This is not a new idea of mine, nor anyone else but I thought I might as well post it anyways. Any *nix user has probably grown to love the console. While bash and vim are quite nice apps like htop and mutt deserve equal praise. I love the fact that these apps can be easily run remotely in a screen session and that i never have to touch a mouse to do work. So much thought has been put into ease of use because hiding in a menu or dialog box somewhere is not possible. Key bindings are really nice. There are still many important apps that i think are best done in console.

Ah yes, console apps can be much fun.

Considering I'm installing LFS on a VM, I have to deal with the console.

I think my main reason for disliking Windows is the lack of a decent shell, and command-line tools.

I hated that too. At least before I got the decent shell and command-line tools from MSYS .

my spelling:P sucks so i hate command-line tools.

But they aren't decent! The terminal emulator for MSYS sucks (So does cmd.exe)

I wanted a simple gotoxy() facility without all the WriteConsole() nonsense, so I looked in winduhs help for how to install ansi.sys on XP. After following the instructions to the letter (and a reboot), ansi.sys was still not running. WinBug #205345690

On Windows, you could use the new PowerShell.

Linux made me love the console too, but I could never get used to stuff like mutt or console-vim; I like Sylpheed and gvim better.

I few weeks ago i found a really nice process manager called htop. Its basically top on steroids. For example you can scroll down to your process and send it any signal you want in a keystroke or two. Its very straight forward to use.

http://htop.sourceforge.net/index.php?page=screenshots

Sucks how? Haven't had any problems with it myself.

i think cygwin is invaluable but fails to bring the whole experience. Cut and paste is lacking for instance (it uses a standard windows console! yuk!). Not everything is in the right place.

Did you try startx?

Well, it's ugly Does it have both intelligent copy & paste, as well as scrollback?

I don't know what you mean by intelligent C&P, but if you mean middle-click copying, then yes. It's configurable.

And how is it ugly. Well, OK, the default colors are crap, but what's the reason to keep them?

I'm not trying to convert you or anything, I'm not a MSYS zealot - I'm just curious because it has always worked for me whenever I needed an able console.

EDIT: Ok, it seems it's not as configurable as I had previously thought. Sorry. It appears you can't change the default colors .

EDIT2: Though if you change the original prompt to something non-retarded, you can set your own colours with ease... e.g. `printf "\03340;37m"`.

Yes you can.

{"name":"590441","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/0\/1\/012ca4010493b1111f31d28aada2ec9d.png","w":667,"h":375,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/0\/1\/012ca4010493b1111f31d28aada2ec9d"}

Console apps, yeah, but not for everything. Just try to use links instead of Firefox... or tin, mutt, sendmail, fetchmail instead of Evolution.

The GUI version of VIM is still better than the console edition, and for an application I don't use every day a simple GUI interface is better than any of these overcomplicated short-cut-only systems.

Another problem I had with MSYS was that it emulates a UNIX environment. I really want a version of bash that support DOS drive letters and things. I mean, I can even handle /d:/path, with / being a pseudo-directory containing only drive letters.

I don't really understand what you meant with all that, but I find the drive letter implementation quite comfortable and fast to use, actually it's much faster than the Windows command line equivalent (e.g. /c vs. <tt>C:</tt>).

Do that regularly. Actually, links is very easy to use. Try clicking in the top of the console window, and you'll get a flashy menubar with pulldown menus.

I don't know tin, but sendmail and fetchmail are not e-mail clients. As for mutt against Evolution... I use mutt almost daily and looked at Evolution once a while ago (years, possibly, can't remember), found it too confusing at first glance and never looked at it again.
That said, I do use KMail to handle multiple mail accounts.

Fun isn't it, how people value different things.

Oh, definately.

Heh, it's my turn not to understand In MSYS, can I touch /arbitrary_file? And is C actually mounted at /c?

/ is the MSYS root directory (e.g. C:\MSYS), but the Windows drives are accessed in the following way:
/c for <tt>C:</tt>
/d for <tt>D:</tt>
/c/WINNT for C:\WINNT
etc.

Come on, I'm starting to think you didn't even use it once .

Honestly, I used it to compile Allegro, and because it was so ugly, never went back That scrollbar is hideous! Also I have Cygwin and MSYS memories both to sort out

And I suppose some of you are thinking that I'm just searching for a reason to not like it, but this is my second reason for disliking windows: Windows' GUI is ugly and inefficient. KDE is pretty and I have it streamlined for my machine.

Buhu. Big deal. It sounds like you have ran out of reasons.

Yes.

No it isn't. I used KDE for a couple of months before I sswitchedto Gnome which I am currently using on the Linux side. Still, Windows XP:s GUI is faster than both of them. At least it my configuration.

You can change how Windows looks as well you know.

ahh.. now that there is one of the things I love about Linux! How very configurable things are if you can be bothered to learn how! Once you have a setup that suits you it's awesome.. and devestating when you lose it all for want of a backup! Been there done that multiple times...:-/

well yes but... well it seems that you're frequently running into walls with modding Windows.. you often seem to need this App or that explorer replacement to be running first, and I always seem to be put off even trying with Windows. The default is just... accepted and I never really feel like tryying to customize things to fit my needs or tastes..even if that would improve my personal productivity. I dunno maybe it's just my Twilight Zone outlook on things...

Sure, but I can't get it to display a task bar on my second monitor that only displays the windows that are on that monitor without paying for some third party extension. And theres no real virtual desktop support.

Its xaw3d for peatsake. god aweful.

MSYS is ok.

Although i have had maybe a few frustrations, they have mainly stemmed from not remembering what the copy eequivelant of shift+insert is.

What pisses me off about windows a lot is a open a folder, and i decide that i want a prompt, so i right click and then "oh yeah, windows".

then i have to go down, start, run, cmd. Copy and paste from address bar to cmd after "cd ".

That and the \ vs / thing. I mean i an't even copy+paste from the address bar into MSYS. And MSYS IS ugly. Why can't it look good, what about gterm? Something like that would be a BIG advantage, especially with opacity as a shift+scroll wheel/arrow keys or something, so that i don't have to drag the window out of the way to see what it is i want to type.

Plus ctrl+alt+Fn or ctrl+alt+T don't work. That would be good though.

Lastly, window's idea of window focus blows chunks. The worst is having to click the winamp playlist to scroll the playlist, then clicking the winamp player to scroll volume.

Why not focus on mouse over? I found an option in tweakUI or something for x-mouse i think it was called, but that was AWEFULL! Nothing like in gnome at all!

It was raising windows all over the place. I couldn't stand it. There is a HUGE difference between "raise" and "focus"

Having to click specific windows in a media player to get focus is bad enough.. having a window blast across your gaming session because someone sent you an IM or your Anti-Vrus decided to update or whatever is just about a keyboard smashing offense at times for me!! Thank GOD for TweakUI!

Well, you can't blame MS for that one. The IM-software (or anti-virus) programmers didn't have to program that behaviour into the software. MSN doesn't interrupt full-screen apps.

Well, I can imagine you wouldn't think it's inefficient if you'd never seen better Heck, the windows don't even snap to each other!

Tools such as StyleXP exist, but cost money. Without those, I find the GUI to be quite ugly (actually, even those tend to not work so well, with lots of little oversights in interface). Also, assume that I am using the MS virtual desktop switcher. Show me the way to make Windows switch to my Gaim window when I press Ctrl+Shift+Enter then G, or X-Chat window when I press Ctrl+Shift+Enter then X, or Firefox when Ctrl+Shift+Enter then F, or terminal when I press Ctrl+Shift+Enter then T. Show me how to make Gaim conversations and X-Chat windows "desktop utilities" that show up on all desktops, and not in the Alt+Tab list. Also, make the terminal emulator completely decoration-less, and on all desktops, and not in the Alt+Tab list as well. Make it so that when I scroll over my desktop background, it switches virtual desktops. Finally, and most importantly, remove the task bar. I want my system tray rising vertically from the bottom right corner of my desktop, and my clock, which auto-hides, on the top left corner. The finished product.

And I'm not a Windows newbie, either. Hell, I'm probably one of the biggest proponents of .NET in this community, use Windows daily at work, and when I have a laptop, on that. Some of the best applications only exist on Windows (specifically, MSVC), as well as many games.

Look, I know it's picky, but in all honesty, what are the real differences between Windows and Linux? I would use Windows if KDE (and Amarok) worked on them. Operating system selection, for me, comes down to those two main points: the terminal emulator as well as associated tools, and the looks of the GUI.

[append]

There's a Microsoft PowerToy to do just that.

Oh yeah, I want a transparent terminal emulator also, but only a transparent background

Although I disagree with your focus-follows-mouse preference, I do agre that using the scroll wheel should focus, but not raise, the widow. I use that a lot fo reading web pages while I have chat apps open in the foreground.

It's not the job of the application to manage windows, it's the job of the window manager That said, Microsoft has specific rules for allowing windows to steal focus, and what he described should happen. Perhaps since XP SP2, I'm not sure. That said, KDE's focus stealing prevention is much more configurable than Microsoft's if the default don't do it for you.

Yeah Windows is lacking in that area. Don't confuse me for a Windows zealot as I use both systems. And neither of them is perfect.

That's a simply registry tweak. You can get a right click alternative named for example "Cmd prompt from here", and you get a command prompt from that path. So this problem is due to your lack of knowledge.

Well I've used KDE, Gnome and Fluxbox over the years. But sure it might be inefficient in the sense that you can't control it as much using the keyboard. I wouldn't know, I use the mouse mostly when I'm in a GUI. Check this guide out, perhaps it's something useful in there. It's faster than both KDE and Gnome on my machine, in opening Windows and such. Which got to be part of itd "efficiency" as well.

See my append above, if you haven't already

I skimmed over the guide, and I'm fairly certain that it's not possible to have Windows select windows on keyboard shortcuts. Actually, it's not possible in kwin either. It's a software called KHotKeys, and Ctrl+Shift+Enter puts focus on my system tray, and while my system tray is focused, F gives focus to Firefox, etc. The application is probably moderately trivial to write for Windows, but my point is that it is a part of KDE already

Well then KDE beats Windows in that sense. It sounds quite great. I'm not pleased with the speed of KDE or Gnome, compared to Windows they feel slower to me. I'll try Fluxbox later on to get some speed.

Hm. Perhaps we should get back on track? Whatever the track was. This thread went off topic quite early.

Agreed that's true (and I hopefully didn't try to blame MS for that one!) I know focus is an optional feature but it IS enabled by default as I recall.. which I think tends to explain the prevalence of programs stealing focus on Windows.
No less a programmer lapse though definately!

Kent, Not sure if you saw my email, Your avatar seems to be broken in some way. It animates out of controll on Konqueror causing insane CPU usage. If you could fix it Konqueror users everywhere will love you

You already saved a copy for a bug report, right?

Yes, the GUI is visibly more laggy than Windows, in my experience. It's one down side that I've gotted used to, though. Also, I'm sure this wouldn't be so big an issue if I were using XGl, or didn't have my processors clocked down to 375 MHz on idle.

Posted it a day or two ago

Granted, but the window manager is told by the application how it wants it's windows to behave. Automatically stealing focus is NOT the default behaviour.

Theres hints. but thats it. kwin however lets you specify a global "focus" mode, and settings per "Window" or per "application". quite handy.

It's flat-out disallowed, actually. I don't know about on window creation, but I'm fairly certain it obliges the same rules that existing windows do. One exception may be system notifications, i.e. balloons. For more information (Remarks section)

Perhaps I should look into using XGl instead of normal rendering then. I have a GeForce 7800GT so it should perform better I guess. I'm a bit attracted to Fluxbox anyway, I like it minimalistic. With ROX and a couple of other programs it's looking great as well.

Waiting for Fluxbuntu to get more mature or switch to Gentoo might be best. I'm a bit afraid of Gentoo though as I'm not that good at Linux yet (I get by, but when some obscure hardware is giving me trouble I'm completely lost).

You should switch to Windows man!!!1!1 Actually I haven't seen any mail from you. Did you post it to my gmail address? (I have forum PM's disabled.)

I converted my animated GIF from a big coloured version using ImageMagick. I'll remove it then as you already filed a bug report.

Now when you talk of window managers you mean Linux right? I am quite likely to be wrong but I recall that under Windows taking focus IS (or maybe Was?) the default behaviour.. It has been a long time!

Yup.

Thank you

A window manager is the software that manages the windows on the screen. Windows' is built into the kernel (which is probably why the software is named Windows, after all).

See my post above where I explained that under Windows taking focus is strictly prohibited, and why it might have happened to you.

Then I guess I'll have to start browsing through my spam folder before deleting it. I'm surprised that it went into the spam folder as we have had mail contact before.

It's done.

Far as I could tell, in Windows the window that has focus has to be raised to the top. I agree that it's annoying. Focus follows mouse is a really great thing if you're used to it, but I suppose it's a personal preference.

Could mean Windows equally well. Granted, I don't think Windows makes a distinction between the graphics "server" (I know, Windows isn't client/server based like X is), the desktop and the window manager, but you can still refer to the thingy that manages the window in Windows the window manager.

Or AIGLX, which is built into Xorg 7.1, and the latest nVidia drivers support. I'm using it right now. Only downfall is that you need to use compiz or beryl to get the flashy OpenGL goodness.. and being GTK based, well.. there's a bit left to be desired.

But if you're not caring for OpenGL and just want a faster desktop, nVidia's drivers have had options for that that've worked since Xorg 6.9. Turn on compositing and renderaccel, and load up any compositing manager you want.

I install the mouse drivers from Labtec, and I get exactly that behavior. I can't stand the default behavior myself.

In my view console can be easier once you know the program and what commands to use for what. With windows and non-console tasks, you don't have to remember any commands. You can basically mess around with things until you figure it out visually, which I love.

Potentially, but I can do the same thing in bash, to an extent. If I'm searching for a command to do something, try a few combinations of things. For instance, suppose I wanted to modify the config file for a software called privoxy (a web proxy). I would first type "nano ". Since I know most config files go into etc, I'll try "/etc/priv" and hit tab. It will fill in "ivoxy", meaning /etc/privoxy is a directory. Now I hit tab twice, and it prints me a list of files in that directory. So I know to edit "settings.default". When I open that up, I'm greeted by a table of contents, listing each section of the config file. Each setting is described in comments.

Privoxy is just one example. Most configuration files are documented likethis, in many cases more documentation than you can fit in a GUI without using a separate help viewer.

So you can see how, after knowing just a little about using the console, your knowledge can grow easily.

What you just typed there is something no one with no computer skills would ever figure out without reading documentation. A GUI is a sort of self documentation. I hit start menu and see something called Control Panel. Hey, that must control a bunch of stuff. From there everything is easy. I don't think it's a question that humans learn better visually, and that is why the GUI is the best way to learn. Then once you learn how things work you can progress to the console to speed your tasks up.

Right that is not known to every newbie. That's why I said "after having just a little knowledge about the console". (I assumed the user had knowledge of how to edit text files, where most configuration files go, and bash completion.) Some knowledge is needed to work in the GUI, also. Specifically, where to go to get to the GUI settings for the setting he wants. My point is that the same trial-and-error proces exists in both places.

You're joking. The option I want is usually behind a button on a tab in a dialog hiding behind a button in a tab marked "Advanced - don't touch" in another dialog. And that's assuming I can find it.
Ok, that may be a little exagerated, but I really do have a hard time finding some settings in Windows. It's not straightforward.

I'm not saying it's straightforward, I'm saying without documentation you have a fighting chance of exploring around and finding what you need. With a console you don't have that option. Without docs or prior knowledge of commands your odds of figuring out a command and how to use it is slim. I like the fact that I can explore and find things out in Windows. I don't enjoy weeding through docs. That and not having to go into a text file and edit some properties where one typo or other mistake makes it not work. That's all I'm saying.

When using console you need to know two basic things:

• tab completion

</li>
I think it is about as basic knowledge as right clicking in GUI

Honestly, the same thing is in a console. Looking for a utility to apply xslt, for instance: "xslt", tab, tab. If you have multiple ones, run each one with "--help". It works wonders.

Standard operating procedure for finding a program: type it in and see if it's installed. Try man "thingie" to see if the See Alsos have anything. emerge -s "topic" to see if there are any packages are there. Google for it. Typically a package will be listed in the summary on the first page, so try to emerge that. That done, look at what it installed in /usr/bin, and run it with --help. Maybe check a man page.

I mean, even without the man pages, --help (or the program with no args) is very handy.

I don't even know what you are talking about here.

Thats because you're not trying

Wow. Lets all ship our computers without documentation!!! Sometimes a 2 second google or a 5 second app --help or man app will cover everything you need. Honestly though... i tried using word today for the first time in quite a while. I'm used to using latex... and i stuck in a text box but it stuck that inside a picture frame.. There were hidden menus and a million buttons and dialogs and everything. I had no idea what i was looking for so i got confused and gave up.

I guess the point is that no matter which software you use you need a 'search image'.. meaning you have to know what you're looking for to find it.

Unless software is inherently intuitive or comes with some documentation or good "google support" i will use something else regardless.

Or /? if it's a DOS console.

It's spelled LaTeX! nitpick smash!

If we're being nitpicky... it IS spelled latex, it's just usually formatted as LaTeX.

No it's case sensitive. You should always spell it LaTeX.

We were being nitpicky, remember? Capitalization does not effect spelling.

Yeah I'm trying to go winning out of the argument anyway. Still, it should always be formatted LaTeX, not just usually.

Not that easily.

But I didn't say it should usually be formatted that way, I said it is usually formatted that way. Though, knowing the inherent laziness of most people, it probably isn't.

Well. The discussion wasn't really very interesting. Let's get back to the other off-topic discussion.

That's right. It's stell LaTeX though, for the following reasons:
The L is a capital for Lamport, the guy who wrote the package. You don't spell his name lamport, now do you?
The T is not actually a "t", it's a "tau", and therefore should not be written "t".
Likewise, the X is not an "x", it's a "chi". For that reason, it's typeset "X".
So the proper spelling is indeed LaTeX, the pronunciation is la-tech, not to be confused with latex (as in rubber).

Sorry for the diversion, carry on.

TO be a real asshole its spelt: http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/images/tex.png

Ya see you didn't make the numbers float up and down....

ps: /usr/bin/latex

It's not numbers, it's letters.

Not when you're using plain text it's not. I'm not sure if I got that from Lamport's book or the Not So Short Introduction, but when using plain text, the spelling is LaTeX.

Anyway, did we have enough fun debating this?

It says so in "Not So short.." anyway.

If we're going to make distinctions, then in English (or any language using the Roman alphabet), LaTeX and latex (and LATEX, laTEX, LAtEX, etc.) are all spelt the same.

WTf... leave it to computer scientists to get anal and start a debate over piddly details.

snorts actually in epidoe #s03.15 you can clearly see the shadow from the microphone boom.

I think its time to close this thread.. it changed direction 5 times or so.

Not at all. Capitalisation is a part of spelling. My name is spelled Evert, not evert.

According to my Oford Dictioary, my Collins dictionary, dictionary.com (which uses the Random House dictioary), and the online Webster's dictionary, spelling is ONLY based on the order of the letters. It doesn't matter if a letter is upper case or lower case or not, it's still the same letter.

Just because you write it as Evert does not mean that it is not spelt the same as evert.

It may not be a "law" of spelling, but in certain cases the capitalization of certain letters is how a company wants you to spell a certain product. It usually has a meaning behind it. So yes, in some cases it does matter as some of the meaning may be lost otherwise, but no, in general capitalization doesn't have anything to do with spelling. I think that is something we can all agree on.

Ok, maybe English is different then. In Dutch, there is a spelling difference between capital and lower case letters up to the point that writing a word with one or the other is wrong.
In this case it's even simpler though. Why is it spelled LaTeX and not latex? Because the authors say it is, that's why.

How about this: console based on commands ("do this", "cat that") or menu for selecting operations (ncurses; "dt", "ct")? I'm talking about from the perspective of an application which won't have variable commands.

Specifically, I'm wondering if one couldn't design a MUD better by using an ncurses interface instead of the standard "write what you are doing" method.

Indeed. I was just being "nitpicky" and insisting on the exact dictionarey definition of spelling. It's Kent's fault really, he started it.

To me, picking nits is like eating Pringles... I just can't stop!

I definitely agree about the importance of the distinction between LaTeX and latex, as they are used to refer to two different things. I was just being pedantic.

Yeah. But we are all sad people here.