well. It's called a faith for a reason, as we cannot directly prove or disprove the existence of God. The fact that there are three widely accepted and respected books (Old Testament, New Testament, Koran) that profess a faith in God is not a notion that should be entirely dismissed, not to mention scores of other religious teachings. Guess what bam? Most of the world believes in a God in some form or another, and who are you to tell them that they have no right to believe in what they believe in? Is the entire world simply under a delusion that there could be a being greater than us? I've seen the work of God and Satan, and I am perfectly happy to state that I believe both exist and both influence the world around us. I may not have specific scientific evidence that they are real, but I do have faith in their existence and do not dismiss religion as being without worth.
You put yourself forward as if you're on some kind of holy mission to rid the world of faith in things they can't prove exist simply because you believe that is proof that they don't exist. Who are you to say you know better than everyone else? You're argumentative, abrasive, and rude to people who don't agree with you, and I assert that it drives people away. Do I have a statistical study to back me up? No, but it seems common sense that people don't want to be somewhere their beliefs aren't respected. We don't try to make you believe what we believe, so why do you feel you need to push your beliefs on us? You seem to think that beating people down for their beliefs is some kind of right that you have. Well you don't have the right to brow beat people, yet you do it all the time. I for one am a little tired of it. If people don't feel welcome, then they will leave, and that's exactly what has happened here, and I think you are the main contributor to why people don't feel welcome here.
Anyway, I've said enough and I should go to bed. I'd like to hear what other people think on the matter.
]]>I won't read through these walls of texts just to find out what I already knew.
Is this now even turning into a religious debate again? Come on guys, that's not gonna lead anywhere.
Personally, I welcome different opinions and discussions. It's just how they are presented. Politeness was invented so people can get along. You can overdo that, too, by being 115% politically correct all the time, which would probably be boring. But some degree of civilized behavior is needed. This involves some basic respect for others.
I found Bambam's misogynist walls of text (which I only skimmed) especially stupid, offensive and ... err ... intellectually undemanding . I don't see why anyone (including Bambam) would waste his/her time with such bullshit.
bamccaig is to proper behaviour what piccolo is to proper grammar was to proper grammar[1].
Is this now even turning into a religious debate again? Come on guys, that's not gonna lead anywhere.
Personally, I welcome different opinions and discussions.
But some degree of civilized behavior is needed. This involves some basic respect for others.
I found Bambam's misogynist walls of text (which I only skimmed) especially stupid, offensive and ... err ... intellectually undemanding . I don't see why anyone (including Bambam) would waste his/her time with such bullshit.
So you'd rather discuss sexism than religion? Bring. It. On.
You're a hypocrite. "[Turning this into a religious debate won't solve anything!]" *turns it into a sexism debate* Pot, meet kettle.
If you welcomed different opinions and discussions you would read what I have to say before judging it, and you would challenge what I have to say in context instead of calling me names and stereotyping out of context.
Essentially, if you say anything that questions "Feminism" or women you are immediately labeled "misogynistic". It doesn't matter if what you have to say shows merit. And so it quickly becomes evident that people that would label you as such don't have much merit themselves (at least within the debate). A really interesting thing happens when you actually engage the sexism debate. You discover that the sexism is actually rather weighted against men. It's not so one-sided, and women don't seem to have it nearly as bad as you may have been taught.
Respect goes both ways. If you label what I've written without reading what I've written then I'd say that you're not being respectful of me. I don't think that I have been disrespectful of you, and typically those that I am disrespectful of have shown disrespect in some way. I usually approach new people with respect.
No matter, I try not to hold grudges either way. I try to keep the scope of quibbles limited. If we aren't getting along on a thread I try to keep it limited to that thread. We may not agree on that idea, but that doesn't mean that we can't get along. Unless you refuse to get along with me as a result, in which case so be it.
I'm not perfect. Sometimes I make the mistake of reading things wrong and lunging first. I'm not sure that is the case in this instance, but I'm not above to it. I usually try to identify these mistakes and correct them.
]]>
@ Bambam:
First of all: I can skim your walls of text on ... certain topics .... to get an impression that is accurate enough to show me that there's so much bullshit in it that it doesn't justify actually reading it accurately. I know this from my previous reading experience.
Second: I think the mere fact of writing so many walls of text is already impolite. It's tiring for the eyes to read much badly formatted text on a screen. Our time is limited. We all know that. So it would be better to keep it short if you don't have much to say.
If you think we are to blame if we actually (try to) read what you write, just write your rants to a local file or to /dev/null and be satisfied.
Now, I won't discuss either women or religion or any similar topic with you because my reading experience tells me that it is highly unlikely to provide any new insights for me.
I don't say you're wrong generally, but obviously, you didn't study religion in depth, for example, so to me, personally, your perspective appears to be rather limited.
For example, I personally dislike taking the bible very literally, so we could probably agree on that. But that's not all there is to religion. There is also a deep spiritual side to it (Buddhism can be interesting in that regard). If you spend your time writing walls of text on the Internet while being drunk, my experience with people tells me that it is rather unlikely you have discovered any of this, though. So I think you're stuck on a very ... basic, maybe even superficial ... level of understanding religion.
As for women: Some humans are stupid. From my personal experience, I don't think it correlates with sex or gender. So I consider most of your generalising tirades to be utter nonsense. I feel sorry for you if you're frustrated with women or don't know many cool or interesting women. But ranting on the internet won't help then.
Note that humans have been religious more or less throughout their existence. So chances are there is something to it. Also, half of humans are women. It's just ignorant to rant about something you don't know much about.
Note that I don't generally disagree with you, I don't hold any grudge against you, and I do think you're quite a competent programmer so it can be worthwhile to listen to what you have say about topics you actually studied.
Edit:
This'll be my only wall of text here.
Let's bring basic sociology into the mix, shall we?
Observations:
Bambams is arguing in a team of one.
Several people are banding together and attacking bambams's conduct.
What would be normal behaviour in these circumstances? Simple: strength in numbers and social exclusion are very powerful effects and should lead to a period of misery, a thorough self-evaluation, and improved behaviour in the future. [For the avoidance of doubt, we are talking about BEHAVIOUR here, not BELIEFS.]
The fact that this isn't happening makes you a sociopath, bambams. I think of you as a friend, but I can't support you here. Please just shut up and go through the misery and thorough self-evaluation already.
]]>I started posting a lot less for reasons mentioned here. Text is limiting. In the past I have found that I can write several paragraphs of well thought out meaningful communication. However, if that post also contains a sentence -- or sometimes even a single word -- that triggers conflict, even if it was a side comment on something unrelated, the focus becomes attacking that one line and the tone of the thread shifts entirely.
Jesus.
]]>Jesus.
How dare you use my cat's savior in vain. I'm offended and demand an apology. You triggered me with your cis atheism. You know I was born religious but I wish I was atheist and you bigoted me anyway.
I started posting a lot less for reasons mentioned here. Text is limiting. In the past I have found that I can write several paragraphs of well thought out meaningful communication. However, if that post also contains a sentence -- or sometimes even a single word -- that triggers conflict, even if it was a side comment on something unrelated, the focus becomes attacking that one line and the tone of the thread shifts entirely.
I had to reduce posting on Reddit for that reason. Nobody wants to learn or discuss things anymore. I can write the nicest, properly cited, most carefully worded disagreement with an opinion that goes against popular opinion in Reddit's echo chamber, and I'll be downvoted like crazy (-30 to -200). But if I literally said something like "Hitler rules." I'd get -1 to -3.
People absolutely hate, and fear, ideas that are dangerous to their own pre-established ones. I used to be the same way as a teenager, trying to protect my religion. But honestly, when I let go of that fear of being persuaded, I actually found a real foundation in my religion. I found out what it was, versus what people made it out to be.
So, I'm not defending bam over here, but to say bam is responsible for a significant portion of people leaving feels like a hate bandwagon. Everyone who has held their tongue and ignored his antics is now throwing their memorized beefs into the pot because all a sudden it's socially acceptable to do so in this thread.
Personally, I think yes, we could all do a little better to be respectful. But, there's also a huge problem with everyone taking everything so damn seriously. Like when people actually thought I hated fat people just because I disagree with their lifestyle.
I was seriously considering moving on from this forum if just for that egregious, focus-on-single-words witchhunt to paint me as someone who hates fat people EVEN THOUGH I'M OVERWEIGHT.
There is a huge problem today on the internet where everyone takes any opinion that's contrary to the liberal echo chamber, and paints it as automatically bigoted. It's annoying as hell and it has nothing to do with bettering society, or promoting discussion. It's nothing but using shame to silence opposing opinions.
]]>I was seriously considering moving on from this forum if just for that egregious, focus-on-single-words witchhunt to paint me as someone who hates fat people EVEN THOUGH I'M OVERWEIGHT.
WUT.
There's a reason I stopped posting or even reading most O-T threads that had anything to do with anything that wasn't cat pictures or new toys....
Some people are serious idiots. No joke.
So, I'm not defending bam over here, but to say bam is responsible for a significant portion of people leaving feels like a hate bandwagon.
Pay closer attention to the things he says, and tell me you think he isn't a hateful, spiteful person. Then tell me you think its worth spending time with him.
]]>Just to be clear where I stand, I'm not trying to make you feel unwelcome bamccaig. What I want is to make your behaviour feel unwelcome, which is different.
If you learned anything from what I've said, I hope it is to have a little more tact and be more thoughtful about what you say. You can be very offensive at times, and that drives people away.
Our community is shrinking enough as it is, and we're hemorrhaging active members. I for one would like to see our community grow instead of dying out. To that end I feel we need to be more tolerant and more inclusive, but at the same time I think we need to cut out poor behaviour as well. I would like to see a.cc become as vibrant and active as it used to be. Maybe that just isn't in the cards, but we can try anyway.
]]>I may give bambam some physical corrections if possible.
But his butt hides behind a screen far away from my kick.
Give whatever what it deserves. Bambam serves you shit ? shit on him too. Why can't you ?
I would not leave allegro for a damn one.
Live on, live, live !
]]>Well... To be honest I think that the people that is learning and stuff, only has a brief life in this community, I mean, if you're really learning something, once you're comfortable with your level of knowledge you just leave...
I mean Allegro is not a videogame or a movie or some kind of blog with news and all that, it's just a library, a C library by the way which means that not everyone is interested in when learning to program videogames.
So that means that there is no too much new information all the time, but I have to admit that this community overall is really reluctant to new stuff and changes that is what I think makes a community more active. So that may have cause the decline of people around here. Maybe now everyone is trying to be nice with people and change the old behavior but I think is too late in the short run.
I remember when I was giving suggestions and stuff for the wiki for example and other things and everyone here was like "No way, you're not going to change anything around here, everything here is just perfect, if you don't like it just leave, look all the mess you did" and stuff like that... And I was like... Okey...
I mean it was like "We have so many people working on Allegro!! Suck your suggestions if you want to do it, do it yourself, and do it well otherwise won't be accepted"
What I'm trying to say is that this is not only bamccaigs fault, people that was "protecting Allegro from bad changes" is not even here anymore, people that was against cool stuff is not here anymore.
I think this forums is a really beautiful experience of life and I have learn a lot of things here related and not related to programming.
When I was suggesting a new website and all that, the answer I got was something like "Well... If it is better than the one we have right now, we may accept it...". I don't think that is the answer that a community should give to someone that is offering his time to work on a new website even when the current "official" Allegro website sucks.
This community cuts every little possible ramification of new members from the beginning and obviously that's not a good idea.
It's like "I won't do anything, but I won't allow you to do anything
neither"... Maybe I'm wrong but that is the image I have right now of this community. After all there is a lot of all member here talking and talking but the new changes almost always come from new people.
I have to say that I don't write here anymore not because all I have just said but because I really don't have the time. I'm about to start my own small company right now and I have been working a lot lately.
And bamccaig, I really think you should calm down man, you can't be against the world, if everyone is talking shit about you, you must be doing something wrong, don't try to be Eminem on real life, with all that controversy and stuff, at least he is making money and the rap industry is also everything about entertainment, instead you're just being and asshole.
]]>I remember when I was giving suggestions and stuff for the wiki for example and other things and everyone here was like "No way, you're not going to change anything around here, everything here is just perfect, if you don't like it just leave, look all the mess you did" and stuff like that... And I was like... Okey...
I mean it was like "We have so many people working on Allegro!! Suck your suggestions if you want to do it, do it yourself, and do it well otherwise won't be accepted"
Maybe you misunderstood?
Admittedly we won't accept patches that aren't very good. And not a lot of us have time to implement things we don't actually care about. But that does not mean we won't accept new features or patches.
If you submit a patch that has promise, but isn't quite up to standard, we will ask you to make some changes. If its very close, it may just be applied and modified to fix small issues.
When I was suggesting a new website and all that, the answer I got was something like "Well... If it is better than the one we have right now, we may accept it...". I don't think that is the answer that a community should give to someone that is offering his time to work on a new website even when the current "official" Allegro website sucks.
That's just it. why would we accept something that is worse than what we have now? That just doesn't make sense.
]]>I think AMCerasoli is suggesting that a more enthusiastic tone might help: "Wow, that's really generous of you! Put something together that's better than what's there now and we'll put it up " Saying that IF it's better than we MAY accept it depending on how we feel doesn't exactly encourage the contributor to try
]]>I think AMCerasoli is suggesting that a more enthusiastic tone might help: "Wow, that's really generous of you! Put something together that's better than what's there now and we'll put it up " Saying that IF it's better than we MAY accept it depending on how we feel doesn't exactly encourage the contributor to try
I don't think I've ever said anything like "IF/MAY" to people. More like "We could use help" "A patch is most welcome!"
I don't know if any actual allegro dev has said things like that either.
]]>I think this forums is a really beautiful experience of life and I have learn a lot of things here related and not related to programming.
Agreed. The forum has definitely had a positive impact on me and my life. This is where I cut my teeth on C and then later C++ over a decade ago. Now I'm an associate professor at a community college teaching C, PHP, and web development concepts. It wouldn't have happened without you guys. *fist bump*
]]>Congratulations man, I'm really happy for you!
I haven't "made it" yet--but trust me, by time I'm done, Katko is going to be a household name. And I've got you guys to thank for helping me--even teaching me English grammar when I was unable to go to school.
]]>Pay closer attention to the things he says, and tell me you think he isn't a hateful, spiteful person. Then tell me you think its worth spending time with him.
I'll admit that I don't often frequent the IRC Channel (or even these forums very often anymore) but I feel like I need to step in here and say something since bambams is my friend IRL (also, if I recall correctly it was I who introduced him to these forums like 9 or so years ago).
He is not a hateful spiteful person in real life. He's very calm and rational. He is opinionated yes, but not angry or aggressive. Despite the fact that I am a Christian I still enjoy hanging out with bambams and talking about motorcycles, video games, programming, work etc etc. He knows I'm a Christian and I know he's an Atheist and that doesn't usually come up at all when we are hanging out. I know I'm going to change what he believes just like he probably knows that he's not going to change my beliefs.
I suppose that's not how he is perceived on these channels though. I'm not sure what it is that causes him to post the way he does. It almost seems like his internal 'filter' is turned off as soon as he starts posting here.
Anyways, that's just my $0.02 on the matter.
]]>So bambams, what would your reaction have been if Aaron were physically there and you were talking to him at the time when he said he may as well not comment on anything, or at the time when he allegedly attacked someone (though I still haven't seen where he did that)? Likewise, whatever happened between you and Trent/NiteHackr - how would it have gone if it had been in person?
Text does feel different. For example, having a person standing in front of you makes you automatically accommodate that person in a way that you might not if it's text, and using text might make you feel everything has to be written in factual absolutes whereas speech might encourage you to phrase things more as opinions or thoughts.
]]>So bambams, what would your reaction have been if Aaron were physically there and you were talking to him at the time when he said he may as well not comment on anything, or at the time when he allegedly attacked someone (though I still haven't seen where he did that)? Likewise, whatever happened between you and Trent/NiteHackr - how would it have gone if it had been in person?
Text does feel different. For example, having a person standing in front of you makes you automatically accommodate that person in a way that you might not if it's text, and using text might make you feel everything has to be written in factual absolutes whereas speech might encourage you to phrase things more as opinions or thoughts.
I never accused Aaron of "attacking" anyone. I just said that he is happy to be blunt and offensive himself. As for what I would have done in person, I can't speculate because it didn't happen in person. Odds are Aaron never would have said that in person because he never would have misunderstood who he was replying to.
You're right, the Internet does change how discussions happen. In real life, the biggest or best armed guy wins because if he's unwilling to have an open debate he can just bully anybody that disagrees with him into censoring themselves.
Do you consider this aspect of real life better? If you're trying to argue that Aaron or Trent would beat me up for disagreeing with them let's assume I'm armed with a gun for the debate to defend myself against stupid muscle.
]]>God made man but sam colt made them equal.
]]>In all forms of life, the biggest or best armed guy wins
FTFY We can think of 'biggest or best armed' as 'least sensitive' when it comes to the Internet. You're pretty big and well armed
You did find a flaw in my generalisation, because no, I don't think it's good for the strongest (in whichever sense) to have an automatic ability to bully others (either deliberately or accidentally). I merely thought your in-person demeanour as described by Sam could be an interesting thought experiment for trying to find ways for us all to get along better here. For best results, you should assume Aaron, Trent and NiteHackr are good people who you like in person, and then don't forget to imagine that they're there facing you and listening to what you're typing (which you're actually saying).
One thing I must pick you up on in general: don't assume everyone wants to debate. Very often they don't. Take religion for example: most people treat it as personal to them, and select the bits that help them the most, but they will also happily participate in scientific conquest or other things that fly in its face. For example I've encountered people using the word 'god' simply to mean a feeling of community or a feeling that things are working out. It totally confused me of course. My point is just that it's not a topic for debate.
This thread was never about religion though. The main problem in this thread was that you attacked Aaron at a time when he was already (rightly or wrongly) feeling attacked. It seems to me that you may have assumed he should behave like a professional (or compulsive?) debater like you, which means everything is up for challenge and it is a punishable offence just to withdraw. (Reality: people need to withdraw sometimes and it's always a good safeguard against further damage, so disallowing it is Very Bad.) This might be a point of view you hadn't considered, but hopefully you can in the future.
]]>I merely thought your in-person demeanour as described by Sam could be an interesting thought experiment for trying to find ways for us all to get along better here. For best results, you should assume Aaron, Trent and NiteHackr are good people who you like in person, and then don't forget to imagine that they're there facing you and listening to what you're typing (which you're actually saying).
One thing I must pick you up on in general: don't assume everyone wants to debate. Very often they don't. Take religion for example: most people treat it as personal to them, and select the bits that help them the most, but they will also happily participate in scientific conquest or other things that fly in its face. For example I've encountered people using the word 'god' simply to mean a feeling of community or a feeling that things are working out. It totally confused me of course. My point is just that it's not a topic for debate.
I do assume that Aaron is a good person that I like. As I said, I try not to hold grudges. Several people regularly smear my image here and I don't hold a grudge. Them not so much. They can't wait to beat me down. That's their issue, not mine. Most people jump in. Group think. A few brave souls stand up for me. Rational thinkers. As for Trent and NiteHackr, I gave them the same benefit of the doubt and tried to work with them to start.
Trent simply refused to get along with me. He used to troll me every time I posted and everybody would accuse me of doing something wrong. Simply because he's the amazing Trent Gamblin. I even "bought" a physical copy of his game, Monster 2, a while back thinking I was supporting him. He was a complete dick about it and said he was doing ME a favor for it. Guess what, he's an asshole, and that's not my fault. I already put him to rest with my rap and as far as I'm concerned it's put to bed. I don't care for him simply because of how he treats me, and how other people treat me because of him, but I still don't hold a grudge. I try to respect him when I do cross paths, but he usually doesn't hesitate to instantly attack me and when that happens I reciprocate.
NiteHackr and I got along just fine outside of religious debates, but he could not stay out of them (despite boasting that he would every time). He could not handle somebody challenging his beliefs and he left because of that. He was unable to ignore/tolerate somebody questioning his beliefs. That's his choice. It has nothing to do with me.
Sam is casting me in too good of a light. I absolutely am still blunt in person. I still talk about all of the same things. I respect other people's beliefs though, both in person, and online. However, in all cases, if people push their beliefs on me I will challenge them. It doesn't matter if it's religious, social, political, etc. I usually don't bring the subject up unless people are actually pushing their ideas on others.
For example, my girlfriend's great aunt is a Catholic nun. She asked us about our beliefs and we told her I'm an atheist, but I kept my mouth shut when she gave us a speech about religion. The reason is simple. She's in her late 70s and has dedicated her life to her beliefs. There's nothing to gain for her to be enlightened at this point in her life. It gives her a bit a peace. I typically don't engage elders on the topic because again there's nothing to gain. They are set in their ways, and it would be disrespectful for me to challenge them.
However, if anybody specifically targets me and goes after me about my beliefs then they open that can of worms and I let them have it. I was waiting for my girlfriend's great aunt to say something that would trigger me, but she was very polite about it. She didn't force her beliefs on me. That is the most important part. For the most part, I keep it to myself in those situations. I don't care if she's a 78 year old nun. If she had pushed her beliefs on me I would have engaged the debate and swept the floor with her!
Posting religious ideas unrelated to a community or topic in a public forum is inappropriate. "I'll pray for you!" Unless you specifically know that person holds the same beliefs as you do that is impolite. In public that might still be provoking a response from others that don't share your beliefs. It shows a lack of respect for others' beliefs unless they happen to share the same beliefs as you. That opens yourself up for a debate. It's best to keep that stuff to yourself. Go ahead and pray for me. No need to announce it! Use your telepathy. That way God doesn't need to read the thread! Telling me you're praying for me isn't going to affect the outcome. The only possible benefit is the person you're telling giving you praise for it (i.e., it's selfish to say something). I will never give you praise for praying for me. I don't care. Keep it to yourself. If you just mean to say that you wish me well then say that.
The same goes for starting threads about your religion. You're effectively starting a discussion about religion by doing so. I don't at all mind you posting about it (Bring. It. On.), but expect to have a discussion about it if you do. If you don't want to have that there are specific forums on the Internet full of like-minded people to discuss that without debating it.
This thread was never about religion though. The main problem in this thread was that you attacked Aaron at a time when he was already (rightly or wrongly) feeling attacked. It seems to me that you may have assumed he should behave like a professional (or compulsive?) debater like you, which means everything is up for challenge and it is a punishable offence just to withdraw. (Reality: people need to withdraw sometimes and it's always a good safeguard against further damage, so disallowing it is Very Bad.) This might be a point of view you hadn't considered, but hopefully you can in the future.
I never really meant to target Aaron with my rant, but I assumed that his post was the catalyst for the OP and the OP is an over-reaction, just as I felt that Aaron's post was. And frankly I'm sick of people posting these kinds of threads. It's not really constructive to have a thread like this. These kinds of threads look really bad for a community and it blows things way out of proportion. For the most part, people do get along just fine here. We have for over a decade. Nothing needs to be fixed. If anything, people that are overly sensitive need to address that themselves. As we've said, things used to be far worse. If anything, we need to go back to that! It's OK to have a little bit of rivalry, but I don't even think that we have that here right now. It was perfectly fine for Aaron to say what he did. He had a feeling and he expressed it. I didn't say boo when he said that. I rolled my eyes and moved on.
The problem is that it attracted this kind of attention. Those people that feel the world has to change because somebody felt that something they did wasn't appreciated or something that somebody did or said was offensive to somebody else. They're wrong, and that is predominantly what I was addressing. Gideon provoked me to address it by starting this thread. As usual, people took offense to the humorous envelop that I wrapped my message in and resorted to tunnel vision attacks. And that is all that you read. You focused on the envelop instead of the message. And here we are.
I can understand new members being confused, but those of you that have known me for years should really know better. And those of you seem to have been the front-runners in this witch-hunt.
]]>He is not a hateful spiteful person in real life. He's very calm and rational. He is opinionated yes, but not angry or aggressive.
Well, his walls-o-text come out rather aggressive, especially towards women (rape is apparently women's fault for wearing smutty clothes, except studies show rape is about power[1]) or anything that disagrees with his world view. He's even taken to insulting them (and conveniently ignoring) on a regular basis when he can't refute them.
I can understand new members being confused, but those of you that have known me for years should really know better.
I dunno. Maybe you should just stop posting drunken rants and we'll have a chance to get to know you better?
Why do you rant so hard here, and not at Samuel? Can we attribute it to something like Penny-Arcade's Greater Internet Dickwad theory? Just replace "anonymity" with "internet"?
Can you start behaving in a respectable manor more of the time? As of late, I'll admit you have actually been behaving less poorly. I and many others would appreciate it.
As for "witch hunt", it seems like you may have a bit of a persecution complex. If people disagree with you, or don't like the way you behave, they are "against you" in some deeply personal way. It only becomes personal if you make it personal.
For example, in #allegro, people were upset with things you had to say, and probably upset that you kept repeating the SAME arguments, used incredibly convenient excuses to hand wave away any arguments you didn't like, and would often fork a conversation into a sexist tirade. I found it INCREDIBLY uncomfortable, but withheld doing anything till people asked me to, as it is not my place as a channel mod to enforce my preferences on the channel. I am there to make sure it is a hospitable, and open environment. If anyone in there affects that, I will ask them to stop, likely more than once, before actually doing anything serious (ie: de-voice, kick, temp ban, or long term ban). You know what I get in return? More rants and insults, because i dare to try keep the channel a place free from hate. That unfortunately comes with the job. It's a rather common problem, the loudest people tend to scream bloody murder if you ask them to sush.
Oh god, now I've gone and written a wall of text. *sigh*
I didn't quite grasp why people have been disappearing because of bambam (I mean, it's just bambam... ).
What I noticed here, however, is that I'd consider it polite to apologize if I offended someone instead of calling him an oversensitive wimp on top of it. However, that's just what bambam seems to do here ("If I offended you, it's your fault.")
Even if he was right by saying so (which I have reason to doubt), it is still just rude and impolite.
I can't see were bamccaig was so terrible hateful, too. But i have not read it all. He is verbose, thats right. Bear in mind, the more you are writing the more sh*t you are talking. Somebody is always insulted.
People are very clever. In their thinking they are always right, so what ever you are saying it must be wrong. Even if you say nothing they expect you to say something like good morning. If you don't do it they have another reason to punish you for what you are saying/not saying.
One day you come to the conclusion to stop all this thinking. Like Patanjali said in his Yoga Sutra:
"Yoga is the ending of the activities of the thoughts."
Then you will see your real nature and what spirituality means.
]]>I didn't quite grasp why people have been disappearing because of bambam (I mean, it's just bambam... ).
If something makes you incredibly uncomfortable or upset, would you stay? If you do something that hurts, would you keep doing it over and over?
I can't see were bamccaig was so terrible hateful, too.
I presume you skim or skip most of his tirades? Among his wonderful gems, He has said that it is women's fault for being raped.
]]>If something makes you incredibly uncomfortable or upset, would you stay? If you do something that hurts, would you keep doing it over and over?
Of course I can see how it can make you upset. But, personally, I find just skipping walls of text containing too much bullshit the most natural thing to do anyway.
I don't know, if I left I would feel that I had allowed bambam's rants to gain way too much influence on me. We're actually giving him too much attention here, too.
Several people regularly smear my image here and I don't hold a grudge. Them not so much. They can't wait to beat me down. That's their issue, not mine. Most people jump in. Group think. A few brave souls stand up for me. Rational thinkers.
This is serious stuff. Almost poetic. I just had to quote it. Sorry.
]]>Bams is quite abrasive in his rants, however, that doesn't mean he's the root of all evil here. We used to have a large number of members to get irritated at, and no real way to engage them without trolling yourself. Nowadays it is mainly the regulars, the committers, and and those who just come for the lulz. Bams just seems more abrasive because there aren't a bunch of idiots trolling us all the time.
I've been both a prick, and the recipient here. Blaming this all on each other doesn't change the fact that we keep coming back for a reason. I happen to like you all (even the ones dumb enough to use Windows or believe in a Sky Daddy).
]]>Bill Gates is my Sky daddy. He's up in the cloud.
]]>Bams is quite abrasive in his rants, however, that doesn't mean he's the root of all evil here. We used to have a large number of members to get irritated at, and no real way to engage them without trolling yourself.
I'm not actually upset for his walls of text, or just the abrasiveness. It is the actively hostile and hateful stance towards women (and other things I'm probably not remembering).
]]>I'm not actually upset for his walls of text, or just the abrasiveness. It is the actively hostile and hateful stance towards women (and other things I'm probably not remembering).
Seconded, but he still can share that even if we don't agree. I think bams is wayyyyyyy the hell out in left field with that stuff.
Honestly, I'm considering moving to Sweden, because I disagree with a large portion of my continent on humanistic matters. I hear Sweden has a largely sensible population.
EDIT:
Bill Gates is my Sky daddy. He's up in the cloud.
I saw what you did there...
]]>I hear Sweden has a largely sensible population.
Not in rape rates!
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]]>he still can share that even if we don't agree.
I don't agree. It is incredibly offensive, backwards and objectively wrong. If he wants to talk about that stuff he can go to /r/TheRedPill and drink the coolaid.
Not in rape rates!
The problem there is that they might just report it more often there. Many women don't report rape as they believe it won't actually lead to anything, and will just open them up to ridicule, and people blaming them (which it often does).
]]>I think a portion of this might have to do with Sweden's openness about sexual conduct. In other countries a large portion of people won't go to the police out of shame. Double edged sword though, that openness could be perceived as an invite sometimes.
Take the good with the bad, I guess.
EDIT:
I don't agree. It is incredibly offensive, backwards and objectively wrong. If he wants to talk about that stuff he can go to /r/TheRedPill and drink the coolaid.
I prefer to abstain from marking certain views as inappropriate from a site perspective, because then the mods become more thought police than abuse deterrents. In Allegro's context though, I can see how this would be abhorred. We have few regular members, and it isn't good to have their opinions be iconoclastic. What do you do, though? Ban bams for his opinion? That's not right either, so just let it be.
]]>Take the good with the bad, I guess.
How about we try to evolve and get rid of the bad. Stop living in the past like animals.
]]>Thus why I'd like to move away. I see little hope for the under-educated, non-voting, unwashed masses of my country. They don't know what's best for themselves or each other. We value capitalism over the greater good. We want to put pseudoscience in schools. We police and spy on the world. We pillage for oil.
I'll take my education and go somewhere that knows how to keep it real.
]]>What do you do, though? Ban bams for his opinion? That's not right either, so just let it be.
It comes down to how he behaves. If he continues to insult people, and spout hateful things, that i think is grounds for a boot. I'm not a mod here, so I have no real say. That is just my opinion.
]]>You have no onion.
]]>People having views is not an invitation to start a massive one-sided debate to crush their sensibilities. Being right or thinking you're right or having a strong opinion is fine when you don't push it on others, but bam always does. He is internally compelled to win arguments, whether there should be one or not. Having different views is good, but if someone can't express their views without turning everything into arguments, then it quickly drags everyone and everything else down into degenerate behavior.
bams just hasn't figured it out yet that it isn't about winning the internetTM.
If you want validation of your opinions or some kind of an up/down vote then go to Reddit or something.
]]>Honestly bambams, reading your latest post here, I think you have trouble distinguishing what is real, hard facts and what is purely your perception. It's good that you explained your rationale in this thread, because it was a mystery to me if no one else. There's still a disconnect though, because you say you used humour in this thread, but I don't think anyone can reasonably be expected to recognise it as humour. Without focusing further on specific points in your post, I just think you should work on recognising when your infallible logic is actually based on bad information because your own perception was different from everyone else's. That's at least damage limitation and dispute resolution. You can also work on it pre-emptively: think what other people know and how other people might think, and factor that in when you decide what you're going to say in the first place.
I will actually point out another example from your post. "I'll pray for you" at worst shows that someone else (also) has problems putting themselves in other people's shoes, or it could just be a reflection of where they have most of their interactions (church). The fact that they're saying it, instead of just doing it, may be the whole reason it works: it lets you know that they want the best for you, and that should cheer you up, which in turn makes you better at coping with the coming stresses. The person saying it does not necessarily even know why they're doing it; it's built in. We evolved to support each other because it helps us survive as a species.
As you can see, plenty of people don't see it the way you do. I also think most people won't anticipate the way you see it, because you've spent a long time thinking about your reasoning and no one else is automatically privy to that. So, if your girlfriend's aunt had said that and you had reacted the way you suggest, you might have lost your girlfriend.
Finally, it's good that you said you never meant to target Aaron, but it would be even better if you could bring yourself to apologise. Don't do this just because I suggested it. Ideally it's a natural consequence of your recognising that you acted on a lot of personal conclusions that you now realise were not in most other people's minds, especially Aaron's.
Now I'm going to reply to other people
many rapists don't even know what clothes the women were wearing
I'm not sure this by itself is an argument that clothes don't make a difference. Those rapists might have been influenced by the clothes without realising it.
Not in rape rates!
That graph clearly shows that Sweden has the strongest culture of actually reporting it when a rape has occurred. Honestly you think a country like Indonesia really has no rapes?
[EDIT]
Crack statistics: OMG! Rapes are at 66.5% in Sweden!
Ban bams for his opinion?
I read that as "Bam bams for his opinion?"
]]>OMG! Rapes are at 66.5% in Sweden!
... or 0.0665%
Stop living in the past like animals.
We should live in the future like animals!
I don't agree with everything bambams says either, but I really don't see what the problem is. I am not easily offended by other people's opinions and I hold a few opinions of my own that are considered offensive, like that there is no god and that you should believe in Him with your whole heart.
]]>That graph clearly shows that Sweden has the strongest culture of actually reporting it when a rape has occurred. Honestly you think a country like Indonesia really has no rapes?
I respect you as a person, but I have to say that I hate that argument so much. The second you bring "Report rates" into the mix, all statistics are meaningless. It then becomes nothing more than "Well, I feel like the USA has more rapes, so it must have more rapes." Yes yes yes, 3rd-world countries that don't even believe rape can happen don't count, but similar, free, democratic countries are still comparable.
Sweden, the USA, Canada, Germany, and likewise, can still be compared. Otherwise, we might as well say police brutality isn't a problem at all in the USA because maybe the USA just cares more about our citizens so they report brutality more. And the USA doesn't have more gun deaths than other countries, we just report them more.
like that there is no god and that you should believe in Him with your whole heart.
Bill Gates is gonna GETCHA!
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]]>Honestly bambams, reading your latest post here, I think you have trouble distinguishing what is real, hard facts and what is purely your perception.
Care to cite an example?
There's still a disconnect though, because you say you used humour in this thread, but I don't think anyone can reasonably be expected to recognise it as humour.
Well I am not a comedian by trade, but then again I don't think most of you would be able to tolerate a dark comedy act. You'd be far too offended. If you were greatly offended then I suppose you just weren't my audience. To be fair, Bruce, I find that you have a lot of trouble with dark comedy. I have a lot of trouble with much UK humor so it could also just be a culture barrier.
Without focusing further on specific points in your post, I just think you should work on recognising when your infallible logic is actually based on bad information because your own perception was different from everyone else's.
Can you give an example of my bad information? Having a different idea from most other people, especially closed minded sheep (no offense), doesn't mean that you're wrong. Most people tend to be idiots. Groups have bad ideas. Individuals that aren't afraid to think freely have good ideas.
That's at least damage limitation and dispute resolution. You can also work on it pre-emptively: think what other people know and how other people might think, and factor that in when you decide what you're going to say in the first place.
It's not my job to preempt how other people are going to think about an idea. I can't know. Sometimes I think that an idea is great and people hate it. Other times i think an idea is poor and people love it. Maybe if I censored myself you'd only get the ideas that you hate. I find it better to rationalize ideas on their merit based on my understanding, and share them openly with others. I don't really care if an idea offends you. I mean, I try not to have ideas that are designed to be hurtful. So if it offends you then you're probably either misunderstanding me or are simply too closed minded. Or I've made a mistake, but if I'm already doing my best not to then I can't really prevent that.
I will actually point out another example from your post. "I'll pray for you" at worst shows that someone else (also) has problems putting themselves in other people's shoes, or it could just be a reflection of where they have most of their interactions (church). The fact that they're saying it, instead of just doing it, may be the whole reason it works: it lets you know that they want the best for you, and that should cheer you up, which in turn makes you better at coping with the coming stresses. The person saying it does not necessarily even know why they're doing it; it's built in. We evolved to support each other because it helps us survive as a species.
It doesn't work. Statistically. That aside, at worst it shows that someone doesn't respect your beliefs and believes that they are superior and that you are at their mercy. It doesn't even demonstrate that the person even wants the best for you. You seem to be under the impression that Christians are incapable of being disingenuous. On the contrary.
As you can see, plenty of people don't see it the way you do. I also think most people won't anticipate the way you see it, because you've spent a long time thinking about your reasoning and no one else is automatically privy to that.
If I thought that my audience already shared my point of view then I wouldn't bother expressing it. If it's something that they care about then I expect them to give it some thought. If they don't care about it then I expect them to ignore it. By all means, try to catch up. If you don't understand me then say so or ask questions to clarify.
So, if your girlfriend's aunt had said that and you had reacted the way you suggest, you might have lost your girlfriend.
I wasn't afraid of that. I think my girlfriend is more intelligent than that, and if she's not then I guess I won't miss her. You seem to assume that defeating somebody's argument is a bad thing. On the contrary, it's a good thing. They can't hold it against you without being unreasonable which would only further my points. My girlfriend is not overly religious herself, though even that wouldn't have phased or censored me (though perhaps we never would have made it so far).
Finally, it's good that you said you never meant to target Aaron, but it would be even better if you could bring yourself to apologise. Don't do this just because I suggested it. Ideally it's a natural consequence of your recognising that you acted on a lot of personal conclusions that you now realise were not in most other people's minds, especially Aaron's.
I don't know what was in Aaron's mind because he hasn't really had anything to say. I would really like to talk to him about how he felt and help him through that. It might help him to learn to care a little bit less what people think. All that you can do is your best to be helpful. If other people don't appreciate then fuck them. Hopefully you enjoy it on your own. In my experience, you will inevitably run into people that can't handle you questioning them. There are two ways to approach those people. You can either back down, surrender, and give up. Or else you can stand up to them, discuss their arguments, and try to resolve the conflict. You may be right, or you may be wrong. Neither one of you will learn anything if either of you give up.
]]>I respect you as a person, but
Great Unfortunately, since you started a sentence with that totally backhanded comment, the feeling is no longer mutual
[EDIT]
And a quick reply to bambams: I did cite a couple of examples
the belief that "I'll pray for you", in typical usage, is insulting - of course Christians can be disingenuous but you should never assume it until you have a reason beyond that they said "I'll pray for you"
the belief that what I at least read as an attack could be humour (and I don't care to argue about whether it's actually my perception that's wrong, sorry - too tired)
Aside from that, the stuff I asked you to do (which you think isn't your responsibility) is stuff that many of us just do because it helps us and others get along. I only suggested it because I'm trying to find ways to stop you getting attacked for your posts like in this thread. If you can't get anything useful from it, I only have so much time and will have to leave it, sorry (Will just say that people can at least sense it when you show some effort to understand them instead of just talking about your own views - you don't have to be right about what others are thinking, just show you're trying.)
Oh and what exactly do you mean by dark comedy? Is it the same as black humour? Because I love that stuff. Jokes inspired by recent tragedies for example (with care to make sure you have the right audience for those jokes, of course). Sorry we can't agree on this one.
Oh, example: my mum felt sad on Mother's Day because it was her first one without her mum. I sent her something like, "I want to die like my grandfather, peacefully in my sleep. Not screaming like the passengers in his car." The joke did actually help her.
[EDIT again]
Maybe we're assuming different contexts? If someone means to say "I'll pray for you to find your way back to religion" then yes, it's annoying, I'll grant you that and a bit of rudeness might be a useful reality check for the person who said it. My previous comments apply if someone merely said it outside of a religious discussion because you've got something stressful coming up.
Sleep now!
]]>Great Unfortunately, since you started a sentence with that totally backhanded comment, the feeling is no longer mutual
I think that he actually made very valid points. He took the time to try to show you that he didn't mean you disrespect and you chose to take disrespect and be disrespectful in return. You've basically proven that going out of your way to cater to somebody does you no good. People are dicks just because you disagree with them. People with good ideas argue the points. People with bad ideas insult you or claim that you're being insulting.
Aside from that, the stuff I asked you to do (which you think isn't your responsibility) is stuff that many of us just do because it helps us and others get along. I only suggested it because I'm trying to find ways to stop you getting attacked for your posts like in this thread. If you can't get anything useful from it, I only have so much time and will have to leave it, sorry (Will just say that people can at least sense it when you show some effort to understand them instead of just talking about your own views - you don't have to be right about what others are thinking, just show you're trying.)
I always try to understand what other people are saying. This is a very meta thread in the sense that people aren't arguing about something in this thread with me. They're arguing about something they claim that I did or said in the past. And I don't agree with their claims of what I said at all. They obviously didn't understand me or are just closed minded and prejudiced. Again, if they really wanted to discuss the topic they would do so in context. They attack me out of context because I can't defend myself. I don't even know what they're responding to. And frankly it's not even worth it to fight them because I know they don't fight fair. I believe that anybody worthy of my respect will be able to see that.
They can go ahead and spread their lies. I know what I said, and everybody that participated saw it happen and hopefully formed their own ideas. If you would like to debate the topic again go ahead and start a thread. Or next time that I do I'll see you then. I think that Thomas is casting himself in a very poor light in this thread. And honestly I usually have a lot of respect for him so it's quite disappointing, but he seems to be regressing further and further into this closed minded censor.
Oh and what exactly do you mean by dark comedy? Is it the same as black humour? Because I love that stuff. Jokes inspired by recent tragedies for example (with care to make sure you have the right audience for those jokes, of course). Sorry we can't agree on this one.
Oh, example: my mum felt sad on Mother's Day because it was her first one without her mum. I sent her something like, "I want to die like my grandfather, peacefully in my sleep. Not screaming like the passengers in his car." The joke did actually help her.
Yes, I meant "black humour". In my experience, you have trouble with it, but of course there are different styles and contexts. Perhaps it is the "American" humour that you don't get and you do just fine with black humour (I believe you do). Or I could be talking out of my ass. Mostly this is IRC PMs that I'm recollecting. It's entirely possible that I'm not remembering things perfectly. Of course, I take it that you do try to appease everyone, and to some extent I think that requires getting serious about jokes when some people don't get them. I digress. I believe you can take dark humour. In hindsight, I might vaguely recall sharing some with you that we both enjoyed so I don't know...
]]>They obviously didn't understand me or are just closed minded and prejudiced.
Really? More like you don't understand yourself and how you are perceived, and how your abrasiveness and argumentative attitude are causing problems with other forum members.
It's not like Thomas to complain hardly at all, and the fact that he is now should show you your behaviour is seriously problematic.
People think you're harmless, but you're not.
This is just one quote of many more like it over the years.
Source : Your new favorite programmer
You're welcome to wear whatever you want, but it WILL have an effect on how people interact with you, especially guys. Also, do NOT complain when males of any age take an open opportunity to look up a woman's skirt. You're the one wearing an open door instead of a wall. Would you undress in a room with an open door and not expect passing guys to peek in? Not if you had any sense. It's really just a fact of life, IMO.
As Ron White [wikipedia.org] said, "...Once you've seen one woman naked, you wanna see the rest of 'em naked." Essentially don't complain about men objectifying you if you dress like you want them to.
IMO, if a female wants to be respected in a male dominated industry then she shouldn't draw unnecessary attention to her gender. Firstly, it screams I don't quite fit in and, secondly, it distracts men from what matters (and by that I mean your abilities applicable to the industry). Of course, it's also important to strive to be successful in the industry as any successful male would do.
Emphasis mine.
So according to bamccaig it's okay to look up women's skirts and it's not okay for them to dress femininely or attractively if they want to be respected because that would distract men from doing their jobs (which are far more important anyway ).
Why don't we all just embrace Islam and make women cover their entire bodies? That way men won't be tempted anymore.
I was homeschooled through most of my youth, but when I went to regular school my parents sent me to religious school. Once I was in a bible class and the teacher said something in the vain of "If a girl is wearing a bikini and she gets raped it is her fault." Even now thinking about that i want to punch that ignorant F in the face.
...
I'm not reading that thread.
(That thread)
Because if I read that thread and gut you with a steak knife and wrap my Christmas tree with your intestines I'm not saying you are to blame, but one could say you did provoke it.
bamccaig's own words on the matter :
Have any of your friends been raped? I doubt it, if you're making a ridiculous statement like that. I know that you're not saying that you condone it, but seriously.
That was mostly just an offensive, controversial, and ignorant way of saying I disagree with dressing that skimpy. I may still feel sympathy, but I also may not.
bamccaig alienates people, and he likes to get under people's skin. Those two threads are just the tip of the iceberg. If you guys can't see he has been the cause of detriment to our community then I think you're blind. Do his positive contributions outweigh his negative ones? Are they worth putting up with? And losing community members because of it? Decide for yourself.
If you want the witch hunt to stop, maybe you should stop stirring the pot and quit while you're ahead.
]]>I think that he actually made very valid points. He took the time yadayadayada
Now who's missing the humour? Double standards anyone?
I've never heard expressions like "With all due respect" used positively. Never. They're always followed by something insulting. The sad part is, the rest of Chris's post was fine and would not have been insulting by itself, but with that preface, you know something was wrong.
Now the part about me therefore not respecting him as a person because of it - that was me being flippant. I even put a on the end. You're the expert in that kind of humour, or so we thought.
]]>Great Unfortunately, since you started a sentence with that totally backhanded comment, the feeling is no longer mutual
I'm not going to reply to you any more in this thread since you apparently think I don't respect you.
]]>They obviously didn't understand me or are just closed minded and prejudiced.
It's always someone else's fault. Never his.
It's that whole persecution complex rearing its head. he is always right, any time he is shown he is not, HE IS STILL RIGHT and you just don't understand, and you are not just wrong, you are prejudiced against him.
*sigh*
]]>Chris, if it helps, I'll address your other comments (the ones you might have been afraid showed signs of disrespect).
I have to say that I hate that argument so much. The second you bring "Report rates" into the mix, all statistics are meaningless.
In fairness to me, I didn't do that. The graph title did that - unless you want to draw a distinction between 'reported' and 'police-recorded'. Do you?
It then becomes nothing more than "Well, I feel like the USA has more rapes, so it must have more rapes."
My comment about Sweden having the best culture was not meant to be taken seriously anyway. Furinkan had taken a liking to Sweden, so I thought, why not praise Sweden and encourage him some more? Out of interest, why did you even have Sweden's rape rates in mind? What have you been up to?
Yes yes yes, 3rd-world countries that don't even believe rape can happen don't count, but similar, free, democratic countries are still comparable.
The graph has a strange mix of countries. Why not the UK? Did someone hand-pick the countries to make Sweden look special?
]]>So today, I was in a cafe doing some reading, and a young college age guy and a girl come in to the cafe. He had a few gay mannerisms but they may be friends or a couple or something else I don't know but the girl was quite attractive, wearing a tight lowcut blouse and a black mini skirt, so naturally she caught my attention and I took a few looks here and there. Her and her friend get ready to order drinks and discuss where to sit as they were apparently meeting someone else there from what I overheard of their conversation. Thing is, while they're discussing these things, she turned around and faced away from me and maybe she had mis-dressed herself mistakenly or she was a terrible tramp because the slit in her skit that should normally be on the side to show off a woman's thigh, was directly in back. The slit went high enough that it was showing her butt cheeks and if she was wearing underwear it must have been a thong or something because it didn't really look like it. I looked away feeling a bit like a peeping tom, but the sight was kind of burned into my mind. Not that she was un-attractive or anything, but looking directly at someone's exposed back side is a bit like being mooned by people on the interstate. You don't want to look but you keep doing it anyway. Bear in mind, it's not like I was actively trying to look up her skirt because you know I've seen it before and it's pretty rude to do so as well, but it was just that her skirt wasn't even there in the back and its pretty distracting when someone is just hanging it all out for the world to see. I wanted to say something to her but in the end I didn't. I thought that either she had done it on purpose or else it would just embarrass her so much that I shouldn't say anything to her. After all, her friend should know about it right, I mean they walked together here. How can he not know? I mean was she really some kind of ultra slut hanging out with her gay friend? I have to think that she wasn't now that I think back on it and I feel bad for not saying anything to her about it. I should have said something at least like "hey, excuse me, but I think you might want to adjust your skirt a little bit. Isn't it a little bit drafty in here?". I mean if she didn't do it on purpose then it would probably have been the nice thing to do to let her know so that she could fix it. Well after a while they got their drinks and went to sit somewhere off to the side. I wasn't finished with my reading but I had to go so I left but I didn't say anything to her even though I feel that now maybe I should have.
So, what would you have done in my place?
A. Enjoyed the view.
B. Looked away and minded your own business.
C. Tell her, even though it might really embarrass her.
D. Other. (please comment)
And yes bamccaig I'm baiting you. Gonna bite?
tl;dr;
I got flashed today.
A little of A, a little of B. Saying something to her would be opening yourself up for all kinds of negative attention.
"Pervert!"
"Psycho!"
"Creep!"
"Pig!"
"Rapist!"
Let alone if my girlfriend caught me.
It's socially acceptable for women to dress like that (more or less), but it's still socially unacceptable for men to really openly enjoy it (even if that's the point). Besides that, if it was accidental you're still a strange man that she doesn't know so you can't very well approach her with something so intimate and personal and get away with it. The exception would be if you happen to be very attractive and charming. Turns out only ugly or shy guys are creeps.
Of course, I'd argue that it's quite likely that she did this on purpose and attempting to do something nice like point out her wardrobe malfunction would end up hurting you. Either by humiliating you for thinking otherwise, or for implying that there was something wrong with the way she is dressed (even if, you know, there probably was).
I digress. I don't know if that really happened or you invented it to try to trick me into saying something incriminating, but I'm not concerned. I enjoyed the imagery regardless.
]]>You know, every once in a while you make some pretty good points. Don't let me go feeding your ego or anything though. And you weren't even offensive about it. Is that really you?
]]>Right!
I have it on good authority from a Swede that Swedes call 'rape' given the slightest provocation, and it's turned into an inverse witch hunt. Hence the crazy graph. For example, apparently this story will not have been included in a Swedish newspaper. (I haven't searched - is it out there?)
[EDIT]
Oh and Chris, I thought some more about what "I respect you as a person, but" meant - it suggests that me using an argument you hate was a bigger problem than it should be. Why is your respect for me as a person even a topic just because I made some flippant, unresearched comment on the Internet about Swedish culture? What about all the stuff I really define myself by, such as my efforts to help people such as bambams here, or the music and games I've made for people to enjoy?
Oh and Chris, I thought some more about what "I respect you as a person, but" meant - it suggests that me using an argument you hate was a bigger problem than it should be. Why is your respect for me as a person even a topic just because I made some flippant, unresearched comment on the Internet about Swedish culture? What about all the stuff I really define myself by, such as my efforts to help people such as bambams here, or the music and games I've made for people to enjoy?
Who says I need any help? Oh, you mean, all of those people that don't respect me because of researched comments that I've made on the Internet about Western culture?
]]>I like what someone in IRC said about this thread - "a bunch of people demonizing bambams for his opinions, while at the same time making themselves guilty of all the things they are accusing him of"
]]>Oi! I did not spend most of this thread demonising bambams or anyone else
It's been a difficult thread to participate in healthily though, I'll grant you that
]]>My only objective in this thread was to make bam aware of how I and others perceive him. And it's hardly demonizing someone when you are simply pointing out their bad behaviour. And if bambams is such a victim then why aren't the people on IRC coming into the thread to support him? Because really I'm the villain for not agreeing with the way bamboy acts and finally saying something about it. Right? Yeah, ok. Whatever.
]]>I'm demonizing his behavior. Do you think a person is their behavior, and thus attacking their behavior is attacking them? I personally think a person is not their behavior. You can change your behavior.
I would like it very much if bam continued to improve his behavior. Then I'd have no (or very little) problem with him at all.
Like i said before, his behavior on #allegro is much improved. His anti-women ranting has plummeted. I and many others thank him for that. He still rants a bit, but its pretty much tech related (he hates mercurial ), and might be valid points (though if it is as broken as he claims, how do people use it at all?) Ranting imo is ok occasionally. Everyone does it. So long as you're not being insulting or disrespectful towards other people, it's not something I have a problem with.
That said, we are human, and to err is human. The occasional misstep is bound to happen, and is not something that is grounds for serious repercussions.
I like what someone in IRC said about this thread - "a bunch of people demonizing bambams for his opinions, while at the same time making themselves guilty of all the things they are accusing him of"
I completely disagree with that sentiment. I wasn't intentionally insulting bambams, where as he has repeatedly insulted me.
Asking a person to STOP insulting people, and bringing to light his transgressions is NOT demonizing.
]]>I like what someone in IRC said about this thread - "a bunch of people demonizing bambams for his opinions, while at the same time making themselves guilty of all the things they are accusing him of"
That is not quite right. But I wouldn't expect anyone to read this thread carefully anyway.
]]>IRC is sooooooo 1990.
]]>Like this if you're IRCing in 2015.
]]>But I wouldn't expect anyone to read this thread carefully anyway.
I keep trying to, but you guys keep making it longer. At the very least, I feel relieved that a more-or-less civil discussion concerning very personal things has taken place on, of all places, the Internet. As avatars on the forums and nicks on the list, we might not have the access to each other's weak points as would, say, a family member or loved one--but we are nevertheless free from social rules and obligations. No holds are barred--and yet a good, clean fight has managed to take place. I am still processing it.
Also, bambams really needs to be commended for being down to earth and emotionally immune throughout it all. He could very well be an asshole in some people's books. I don't know. I don't much care--but his resistance to misinterpretation of facts with personal attacks is admirable.
The next step is figuring out how to pass on this immunity to others, at least in part. I would like to think that possible.
Like this if you're IRCing in 2015.
👍
]]>Also, bambams really needs to be commended for being down to earth and emotionally immune throughout it all. He could very well be an asshole in some people's books. I don't know. I don't much care--but his resistance to misinterpretation of facts with personal attacks is admirable.
Is that how you saw it
IMO he sees just about everything as a personal attack when it doesn't match up with his world view. then he goes into attack mode.
So yeah, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Care to explain?
]]>I don't much care--but his resistance to misinterpretation of facts with personal attacks is admirable.
Are you referring to me specifically? I did my best to reason out and rationally explain where I was coming from. I was not out to make personal attacks, nor do I think I have been misinterpreting facts.
If I was insenstive or sexist or rude (did I tell anyone to put a fresh pad in their panties? Which is both rude to the person you're telling it to, and rude to women as well?) then please bring it to my recollection and attention.
]]>Didn't read thread, but saw question in last post and it is clear that quoted post is regarding bamccaig
]]>... or why can't we all just get along?
To answer the original question: because this is the off topic forums. We sit around and dick measure all day. I thought that WAS the point of off topic boards...
I'll go ahead and settle all the qualms here:
My dick is bigger
My fiancee is blacker
My ass is hotter
There is no god but me
My fiancee is blacker
My ass is hotter
In my case, my wife is hotter.
]]>I have three gods in one.
]]>It's because we're unhappy in life. But it is better to ignore people online.
bamccaig - this is exactly the kind of insensitive hostility the rest of us are sick of
I think its not a big deal.
I like it when people ignore instead of ban.
]]>Well we've begun a new page[1]. Shall we start over?
bamccaig - this is exactly the kind of insensitive hostility the rest of us are sick of
I shouldn't really have spoken for everyone there. That was my opinion only.
And I don't want to ban anyone. Unless they're just out to troll f**k people. I just want things to be civil and not turn into giant one sided arguments that one can never win in their eyes. And then be constantly reminded of it.
I think bam's got a lot of intelligent thoughts. But sometimes he just pushes his ideas on people, whether they want it or not, whether they asked for it or not. This is a forum. Not a ring side seat at Madison Square Garden where you get thrown into the ring whether you like it or not. The idea that people can just 'stay out of the off-topic forums' if they don't want to participate in knock down drag out fisticuffs arguing over why GUI's are so infinitely inferior and that *NIX rules and WinDoze drools and blah blah the GPL is there to protect you (from yourself making a living off your software apparently) blah blah there's no way God created the world in 7 days because duh we know the universe is 13 billion years old, or at least that's as far away as our farthest telescopes can see. Taking Genesis a little too literally are we? And then being such an insensitive jerk when it comes to matters of women and feminist ideas. It all adds up.
And speaking of feminism, is there a need for it? Are women sufficiently enabled that we should not look upon them with an eye for inequitable treatment among the sexes? I'm taking a Judaism class right now, and I've learned a lot of interesting things. Recently we learned about the roles of feminists in Judaism. In the Bible and in the history of the Jewish people, there is a massively one-sided domination of the female sex by men. They are a patrilineal society with power and authority resting in the male side of the families. Only men could be rabbis for the longest time until the 20th century in the late 70's or so when women came to be able to be ordained as rabbis as well in the Conservative and Reform movements of modern Judaism. Orthodox branches of Judaism do not allow the ordination of women as rabbis, but that may change relatively soon due to pressure from outside and from within. The Bible is written in strictly male language and speaks directly to men, such as when Moses addressed the people before Sinai and told the men not to touch a woman for three days. The role of women is largely marginalized and minimized but is still present and the presence of women in the Bible like Sarah, Rachel, and Leah is usually neglected. This is changing in modern liturgy that reflects the new sentiment to include women in the language and teaching of the Bible. Women are also not allowed to count in the quorum and minyan (a prayer group), so they are not allowed to say or lead prayers or teach Torah in the Temple, but also this is changing. Women must take on the obligation to pray before they count towards a prayer group and if they neglect their duties to perform daily prayers then they are counted as committing sin, whereas men are rarely chastised for not fulfilling all obligations of daily prayer. Women can also have a very difficult time getting a divorce in Judaism, as the husband must be the one to issue a 'get' (a written document of divorce) and in many cases they simply refuse, but measures such as coercion, group exclusion and fining the offending husband have given the women some legal recourse and modern day marriage contracts (ketubba) builds in measures like what happens in the case of a divorce just like a prenuptial agreement does.
tl;dr;
Feminism is not always such an unjustified thing.
I like it when people ignore instead of ban.
I used to think the same thing. But why should other people have to put up with other's bad behavior? I say no. And people will never learn without motivation (ie: consequences) That said, you give them a chance.
]]>This is a forum. Not a ring side seat at Madison Square Garden where you get thrown into the ring whether you like it or not.
"It takes two to tango".
Nobody is "throwing" anyone "into the ring". You either climb in or you don't -- or, put another way, you either voice your opinion or you don't.
It is quite clear from your post that you have an opinion on the matters of feminism, religion, etc. Quite frankly, I don't give a damn about any of that. Just because I don't believe in something doesn't mean I have to argue with them. I can observe and make my own judgement about whether I want to believe something or hold a certain position.
Yesterday -- and this is a 100% true story that I've told a couple times now already -- I was walking down the street carrying an amp and my new electric acoustic ukulele, going to my favourite coffee shop. I was only about 10 steps away and a middle aged balding man wandered across the street towards me. I noticed he had his eye on me but I just walked passed him, but then he turned and followed me a few steps and asked "Excuse me sir, has anyone told you that the lord loves you and that you can be saved?" (slight paraphrasing)
I turned, smiled, got excited, and said "Yes, they have! People will wander right across the street and ask me things like that sometimes, it's very bizarre. I think they're recruiting or something."
He was completely lost for words, I paused and watched him take a couple backward steps from me. He was clearly bothered by my response. Then I said "Have a great day" and turned walked into the coffee shop.
I said hello to everyone when I got inside, grabbed a coffee, sat down and started playing around on my uke. The same guy came in, saw me, got a coffee and left the street corner without saying anything or approaching anyone else.
I wish he would have sat down. I would have played Hallelujah.
]]>Did anyone in the cafe ask you to shut up?
]]>Yesterday -- and this is a 100% true story that I've told a couple times now already -- I was walking down the street carrying an amp and my new electric acoustic ukulele, going to my favourite coffee shop. I was only about 10 steps away and a middle aged balding man wandered across the street towards me. I noticed he had his eye on me but I just walked passed him, but then he turned and followed me a few steps and asked "Excuse me sir, has anyone told you that the lord loves you and that you can be saved?" (slight paraphrasing)
I turned, smiled, got excited, and said "Yes, they have! People will wander right across the street and ask me things like that sometimes, it's very bizarre. I think they're recruiting or something."
He was completely lost for words, I paused and watched him take a couple backward steps from me. He was clearly bothered by my response. Then I said "Have a great day" and turned walked into the coffee shop.
I said hello to everyone when I got inside, grabbed a coffee, sat down and started playing around on my uke. The same guy came in, saw me, got a coffee and left the street corner without saying anything or approaching anyone else.
I wish he would have sat down. I would have played Hallelujah.
]]>
I sometimes wonder what response Jehovah's witnesses do expect. I walk past the same guy each Sunday morning, but he's always just standing there with a copy of the Watch Tower and not trying to talk to anyone. I think he's a bit uncomfortable standing there and even looks slightly embarrassed.
]]>"It takes two to tango".
Nobody is "throwing" anyone "into the ring". You either climb in or you don't -- or, put another way, you either voice your opinion or you don't.
Now that's not really the way it has been around here though. Be realistic. Something as simple as someone presenting a view that someone else didn't agree with was often turned into fight. Not a debate, and often someone was just out to prove themself right. Did the first person ask for it? Not really. The person who attacked them has the right to remain silent as well. Why do we allow people to force their opinions on others when they are the ones who should have simply let a differing viewpoint stand as what it was, just a simple opinion, and not an invitation for a fight.
It is quite clear from your post that you have an opinion on the matters of feminism, religion, etc. Quite frankly, I don't give a damn about any of that.
That's fine you don't have to give a shit. I don't care if people believe what I believe or not. That's your own choice. And that's not even really my opinion above, that's merely what I learned from my studies. Agree with it or don't I don't care.
Just because I don't believe in something doesn't mean I have to argue with them.
Thank you for proving my point. This is what bamccaig usually does, argues until someone can't take his junk anymore and who then decides to leave.
I can observe and make my own judgement about whether I want to believe something or hold a certain position.
See above.
Edit
Whatever. I'm just a looser with no onion.
Did anyone in the cafe ask you to shut up?
Haha, no, they even turn the music off. I play there all the time these days. At least once a week.
Now that's not really the way it has been around here though.
I disagree and I believe that it is as I said it is. Period. Not just here, not just anywhere. Everyone is directly responsible for their actions on here. You either join the fight or you don't. Nobody forces you to read anything. Nobody forces your hand to the keyboard. I am "being realistic".
Something as simple as someone presenting a view that someone else didn't agree with was often turned into fight.
I agree that people get aggressive. It is still your choice to be aggressive back.
Thank you for proving my point.
If that was your point in the last post I lost it somewhere between Genesis and Feminism.
]]>I disagree and I believe that it is as I said it is. Period. Not just here, not just anywhere. Everyone is directly responsible for their actions on here. You either join the fight or you don't. Nobody forces you to read anything. Nobody forces your hand to the keyboard. I am "being realistic".
I think you're being idealistic, not realistic. Post enough shit, and you make it hell for others. I don't believe people should put up with bullshit. If all you do is hide your head in the sand, absolutely nothing will change, or if it does, its for the worse (see current political bullshit in canada).
"Can't do anything about it, so i might as well not" <--- bull! you can and should.
]]>You either join the fight or you don't. Nobody forces you to read anything. Nobody forces your hand to the keyboard. I am "being realistic".
So you admit then it is generally a fight and not a debate. The thing is there are people who want to participate in friendly forums, but not in a fight. And then if you let people on your forums turn everything into some kind of holy war (if that's what you could call the act of pushing zealous atheism and other personal beliefs on people, which you claim to not want pushed on you, but you push on others), then it drives them away.
I'm glad that you are so proud that you put a man to shame for his beliefs. Granted he shouldn't really be pushing his beliefs on you, but you why do you have to tear his down to feel better about yours?
I agree that people get aggressive. It is still your choice to be aggressive back.
No, it is our right to not have to deal with agressive behaviour to begin with.
I think bam's got a lot of intelligent thoughts. But sometimes he just pushes his ideas on people, whether they want it or not, whether they asked for it or not. This is a forum. Not a ring side seat at Madison Square Garden where you get thrown into the ring whether you like it or not.
Just because I don't believe in something doesn't mean I have to argue with them.
Thank you for proving my point.
If that was your point in the last post I lost it somewhere between Genesis and Feminism.
Meaning, bamccaig doesn't have to argue with people simply because he disagrees. Nor does he have to turn disagreeing into a brow beating contest.
Oh, and sorry for bringing up such sensitive topics. I mean you are a male atheist after all. My bad. Didn't mean to offend you.
If people aren't allowed to express their opinions without being assaulted for them, then this is not a discussion forum. You know, where people discuss things.
]]>The real curse is that we waste time debating such issues in stead of actually contributing to the development of Allegro. If you have time to argue here about the amount of Allegro forum visitors that will fit on the top of a thread, then you have time to contribute. So get going, everyone here!
]]>Everyone shut up or I'll punch you.
]]>The real curse is that we waste time debating such issues in stead of actually contributing to the development of Allegro. If you have time to argue here about the amount of Allegro forum visitors that will fit on the top of a thread, then you have time to contribute. So get going, everyone here!
That's The Curse of the Programmer. Spot on.
This thread has enough lines to get a basic mind control addon working
]]>The real curse is that we waste time debating such issues in stead of actually contributing to the development of Allegro.
If ass-hats cause potential contributors to avoid the library and community completely, we all lose out regardless.
]]>There's all sorts of people in most programming communities. Look at how Linus runs kernel development by "Management by perkele". As long as the focus is on software development and not on other unrelated issues, this actually works rather well...
]]>There's all sorts of people in most programming communities. Look at how Linus runs kernel development by "Management by perkele" [en.wikipedia.org]. As long as the focus is on software development and not on other unrelated issues, this actually works rather well...
But what about my feels? Isn't it more important that everyone is included than actual progress?
]]>If ass-hats cause potential contributors to avoid the library and community completely, we all lose out regardless.
You do not know that, unfortunately. The people coming in and leaving because someone else in the project is oh so horrible most likely would never have stayed anyway. And the people storming out loudly because they hate someone so much probably would have left otherwise as well. In both cases it's just an excuse.
I'd say to the contrary, if you look any successful open source or private project some of the key people usually hate each other and one of them will leave during or before completion. Or the whole thing is run by an asshole who never tolerates any critics at all like Steve Jobs. It's just human nature
]]>You do not know that, unfortunately.
I know it for a fact. I've heard from several people that avoid allegro because of the community.
The people coming in and leaving because someone else in the project is oh so horrible most likely would never have stayed anyway.
You don't know that
I'd say to the contrary, if you look any successful open source or private project some of the key people usually hate each other and one of them will leave during or before completion. Or the whole thing is run by an asshole who never tolerates any critics at all like Steve Jobs. It's just human nature
I haven't heard Linus rant on and on about things that don't actually matter though. It's always technical issues, and its generally not personal. Oh, and he does take criticism. Many times he's been proven wrong, you just don't hear about it because it's not news-worthy. He takes it in stride.
What i have a problem with is things like sexism, racism, zealots, and people that will insult you just because you don't agree with them and ask them to stop being sexist, racist, or a zealot (or any mixture there of).
It is not worth having toxic people in your community.
]]>Perhaps a.cc should be split off. A forum dedicated to programming, contribution, and the such, where discussions must stay civil, fair etc, and we have https://www.opinions.allegro.cc/forums where members can say and do whatever the f*** they want. We actually really do have a bad reputation because of these forums. I have read it in many other forums, and it really does tarnish an otherwise great library.
We lost Trent a while back and like him or not, he was pretty helpful and contributed a lot. He left because of the community, not because of the library. A while back we lost Peter Wang; a pretty big loss. Once again, I don't think he left because of the library...
We really do need to be a harmonious, welcoming community that's about teaching, contributing, growing, etc. The OT section should really be in a subdomain. Allegro Development Board needs to be a little more welcoming too. It has improved because of some kind and dedicated members, but when I first started contributing, unless Peter Wang read my thread, not much was going to happen.
Telling people that their contribution has to be perfect or it will be rejected isn't very useful. Most of the time, even a novice will produce a half decent patch, and it's up to the more experienced to take some time to refactor it a little.
Builds and binaries will help a lot too. I see some great efforts being made for build automation and that is brilliant!
I have some dependency build scripts for iOS that I plan to clean up and propose at some point. Let's work together and breath some new life into the community!
]]>Telling people that their contribution has to be perfect or it will be rejected isn't very useful. Most of the time, even a novice will produce a half decent patch, and it's up to the more experienced to take some time to refactor it a little.
Or, we help the newbie to improve it themselves (which I prefer). I honestly don't remember anyone telling people that if their contributions weren't perfect they should GTFO.
Let's work together and breath some new life into the community!
This! A thousand times this!
]]>So you admit then it is generally a fight and not a debate.
I believe these occurrences are inconsequential.
The thing is there are people who want to participate in friendly forums
Yes.
if you let people on your forums turn everything into some kind of holy war (if that's what you could call the act of pushing zealous atheism and other personal beliefs on people, which you claim to not want pushed on you, but you push on others), then it drives them away.
I believe that this, too, is inconsequential.
The act of employing argumentation is to give reasons for your belief in a given circumstance. How you employ this utility will represent your own merit in whatever it regards.
I don't care if it's gay marriage, or feminism, the existence of planet X or the horrible atrocities that occur in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Your words are yours. These words are mine.
[edited for even more extreme liberal effect]
]]>Maybe Matt should allow members vote for temporary mute some who talk too much shit ;-)
]]>A + or - voting system would be awesome. I would think it would be difficult to incorporate into the existing infrastructure, though. I really like the reddit system of karma, but because we are such a small and unique community in comparison we would need a customized system for it to be an improvement of the current awesome power that is the allegro.cc forum system.
This place is the best. Don't you fucking kid yourselves.
]]>I really like the reddit system of karma, but because we are such a small and unique community in comparison we would need a customized system for it to be an improvement of the current awesome power that is the allegro.cc forum system.
I think Slashdot's system of moderation works way better at keeping disagreeing but informative posts at the top. Reddit is too easy and too gut reaction downvoting. Downvoting is supposed to be uninformative, but it's actually "I disgree" and "I'm offended."
Which means any hard pills to swallow are quickly squashed, no matter how correct and sourced.
I've had some of my most concisely written, properly sourced opinions downvoted like crazy. They love sweet stories (some of my top posts), but hate opinions that are contrary to the modern liberal thinktank. They're pro-science but only if it doesn't conflict with San Fransisco's opinion on anything--like 3rd-wave feminism. (1st and 2nd wave Feminism are not progressive enough and will also be squashed.)
I think Reddit would be much better if you could only post X amount in a day, and vote Y amount in a day. That way, you need to choose the really important ones instead of everything. And children with 20 hours a day of free time cannot have a disproportionate influence, as well as company shill accounts.
]]>That was what I was getting at. Maybe we don't need a general off topic discussion forum, just an allegro general topics forum. So we can all focus on Allegro. That will keep a lot of pointless arguments from happening. A separate forum such as allegro-using-btards.org could be set up to replace this sub-forum ...
]]>I think that you guys are missing the point that many regulars on these boards no longer use Allegro, and for its entire lifetime the off-topic board has always been the most popular. You think it'll increase productivity within the Allegro project to take it away? It might just be the nail in the coffin for the community and therefore the project.
]]>Yes I know that... all those people who used to use Allegro before but don't use it anymore now and don't contribute to it are hanging out here. While it's nice to have someone to chat with, and with all due respect to those people, but I doubt that they do the Allegro project itself much good. "We have a forum full of ex-Allegro users, please ignore them and their endless arguments". :/
]]>What if they're just not actively using Allegro, but still might later, and are also capable of answering general programming and game design questions?
]]>We have a forum full of ex-Allegro users, please ignore them and their endless arguments
I think that's a non issue. Leave allegro.cc the way it is (unfortunately with no way to ban people or they'd all have banned each other by now), and if there's any new allegro users who are actually interested in programming let them create a new forum
]]>The off topic forums don't need to be eliminated, they need to be de-populated of opinionated a-holes who don't seem to be contributing much to the prosperity of the community. Consistently and repeatedly spouting hateful offensive and derisive things should be grounds for encouragement to tell the people doing these things to get lost. Just because it's an off topic forum doesn't mean that its everyone's right to make it some kind of no holds barred boxing match. Nor does it excuse offensive speech and behavior that only serves to destroy and not build up.
If we don't hold ourselves to at least some kind of minimum standard ethic of behavior then we don't stand for anything.
]]>Answering Allegro or programming related questions certainly counts as contributing to Allegro. Would you stop doing that if this sub-forum disappeared? I certainly wouldn't. Normally I use this forum only for Allegro related stuff anyway.
]]>The off topic forums don't need to be eliminated, they need to be de-populated of opinionated a-holes who don't seem to be contributing much to the prosperity of the community.
No, they don't need to be 'de-populated of opinionated a-holes.' You might like it if that were the case, but everyone's lives' go on.
Just because it's an off topic forum doesn't mean that its everyone's right to make it some kind of no holds barred boxing match.
You're right, no one has a right to come here and be offensive to anyone else, because this forum isn't public property. In fact, no one has a right to post here at all. It has to be allowed by the owner of the site, and so far he may be giving that privilege.
The thing of it is, you don't have a right not to be offended either (and god knows some people can get offended at really ridiculous things, though I'm not saying whether or not that's the case here since I generally don't pay attention to this stuff.) If that was the case, we'd all be pretty screwed whether we intended to be an ass or not. It is not your right to have bambams shut up, as much as you might like the idea. However, you can feel free to try and dissuade him from any course of action you disagree with, but it's starting to look like(to me, personally) it's a waste of effort.
The alternative, or even supplemental course of action, is to work on yourself and make an effort not to worry about it so much. If someone says something you think is really off handed and ridiculous, it's not impossible to learn to think "Hey, that was really stupid. In fact, it was so stupid it's not even worth my time." It might take time and practice, but you end up controlling the situation with something you're got more control over: yourself.
For the record.... I don't agree with this premise that getting rid of people who offend you on this forum is going to turn allegro.cc into some sort of flourishing programmer's paradise. I've been to plenty of forums with fairly intelligent people and a few massively offensive people, and things keep on trucking.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go eat 10,000 PBCs.
P.S. Why don't people from IRC come to defend bambams? Because I'm perfectly happy to let him take care of himself, I'm not an apologist for him. My motivation for reading this thread is either to be entertained or analyse it and form my own opinion. I don't feel compelled to share all of my opinions with everyone. Also, I can't sleep and I'm really bored right now.
]]>"You're right, no one has a right to come here and be offensive to anyone else, because this forum isn't public property."
It wouldn't matter if it were public property, no-one has that right (to be offensive) without sanction. To be honest all this talk of public/private spaces and rights is nonsense, it seems to be about common-decency and getting-along, as history is littered with tragic examples of people not-getting-along.
And although I have enjoyed reading this allegro-soap-opera really life is too short to be getting worked up over something that is meant to help us have fun, and hopefully make fun things to share and communicate.
]]>I think people are making this a way too big of an issue. We've been spending far more time debating it than we actually spend dealing with the issues we say we're upset with.
Off-Topic Ordeals is already not listed in the recent threads by default.
So,
1) If there are a couple of threads you don't agree with, just don't post in them. Just because an issue, or stance is controversial doesn't automatically make it bad, and there will always be people with stances you don't agree with.
2) Clearly there are some unresolved issues with people's attitudes/disrespect in threads, so maybe everyone should just compromise and try to be a little nicer regardless of whether or not you think it applies to you. Just make sure you realize there's another person with a different experience on the other end of that monitor.
3) Focus on having fun and helping people.
]]>I think people are making this a way too big of an issue. We've been spending far more time debating it than we actually spend dealing with the issues we say we're upset with.
Not me. I continue to make sure #allegro is habitable, and it has worked. Much friendlier place to be. All it took was standing up and saying "NO MORE".
1) If there are a couple of threads you don't agree with, just don't post in them. Just because an issue, or stance is controversial doesn't automatically make it bad, and there will always be people with stances you don't agree with.
I do that all the time. And so do a lot of others. And that's lead to people being allowed to get away with proverbial murder. Its like an offshoot of Penny Arcades Internet Dickwad Theory. If there's no consequences for bad behavior, people will keep doing it, and will probably get worse.
2) Clearly there are some unresolved issues with people's attitudes/disrespect in threads, so maybe everyone should just compromise and try to be a little nicer regardless of whether or not you think it applies to you. Just make sure you realize there's another person with a different experience on the other end of that monitor.
What impetus does one have to do so? Other than having empathy? (which clearly some members do not have)
3) Focus on having fun and helping people.
I try, but then internet dickwads get in the way and I have to ignore the forums for a while.
]]>We're all internet dickwads (sometimes).
]]>We're all internet dickwads (sometimes).
I try not to
]]>Not me. I continue to make sure #allegro is habitable, and it has worked. Much friendlier place to be. All it took was standing up and saying "NO MORE".
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On the contrary, you did no such thing. You effectively just said, "I disagree with your ideas and so do a few special other members that are more important to me than you so you can't express your ideas anymore or I'll ban you!" You don't stop the discussion entirely. You just censor people you don't like. Freenode rules basically are "keep the temperature low", but you immediately go full chanop threat mode when your comfort zone is pushed.
I can only speak for myself, but I haven't changed any behavior in #allegro. I just haven't been challenged to a debate in a while, in large part because I haven't been as active in #allegro lately (due to work and life). I'm really the only person you would have asked to stop. Other people willingly discuss all topics, including yourself, and can get away with anything because you like them.
You're very proud of yourself because you're in a position of power that hasn't been challenged. I would find it very entertaining to have a freenode staff member active in #allegro for a year. You think you're some kind of hero defending the oppressed from the oppressor, but really you're just an oppressive hypocrite. I do not attack members (any more than they attack, but of course #allegro is typically a very [sarcastically] abusive channel).
]]>On the contrary, you did no such thing. You effectively just said, "I disagree with your ideas and so do a few special other members that are more important to me than you so you can't express your ideas anymore or I'll ban you!" You don't stop the discussion entirely.
*sigh* yet more unsubstantiated drivel.
I asked you to stop spreading hate. And yes, what you were doing was spreading hate.
Yes, your behavior has changed a lot lately. Used to be when ever someone even mentioned the word "woman" you'd go into full on hate mode on women.
You just censor people you don't like.
I sensor people who don't know how to behave in a respectable manner.
Freenode rules basically are "keep the temperature low"
Which you rarely ever did. You seemed to be there just to rile everyone up. Always picking fights and arguments, as well as spreading hate.
you immediately go full chanop threat mode when your comfort zone is pushed.
That is provably false. There are many times I'd love to just send warnings, but I don't as it isn't my place to enforce my ideals. It is however my place to make it comfortable for others. When they ask, I listen, within reason.
The funny part? I asked ONCE. Maybe twice. That's it. Somehow that makes me some overbearing power hungry dictator.
You think you're some kind of hero defending the oppressed from the oppressor, but really you're just an oppressive hypocrite
I'm not a hero. I am a channel op. I am there to keep the channel hospitable. When people threaten that, I ask them politely to stop.
I do not attack members (any more than they attack, but of course #allegro is typically a very [sarcastically] abusive channel).
You have repeatedly attacked me in a personal way, generally every chance you get, except when you can't come up with a convenient excuse to explain away my point.
As for #allegro being a abusive channel, it actually isn't. I honestly don't know where you get that from. These days its really quite a good place to be. If you're referring to me and Sevalecan being dicks to each other, its a mutual friendly poking.
It's amusing that any time someone even goes against you you claim power abuse and how they are against you in some deeply personal way.
]]>Bambam is his own spin doctor. The image of the lone rational thinker in the desert of group think, fighting imagined "dictators" and defending his freedom of speech. It's no use arguing against that.
]]>I'm going to repost my question, just so people who may have skimmed my last message can actually see it:
What do we all as a community want from this community?
I personally would like an open and friendly environment people can feel comfortable in, and not feel like they have to constantly bite their tongue lest they face the wrath of the louder more objectionable/argumentative community members.
]]>I asked you to stop spreading hate. And yes, what you were doing was spreading hate.
You demanded I stop saying things you disagreed with. It is your shallow opinion that I was spreading hate. It is not a fact, and I insist that it's slander.
Yes, your behavior has changed a lot lately. Used to be when ever someone even mentioned the word "woman" you'd go into full on hate mode on women.
At the time I was probably in the midst of being enlightened on the issues myself and motivated to discuss the topic with other intelligent people. I think you're exaggerating that I would trigger on any mention of women. Most often what would trigger the debate was the mention of Feminist ideals. Again, "hate" is your word. I don't hate, nor have I ever hated, women.
I sensor censor people who don't know how to behave in a respectable manner.
Admitting it is your first step to recovery. Next work on leaving out the excuses. Just for the record, whose definition of what is respectable in any particular context applies? There is no single definition for any context.
Which you rarely ever did. You seemed to be there just to rile everyone up. Always picking fights and arguments, as well as spreading hate.
I was there to have intelligent conversations with peers that I respected. Peers that happened to trigger debate by repeating seemingly innocent politically charged delusions without taking time to assess the value in what they're saying. The best way to avoid a "fight" is to keep those ideas to yourself.
That is provably false. There are many times I'd love to just send warnings, but I don't as it isn't my place to enforce my ideals. It is however my place to make it comfortable for others. When they ask, I listen, within reason.
It makes me uncomfortable to read politically charged assertions without a basis in reality.
The funny part? I asked ONCE. Maybe twice. That's it. Somehow that makes me some overbearing power hungry dictator.
It has been more than once or twice, and the main reason it hasn't been many more is because you wave the ban hammer to censor me.
When people threaten that, I ask them politely to stop.
You don't know what polite is. A polite moderator approach would be indifferent to the ideas themselves and it would target everybody, not a specific person.
"I don't care what anybody thinks about this topic, but it's getting a little bit heated in here so can we please change the subject?"
You have a habit of letting other people get their ideas in and then prevent me from responding to it. Fairness requires you to silence everybody on the matter simultaneously. Silencing only me is censorship. It has nothing to do with moderation. It's an abuse of power.
You have repeatedly attacked me in a personal way, generally every chance you get, except when you can't come up with a convenient excuse to explain away my point.
I'm sorry you feel that way because I personally respect you a lot and consider you a valuable peer. I strongly oppose your abuse of moderator privileges, hypocritical troll accusations, and loud support for censorship. All of that is circumstantial. You have a tendency to attack my character and myself so I respond in kind. I find it hard to believe that you feel like the victim in the exchange.
As for #allegro being a abusive channel, it actually isn't. I honestly don't know where you get that from. These days its really quite a good place to be. If you're referring to me and Sevalecan being dicks to each other, its a mutual friendly poking.
I am regularly harassed or "abused" in the channel, and I'm not alone. Most of us just take it because we understand that it's all in good fun (even if some people aren't always meaning to be funny). Maybe you're just oblivious to it because your judgment is clouded or you're a lesser target.
I'm not saying that it's something that necessarily needs to change. I find it fun most of the time, and I think that most participants do. When it does get out of hand it is usually short lived. The channel is attentive to distress calls.
Regarding Sevalecan, he is a routine target for the entire channel. It isn't just you that pokes fun at him. I can't speak for him, but I think that he has grown a thick skin from it and like myself takes it in stride. Of course, that doesn't mean that it doesn't still bruise from time to time.
"Stick and stones may break your bones, but words can break he-arts."
Most everyone loves Sevalecan though.
It's amusing that any time someone even goes against you you claim power abuse and how they are against you in some deeply personal way.
Aren't you? You don't mind me being here, as long as I don't say anything (at least nothing you disagree with)?
Bambam is his own spin doctor. The image of the lone rational thinker in the desert of group think, fighting imagined "dictators" and defending his freedom of speech. It's no use arguing against that.
I don't recall seeing you in IRC. Do you go by another name? If not then I really don't see what qualifies you to stick your hand in this fight. I'm more than happy to take you on if you'd like, but I'd rather not have to.
I'm going to repost my question, just so people who may have skimmed my last message can actually see it:
What do we all as a community want from this community?
I personally would like an open and friendly environment people can feel comfortable in, and not feel like they have to constantly bite their tongue lest they face the wrath of the louder more objectionable/argumentative community members.
Emphasis mine. Either you haven't been reading the thread or you're simplying ignoring the replies from people you don't agree with. Some have said that they want the forum censored and/or "troublemakers" banned, others have suggested getting rid of the off-topic board entirely, and others have said nothing needs changing and that if people want to do things differently they should create a new site from which to do it. Many people probably aren't even aware that this wasn't the official forum of Allegro, and I'm not even sure that it is now, though perhaps that has changed if the official one was shut down... Of course, the official forum was never as active as this one was at one time. Which is perhaps a bit of foreshadowing if certain people get their wishes.
]]>I like turtles...I mean, I make drum & bass:
]]>Let me sum my opinion on this thread.
What. The Fuck. Ever.
I don't see anything changing here. When people ask people to stop being offensive to others and to stop starting fights, whether or not 'someone else started it', they should stop. Period. This never happens. When people feel the need to challenge other people's ideas unto the point where they decide to leave a forum, that's unhealthy and it needs to change. Why do we need offensive members here again? Oh right, the general opinion here is that the right to free speech is the right to be rude, confrontational, offensive, and antagonistic towards people that are obviously wrong and who need to be corrected. When did we elect bamccaig to be our official forum asshole? And why does he continue to remain in that post?
Doesn't upheaval signal a need for change? Something's gotta change. Unless of course you want this forum to continue on its present course into oblivion. :/
So it's gonna be forever
Or it's gonna go down in flames
You can tell me when it's over
If the high was worth the pain
Got a long list of ex-lovers
They'll tell you I'm insane
'Cause you know I love the players
And you love the game
]]>
I was there to have intelligent conversations with peers that I respected. Peers that happened to trigger debate by repeating seemingly innocent politically charged delusions without taking time to assess the value in what they're saying. The best way to avoid a "fight" is to keep those ideas to yourself.
Sigh... :-p I don't get it. Why do we here or in the IRC channel insist on talking about completely irrelevant subjects with each other, here or in the channel, even though it causes plenty of in arguments like these?
Programming, game programming, C, Allegro or the Allegro project, tech news, your latest gadgets, that sort of stuff is OK to talk about. But why do we have to talk about inflammatory topics like feminism, religion, politics, etc? There are, or should be, other, better places for debates like those.
For me the topics are the problem. Why not just stay clear of inflammatory topics? Don't start about them, ignore them if mentioned by others.
Allegro now is too much like a debate club. I dislike it because I actually use Allegro and want the software to keep on improving. Before when Allegro development was more active the debate club did less harm. But now al these debates are getting in the way of the project itself. As I said in my first post on this topic, if you have time to waste on pointless debates here, why not help out with Allegro in stead. I'm sure helping out where you can will prove much more satisfactory than playing the forum warrior.
]]>Stumbled upon this tonight. Seems pretty relevant (you need to get past about a minute of idiots to get to the smart people):
That Ricky Gervais is a smart comedian.
]]>Off-Topic Ordeals is already not listed in the recent threads by default.
Not for me, or any other member as far as I know, because they're right there with the rest of them every time I look at the recent threads page.
And what about turning a thread about Muslims reputed to have killed Christians into a further mockery of God and Christ? This is the kind of stuff I am sick of. And I shouldn't really have to put up with.
But apparently it makes no difference whatsoever because the prevailing opinion here is bambams can be as offensive as he wants and its not my right to get upset. No one here will do anything about it anyway. It seems clear everything I have said has been mostly pointless. And oh I forgot, bamccaig is the real victim here, right? WTFE. And I should just get over it. Yeah. Sure.
]]>Referring to my personal strand of this conversation:
I don't recall seeing you in IRC. Do you go by another name? If not then I really don't see what qualifies you to stick your hand in this fight. I'm more than happy to take you on if you'd like, but I'd rather not have to.
I was just talking about what I saw on these forums. Well, I think I politely turn down your generous offer, thank you.
I don't know. Maybe feeding the troll with a big fat extra thread dedicated to him and his trolling is just the wrong thing to do? If everyone just completely ignored the ... "ideas" (wait... the substandard behaviour in question here) instead of overreacting on it, maybe that'd work?
@Edgar:
further mockery of God and Christ
I've seen you arguing about religious issues here for years and my general impression is you're a bit oversensitive on this topic.
Imagine a child that wants attention. If it knows you get upset on a certain topic, what is it going to do?
Edit:
Just realized I'm in difficult waters... I didn't mean to blame you, Edgar, I'm trying to encourage you to relax in a well-intentioned way so to speak, don't know how to say it.
This thread reminds me of a story I heard recently about a 25-hour cron job that ran daily. I need to be more active.
Is that how you saw it
To be honest, not exactly. I see that bambams blames women for being raped, but isn't that just a running gag? I don't know what to believe any more. I do know, however, that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink--and you certainly can't stop him from leaving for greener pastures. Bambams embodies each of these but the last, and that's what matters the most to me. I have little hope for changing his ways.
I did, however, remember a fable--not an Aesop fable but a very good one about a slow-witted villager who leaves his front door open before going out to work in the fields. He returns before sundown to find all his belongings missing. After reporting the robbery, his fellow villagers offer no help, only saying, "That's what you get for leaving your door open." The slow-witted villager says, "Oh," and goes home.
Only later, after the village chief's home is broken into, do the villagers realize they should have been more concerned with a criminal on the loose than condemning carelessness (which is not a crime).
]]>I've seen you arguing about religious issues here for years and my general impression is you're a bit oversensitive on this topic.
Imagine a child that wants attention. If it knows you get upset on a certain topic, what is it going to do?
Edit:
Just realized I'm in difficult waters... I didn't mean to blame you, Edgar, I'm trying to encourage you to relax in a well-intentioned way so to speak, don't know how to say it.
It's not even the fact that he openly mocks religion in general, but that he does it purposely, and with intent to provoke and upset people, which he does with other topics as well. His opinion is clearly more right than ours and we don't have a right not to be abused, according to some. If I'm getting offended now its because I've just had enough of it. It's driven people away, and it pisses me off, and we shouldn't have to put up with it anymore. And sometimes a child needs a good spanking. :/
]]>I don't know what to believe any more.
Believe this: none of it is a joke.
Only later, after the village chief's home is broken into, do the villagers realize they should have been more concerned with a criminal on the loose than condemning carelessness (which is not a crime).
So what do you suggest we should be focusing on rather than toxic behavior?
]]>So what do you suggest we should be focusing on rather than toxic behavior?
Maybe on the absolute truth? You and Edgar are constantly preaching the equality of man and woman. Where in your Bible is this written?
]]>As was said by several people, there is no such thing as one person with "toxic" behavior - it's always at least two.
]]>Maybe on the absolute truth? You and Edgar are constantly preaching the equality of man and woman. Where in your Bible is this written?
Maybe if you read what I posted earlier you would know the Bible is fairly male-oriented. Values of the time? I don't know. And we are talking about several thousand years ago so what was accepted then is obviously not what is or should be accepted now. Do you want women to be treated unfairly? To receive less pay? To have less rights than men? Etc...
there is no such thing as one person with "toxic" behavior - it's always at least two.
That's silly. One person can easily be considered toxic on his own. They don't come in pairs you know.
]]>Protip: The "supreme loser" of this Web site is (or at least was) a devout Christian. When he feels that you are abusing your privileges or trolling he is stern with his all powerful fingers. To assert that somebody is abusive towards Christians on these boards is pretty laughable to me, even if Matthew is busy with work and life (which he has neither confirmed nor denied). He still pops up from time to time, and you'll find that he typically shows up in most "controversial" threads from the past as well. I don't speak for the man, and I have a lot of love and respect for him, but I think that he has already spoken. If my beer soaked memory serves me I think that he has also made it clear that he generally rules this kingdom and community wishes are a secondary consideration.
Nothing at all stops you or the developers from creating your own on-topic forum. Good luck making people give a damn about a dying software tool. Allegro is and was great, but it is certainly lagging behind in technology by today's standards. Which doesn't matter for the project members who actually write and maintain Allegro. They enjoy it. They aren't doing it for fame. The same goes for the developers who rely on Allegro to get their work done. They enjoy using Allegro and that won't be affected by popularity contests. It's not going to make a forum come to life like this thread has either. Check the post counts. People are more invested in this thread than they are in Allegro and that should tell you something. Or not. Who am I to judge?
I suspect that "you people" just skip videos with a preconceived conclusion, but that's your loss. In either case, here's my response to waaaaah my religious beliefs are such a victim (the audio is sampled on a Dead Celebrity Status track on an awesome album, which is what I thought I'd find):
I bet you Jesus is just shivering in Heaven watching your struggle:
]]>Whatever Bam-Keg. You are the biggest hypocrite. In no way at any time have I attempted to force you to believe what I do. I have never encouraged you to believe on or in Jesus Christ or God or Buddha or the Dalai Llama or the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy either. You however push your atheist garbage on everyone else. All I ask is that you don't go around bashing my or other's beliefs, or women either. You clearly do not care about your behaviour. And no, I'm not gonna watch some trash video you posted as proof of your right to bash my beliefs.
Remember this? You in effect signed it when you first posted here.
This Membership Agreement is obviously not intended to be a legal document, but just a common sense, everyday agreement. Therefore, just because something isn't specifically mentioned doesn't mean anything.
General
I understand that being a member of Allegro.cc is a privilege, not a right. Therefore, I promise to act professionally, being courteous to all — even to those who probably don't deserve it. If I break this agreement, I understand that my account will be subject to termination or restriction.
I realize that this agreement is a living document and as long as I use my membership, I will abide by it.
The Forums
I will only post content that contains value; I won't post just to post. I will not spam, proselytize, flame, insult, or stir up trouble. I promise not to relentlessly argue when people do not care to hear. I will conduct all public conversations in my best English, avoiding using l33t speak, AOL kiddie talk, or an "e e cummings" style.
I realize that the posts I make become the property of Allegro.cc.
The Depot
I will only submit projects if I have the authority to do so. I will only submit projects that were made with Allegro. I understand that Allegro.cc reserves the right to reject any submission based on its content.
I give permission to allow Allegro.cc distribute any of my projects (freeware or shareware version) on its website, CD-ROMs, or other media.
How much of that have you broken lately? Huh, pal?
I will not spam, proselytize, flame, insult, or stir up trouble.
Read it and weep newbies.
]]>I'll be honest, I had to look up the definition of "proselytize". Nope, not guilty! I think that the agreement may have been modified in my 9 or so years, but in any case I think I'm good. How about you guys?
]]>Maybe if you read what I posted earlier you would know the Bible is fairly male-oriented. Values of the time? I don't know.
A few pages ago you claimed to exactly know what's right or wrong. If maybe today many people have changed their values, that does not mean all holy scriptures, the law of nature and the law of God must be rewritten.
And we are talking about several thousand years ago so what was accepted then is obviously not what is or should be accepted now.
It is only a few years since the 1960's, that people have changed their mind so much.
Do you want women to be treated unfairly? To receive less pay? To have less rights than men? Etc...
It is not really important what you or i am thinking. The important is what God thinks. And from the viewpoint of every holy scripture it is simply not true that man and woman are equal.
]]>I am posting in this thread because I am invested in Allegro. It's easier to bicker than to actually be productive, and that's why threads like these are unfortunately so "popular". I have to admit before I participated as well, but now I realize that was a bad idea. And I feel I have to keep pointing out that threads on controversial topics are a waste of everyone's time and to the detriment of the project.
If Allegro is dying, then what are you all doing about it? If you don't care enough about Allegro to help out, then I don't think there's much point in you all posting here. If you do, though then I'd like you all to consider how what you want to post is helpful. If it isn't then let it go and don't post your rant.
Religion, feminism, etc. are topics that create much heat and friction without anything good coming from it for Allegro. I think it's better to avoid such topics here or on IRC. And no we don't need a different forum. I rather think that the people posing here should behave a bit differently. Please take your personal struggles elsewhere.
]]>The idea that Allegro is dying is basically a self-fulfilling prophecy IMHO. Its repeated expression by people who don't help out is the only thing I really consider toxic here. Last time I checked, SDL wasn't really dying either. But we've been through that discussion already.
As this is an off-topic board, I don't see why ... off-topic discussions should be generally discouraged, though. Those who want to will help out anyway.
All these problems will be solved anyway as soon as mind control is ready.
]]>That's silly. One person can easily be considered toxic on his own.
Second person is the one to call them toxic, obviously.
If any one of you is without sin, let them be the first to throw a stone. (Jesus Christ)
In case anyone here actually is Christian.
]]>In rebuttal to how I'm supposedly not Christian because I'm accusing bam of being a dick, here is the actual story of John 7-8 according to the NRSV and wikipedia.
The passage
John 7:53-8:11 in the New Revised Standard Version:
53 Then each of them went home, 1 while Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him and he sat down and began to teach them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery; and making her stand before all of them, 4 they said to him, ‘Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. 5 Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?’ 6 They said this to test him, so that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, ‘Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.’ 8 And once again he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders; and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus straightened up and said to her, ‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’ 11 She said, ‘No one, sir.’ And Jesus said, ‘Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again.’
Guess what he was writing in the sand? The men were guilty of adultery too. Am I guilty of what I have been accusing bamccaig of? Maybe, but hardly to the degree that I have had to put up with from him.
Note what Jesus said to the woman :
Go your way, and from now on do not sin again.
Will bambam stop behaving the way he has been? I doubt it.
]]>Second person is the one to call them toxic, obviously.
I 100% disagree.
What's so bad about calling someone out on their behavior?
I was hoping we could steer this discussion on track, but it seems like it's not possible. I know it's impossible to get bambam's to have a reasonable civilized discussion, i was just hoping other people would
Those who want to will help out anyway.
Maybe. For a time. then they get to know our most treasured members, like bambams. Then they decide its not worth the trouble.
I'm starting to have second thoughts about being here honestly. I don't like being angry. And people like bambams make me angry. I already have to avoid the forums for a time just to let it subside, but is it worth the trouble at all for me at this point? That is something I'll have to decide.
I've been here so long, its like home.
]]>https://www.allegro.cc/cc/theme-css?xml=off
.m7536 { display: none; }
What is so hard about that?
Or
#b-4 { display: none; }
You can already filter Off-Topic out of recent threads.
If you walk past a concealed trash can, do you open it up and smell it? Or are you able to pass by without doing that?
]]>If you walk past a concealed trash can, do you open it up and smell it? Or are you able to pass by without doing that?
If you walk by shit, do you wish someone didn't leave it there? Would you stand by and let someone squat on the sidewalk and shit in the open without saying anything?
]]>If you add those lines of code, you won't walk by any.
And another man's trash is another man's treasure.
]]>And another man's trash is another man's treasure.
So you're glad when ever someone stops by to take a dookie in your yard?
I don't actually want to ban or ignore anyone. Especially those that have shown they are useful and able to behave like civilized human beings.
]]>So what do you suggest we should be focusing on rather than toxic behavior?
I should have clarified. That fable was intended to illustrate absurdity in blaming victims: If the village idiot leaves his front door unlocked, don't persecute him if he is robbed. If a women dresses like a slut, don't persecute her if she is raped. Persecute the criminal.
]]>So you're glad when ever someone stops by to take a dookie in your yard?
Yeah, it reminds me how fortunate I am to own my own yard.
]]>@Matthew Leverton
I guess that's the problem, some people just want to open the trash can to get crap out and throw it at other people. But I see the point, it may be better to have a trash can then to have the litter piling up all over the place.
At least, could you make the off topic forum less prominent and come with a warning? Perhaps put it in the bottom of the list, of forums, mark it with a warning about the "trash can" it is, etc?
]]>Yeah, it reminds me how fortunate I am to own my own yard.
*sigh*
This is the kind of thing i'm getting sick of.
]]>It is your own personal responsibility. I don't personally mind bambam's posts. Sometimes I read a paragraph, laugh at how naive it is, snort a bump of my own nostalgic past, and move on to the next post. Other times he really does say some insightful things, and I can respect that he really is quite intelligent.
I'd admit that some are pretty bad. He openly attacks someone's character in the first post of this thread. Tsk tsk.
Seriously though, the controls are in place for you to manage your own experience here.
]]>This thread makes me sad.
]]>I'll see your Friday, and raise you:
]]>Seriously though, the controls are in place for you to manage your own experience here.
Basically what you are saying here is It's my fault I'm bothered by other people's insults and trolls, and that if i don't like it i should leave? I don't want to leave. But it seems that the majority here really don't give a shit, and are happy to put up with anything so long as they aren't attacked directly.
I've become sick of that attitude. "It doesn't affect me, and we shouldn't and can't do anything about it, so lets just pretend it doesn't exist, and blame the people it does affect".
Here's what I have to say to that: *&^$ all'yall.
Other times he really does say some insightful things, and I can respect that he really is quite intelligent.
The good does not outweigh the bad.
I'd admit that some are pretty bad. He openly attacks someone's character in the first post of this thread. Tsk tsk.
People should be admonished for their bad behavior. If they continue, there should be more serious consequences. If you do nothing, it continues, and often gets worse.
]]>Hey Moose, try to chill a little
We've all said our peace. Let's just see what happens now, and try not to fight anymore.
]]>Yeah, I'm caring less and less as we speak. About the forums here in general.
]]>Basically what you are saying here is It's my fault I'm bothered by other people's insults and trolls, and that if i don't like it i should leave?
No, I was following with the thread and referring to ML's suggestion to update your custom CSS file so that people who you find offensive or insulting will no longer appear on the forum. How did you come to the conclusion that I said you should leave?
But it seems that the majority here ... are happy to put up with anything so long as they aren't attacked directly.
I'm even ok with being attacked directly
Come at me, bro!!!!!!11111`~
How did you come to the conclusion that I said you should leave?
Just hiding all of one individual's posts solves no problems what so ever.
Well, here's my solution, I'll be disabling the OT forum on my recent threads list.
]]>Just hiding all of one individual's posts solves no problems what so ever.
I was under the impression that the problem was you didn't want to see those kinds of posts here. If it's more than one individual, you can add multiple users to the custom CSS.
I'm not sure what the problem is if making it disappear doesn't even solve it... but if you don't like the OT forum at all then your solution of hiding the entire thing fits just as well.
]]>Basically what you are saying here is It's my fault I'm bothered by other people's insults and trolls
You can't control other people, mein Führer. The only one that you can control is yourself, and your reactions to other people. To them you can only accept, and choose your company (well, I guess sometimes you can control someone else, but you can't really always do that and I for one didn't like that).
That's the responsible thing, and what you get taught to be professional. Like when a guy is judgemental and moralize, he might get "kudos" from the likeminded, but he also crosses everyone else. But I suspect that the only people that are happy to see that are people who want to see that but don't want to do it themselves because they don't want to be dirty want you to get dirty for them.
And then I suspect that they say things to encourage the gullible to do that for them. So I suspect that doing that for them would make me look like I'm being their dog and a subservient place in the societal hierarchy.
But I am an individual and my own boss.
]]>If you have a beautiful house and you have a designated room where people can do whatever they want, including piss and shit in that room, even if specific individuals avoid that room, there will still be a stench of piss and shit throughout the house. Moreover, new people that will come visit your house will eventually walk into that room, and they might leave and never come back to your otherwise beautiful house. What's more, those people will go to other people's houses and spread the word that your house smells like piss and shit; completely omitting the fact that you have an otherwise beautiful home and a nice community of people that visit.
]]>You people are just silly. Tomasu can turn off posts from users he deems offensive, and that solves the problem for him. Tomasu isn't talking about himself, he is talking about the community.
Growing and maintaining a community is not so simple as telling people to ignore things they don't like. Even if you give people the tools to make doing so trivial, the community will suffer under such simple constraints.
I would think this obvious, but the goal here isn't to hide the offensive from overly sensitive eyes. The goal is to push and prod all members of the community to higher standards for their own behavior. If a member acts in a way below the standards of the community sometimes, by choosing to simply ignore the problem the standards of the community as a whole are lowered.
It doesn't matter if one does truly great things most of the time if the rest of the time they're being an ass. It's the job of the community to push reprimand that individual and see they change their ways. If they won't, then they should be cast out.
]]>While you guys were busy fighting, I just spent the best part of two weeks in Germany with my other half
bambams, do you think your girlfriend would enjoy this community?
]]>bambams, do you think your girlfriend would enjoy this community?
I don't think mine would. She doesn't like computers, and she doesn't like spending time online. Unless you count scrolling through Facebook posts on her phone and tapping on "like" for every one without even reading it.
Do you think yours would?
]]>No
]]>I'm going to Germany this fall.
]]>What for?
]]>Germany is a madhouse these days. If there is no strike you can even travel inside germany. There you see giant areas nobody wants to live anymore, especially in former GDR. The big towns are overpopulated with East Europeans, Africans and Asians, so you will find a bed only for fantasy prices. And Prussias Glory is nothing but history.
]]>Well... er... not quite.
]]>And then, Matthew arrived, and ...
]]>