I took my car out today because I finished rewiring and installing my rear speakers. I was playing around in a parking lot for a very short time (two reverse 180 spins) and much to my surprise, my brake pedal went to the floor! My brakes weren't working anymore! I had to pump it to get my car to slow down. No longer having any appetite for fun, I went to leave the parking lot... and couldn't stop. So I pump my brakes over and over locking the tires momentarily each time. It was very loud to say the least (I can't normally lock them that easily in clear weather, as far as I can remember).

The thing is, by time I got to the highway, it wasn't so bad. And by time I got home, it was just about back to normal. It just had a little give left in it.

Now, I know air can get into brake lines and add a mushy feeling to it. However, mine have always been responsive ever since I replaced the rotors and brake pads. Moreover, it doesn't make sense how laying off the brakes (which I weren't using that much) would somehow "cure" them of this problem. I could see them maybe overheating and slipping, much like a clutch does. But I can't see any reason why I'd have zero resistence to pushing the pedal down, and it'd fix (ever so temporarily!) with pumping. It was like I had no hydraulic pressure on the pads and I had to pump it to get it going. This is different from having no power brakes at all, where it's just harder to press and you can't get as much.

I don't have to work the next morning, so hurry and save me before I get myself killed!

You went to the highway with brakes that didn't work? You do know that guardian angel thing is just a religious myth and god doesn't really exist to protect you, right?

Why would you need brakes on a highway? The highway is empty at this hour and I've got engine brakes (as if would need it anyway). The brakes worked, just very poorly. I just had to drive cautiously (like you would if you were driving a very large vehicle). Also, I was preoccupied with "I'm getting the hell home."

I'm off to bed now.

To quickly slow down in case of emergency? To slow down and stop for the toll (if you have to pay)? To slow down and stop at red lights when you get off? There could be many reasons...

Well, miran, not every body stops at red lights like you. Pansy.

What about handbrake? It is possible to brake with it without locking the wheels.

the parking brake is mechanical but usually poorly maintained(and thus unreliable) unless you use it alot, IIRC(no idea if one tends to use a hand brake more than the floor ones though).

Of cource it isn't the best way of braking but it should be better than just using the engine.

[edit]
hm, the word "betetr" sounds cool. Perhaps I should patent it or something.

Darwin in action...

Honestly, if the brakes don't work properly, stear your car to the side, release the gas and pull on the hand break or let friction slow it down. Then call the emergency repair service (you do have one over there, right?)

I guess you have air and water in the pipes. Pumping might dissolve the air in the water (not likely in the brake fluid) which will increase the effect of the brakes. Not using the brakes will get the air out of the liquid again. Just a wild theory. Anyway, check the master and slave cylinders and pistons and gaskets and change fluid.

Only really stupid parking brakes cannot be used as emergency brakes. And only stupid drivers don't use the parking brakes every time they park. It's important to let the wires and joints and everything have regular movement. You don't stop your car on a highway with the hand brake, but you prevent annoying small crashes in the street with it. Like rolling your car into a baby carriage.

Did the pedal feel firm after pumping and then after a while slump again? If so, then you've got a hydraulic leak.

If you can't find the leak in the brake lines, check out the master cylinder/vacuum assister. Also if the brake pedal movement is sent to the vacuum assister via a cable or a secondary hydraulic link, like in so many other Mitsubishis (which your Talon is anyway), check that out too.

Serves you right for trying to do clever tricks.

There there... A reverse 180 is the only way an overweight underpowered front wheel drive car does G-forces. And a quick way to kill CV-joints. However, that doesn't make it a clever trick, it's simply stupid and pointless.

An reverse knight rider turn OTOH is sometimes useful. Remember kids, don't try this at home, at crowded locales, on asphalt or any other well gripping surface (snow or ice, perferred), without power steering or with a rear-wheel drive. It begins as a reverse 180, but at mid-turn the front wheels are locked and while they're locked with the brakes and straightened (when they're locked they don't affect the car's yawing) while simultaneously engaging the first gear and straightening the tires, and when done 180 degrees, accelerating off.

My dad loved to have fun with his Crewcab, Duely 2 ton (I think its a 2 ton, maybe more?), beast of a truck, in winter on slick ice. He'd take to sliding around turns and sliding sideways for fun. And this was with it fully loaded (heavy tools, PVC fittings (the large kind for public swimming pools) and pipe), it must have weighed 4 tons, at least. And he did it just to freak me out. Feeling that much weight sliding around with you inside it can be a bit jarring, or a bit fun, depending on the mood.. and if I remember that the man is nearly blind, and can't read any of the signs untill hes right up to em.

Yep. Powersliding a 2500kg Mitsubishi Pajero/Montero in the winter was fun. Some grandmas on the sidewalk waved their fists in the air when i did that.

Thoug it was more fun and safero to switch on the 4wd and burn rice rockets at traffic lights.

Doing the same with 800kg(?) volvo 340 isn't that bad either
That car is so light that even 20km/h was enough to make the rear end move sideways.

Can I call you Chris 'Deathwish' Katko?

Sure. I like it. My other nickname is Crazy Chris.

The road is empty. I also make use of this thing called "steering." It's saved my life quite a few times where brakes wouldn't have stopped me in time.

There are no tolls in the ten miles it took to go home.

First, it goes uphill. Second, I had brakes. I just didn't have good brakes. They worked, I just had to pump them. Also, I did have emergancy brakes and engine brakes.

Which don't matter when you're familiar with what your doing.

Yeah. But it doesn't work well at all. The tension is way too low, so if you pull it as hard as you can it'll only gently slow you down. I drove home one day with one wheel's handbrake still engaged (the cable seized) and I didn't even notice till I was getting on the off-ramp (I slowed down slightly more than usual). Of course, I baked the poor rim and I need to change my pads and rotor now. This could be linked though. I might have damaged the rear brake system.

Oh, I use mine a lot! Just not for parking... Especially because it siezes in the winter.

Say whatever you want. But you guys are crazy. You're so afraid of the world! I wasn't "in danger" at any point! If I can drive my car with bald tires in the rain, if I can drive my car with no ABS in the rain (never had it to begin with), if I can drive my car with no powersteering or powered braking, if I can drive my car with two-cylinders, I think I can manage occasionally pumping my brakes. Now, I know you'll say doing each one of those things is stupid. Have at it. However, when you're stuck in the middle of nowhere in the freezing cold, you don't have a choice. It's either walk and pray, or drive and pray. I'm gonna drive, thank you very much.

Yeah, it did. My Dad also mentioned to check for a vacuum leak. All of my fluid levels are fine (minus my powersteering fluid leak). The strange thing is that it went away as I drove home (like when an overheated clutch cools off).

Hey now! 140 BHP in a car that weighs only 2500 lbs is not underpowered.

What do you think I was doing. I figured that if I locked the front tires (no ABS, ha!) I could stall the transmission's intermediate shaft, thereby allowing me to go from reverse to 1st gear without grinding (as my sycros aren't that good). I was practicing it, but second run the brakes went out.

Yes it is. And especially when it is in fact a 135hp car that weighs a gargantuan 1300kg (2800lbs). That's very little badly behaving horses pulling a big wagon.

Perhaps you weren't but the sorry dude who might have jumped on the road right in front of your car would have been

I agree that havign bad brakes usually is not that bad problem. It just takes a whole lot more time to stop the car. If there had been a situation where you couldn't react fast enough you would have been screwed.

Source

My car is classified as a subcompact. Now, I'm not saying it's got anything in the upper MPH ranges. I drop into third at 75 MPH and I'm still not accelerating that fast. But at lower speeds, the thing flys. It's got more than 400 ft-lbs of torque in first gear. So it's not amazing, but it's still respectible for the size.

How do you jump in front of someone... on the highway? There's on-ramps, and off-ramps, and two empty lanes.

Yeah. But I've been in that situation already and survived. I was driving my mother's van, doing the speed limit of 70 MPH. There was an accident on the other road, but this one was completely unaffected. Well, apparently some lovely seniors decided to do 30 MPH so they could watch. So in an instant from clearing a hill, my car was at theirs. I slammed on the brakes. I couldn't go in the passing lane because someone was passing me! So, I swerved into the emergancy shoulder lane between their car and the metal railing. With the ABS brakes in the floor, I almost passed their car. I actually passed the passenger in their car with my brakes maxed out. I saved myself, their stupid ass lives, both our cars, and my sister; because I knew how to drive. Unlike their stupid asses...

It's really funny how many times I've almost died because of stupid people... in the less than a year I've been driving. Actually, it's not funny, it's horrifying, but I try to keep a positive outlook on life.

If you had had a similar situation last night you probably wouldn't have been that lucky

DeathWish knows no fear!

... only everyone else around him should

For base model. Yours is not, remember. It's got the Mitsubishi 4G63 that is a lot bigger heap of metal than the 4G37 in the base model. It's around 1230kg. 1300kg was overestimated but i was only bit off, so sue me.

Still heavy though, for that little power.

The closest I came to death on the highway was when...

I was minding my own business on the two-lane highway (ie, one lane in each direction) going 65MPH (105 km/h) when I got this sneaking suspicion that the oncoming car was going to swerve into my lane. (My Jedi instincts, I tell you.) Sure enough, about a second later, he swerved directly toward me about a car's length away. (I'm sure it was farther away than that, but when you are traveling toward each other it seems like a much shorter distance...)

Of course, I couldn't stay in my lane. Nor could I swerve to the shoulder on my right, because that is where he was quickly heading. So I had to swerve into his lane, under the assumption that the semi truck behind him would take his shoulder. And fortunately (I suppose) he did, and for a brief time, we converted the two lane highway into a three lane one with alternating traffic.

Sounds like a normal day in Istanbul.

Yeah, but they probably are all driving armored vehicles with the windshields removed.

I got hit by a car once. I think I proclaimed it here at the time too.

I don't think you realize the mechanics involved in the story I just told. Brakes didn't save me. Steering and my reaction time did.

True, true.

But breaks did help you steer a bit better, at least they slowed you down a bit to make that turn. If you hadn't have that extra time braking gave you and/or if they had been a bit closer, had it end in a different way?

My point is that accidents happen, there is no way around them. Driving around with a broken car just increases your chances of causing or being involved in one.

Btw, I also have been in an accident actually I caused it. I was riding my bike @35km/h and tried to dodge around a parked minivan. As soon as I got around it another car came straight at me from the opposite direction. Luckily it had just made a turn and drove really slow, around 10-15km/h at most. It took about 0.1s from me noticing the car and landing head first into the windshield. Thanks to the helmet all I got was a little shock and couple of bruises. My bike was toasted and so was the windshield. Now I'm much more careful when biking. I only drive fast when I can see where I'm going and always wear a helmet.

This is what I think happened (and some one may have already said this, I didn't read all the post):

You probably have really low brake fluid level in your master cylinder/resevoir so when you were screwing around in the parking lot you got a bunch of air in the lines from the brake fluid sloshing around. And when you pumped the brakes you bled the air out of the lines.

When I was poor I used to drive a little toyota truck with leaky brake cylinders in the rear, and whenever the brakes got mushy I knew it was time to add some brake fluid, and if I forgot I'd use the hand brake. And then when I did add fluid I'd have to pump them for a while.

I really hope you never come to my country and hire a rental. We've got too many idiot drivers as it is.

That sounds likely to me. The air compresses whereas the brake fluid doesn't (to any significant degree). Adding more fluid can displace the air if it's right there in the master cylinder. Another thing is if you have water in the brake fluid in the wheel cylinders/calipers and do hard braking, the water will boil into steam which will compress just like air, when it cools back to water it'll work normally again. Water will rust stuff though, and it's a good idea to totally flush the old brake fluid out every year or two for just that reason. Especially if you have ABS (1500 US dollars maybe to replace the ABS things). If you have cheapo brake shoes/pads and you really get them hot, the resin that holds the brake lining together can melt and lubricate the brakes so they don't work well (brake fade) but usually with that you won't have the pedal drop to the floor. If you have a fluid leak, you might find it by driving onto a clean section of a parking lot and pump the brakes hard with the engine running and look for dripping. If it's in the wheel cylinders it might not drip where you can see it right off, but then the inner facing sidewalls of the tires should look greasy. If it's the master cylinder, there may be a wet stain running down from the master cylinder down onto the booster resevoir (the big pill shaped thing) and will usually peel the paint from it too. There are certain leaks in a master cylinder where it just leaks back to the resevoir internally, (you can't see any leaking fluid outside) so if you can't see any leaks and have bled the brake lines until you get nice clear fluid, I'd try a new master cylinder.

you have a automatic gearbox right ?

tip : with a manual gearbox, you can brake using clever clutch moves and down shifting.

Perhaps you won't be saying that after you've rammed a car from behind, killing all the passengers.

DeathWish has no fear!

Actually, thinking about it, you can't possibly die from being rammed in America, given they all drive 25ft, 16ton, 7litre engined monsters

Bald front tires. Ala steering and acceleration. And I think you forgot that I don't have ABS, so I'm pretty much fucked in rain anyway. Again, steering is what'll save me, not slamming on the brakes like someone who doesn't know how to drive (which only removes your ability to steer).

No. And I'll never buy one. An automatic is like riding, a manual is driving.

Rawr! ::hits fist against chest::

I think the finnish expression 'amis' suits you perfectly.

What? You have only slicks in the states? You're not fucked in rain if you know how to drive and have good tires. They should teach you these things in driving school. Or don't they teach you guys how to brake by pumping the pedal (essential skill in the winter around here)? If your tires climb onto the water then obviosly you have too worn tires and/or are going too fast.

My mama can drive in the rain and she don't think much of it.

What difference does it make? Unless you know the tricks of the trade you're going to be slower with a manual anyway. In fact, you're always going to be slower with a manual. Now semiautomatic aka. sequential, that's a whole another case...

My mama can drive manual. She has, however, not a clue on how to operate an automatic gearbox. It's all about what you're used to.

For one thing, you can't brake with engine when you have automatic gearbox.
Also some people like to be in control, or at least think they are

Actually it does engine brake just fine. Just not as efficiently and to as low rpm's as possible on manual. The torque converter works both ways.

DeathWish has no flashing warning 'katko alert' light!

... unless you're missing a check ball!

anyway... rig up a switch for torque converter lockup override?

[edit]
We used to have a switch in our van for torque converter lockup because it wouldnt do it automatically for some reason... but then my dad fixed that..

Er, what's there to know? You set it to drive and forget about it!

Marcello

The first time I drove an automatic gearbox, I put it into 'D' and then forgot about it. Worked fine until I slammed the brake with both feet.

First, my car is notorious for piss poor rain handling. Second, there's no way you can pump the brakes fast enough in rain if you have to go from 70 MPH to zero in three seconds. Thirdly... I already mentioned that you remove your ability to steer when you do that.

No shit, Sherlock.

How is drivetrain loss and hesitation caused by a torque converter going to make you faster? I'm well aware of semiautomatics, but I don't see how that has any relevance whatsoever.

p.s. I love that only three or so posts have actually dealt the thread's question.

For DeathWish, every street is "one way". HIS WAY.

You didn't ask any questions. You just rambled on about another day of your life.

DeathWish hates gripping the road!

While true, I didn't have any question marks, I was still asking what could cause my brakes to do that.

Rawr! I prefer to slide on the blood of my enemies! ::bangs fists against chest like a QBASIC gorrilla::

Pumping the brakes is just a kludge to allow the wheels to turn at least some of the time. The earliest ABS did this also, the later ones try to maintain maximum braking without locking up. That's what I try to do in a panic stop in bad weather, when you feel it locking up, ease off a bit.

"Emergency" brakes: Even if the handbrake applies enough to lock up the (usually) rear wheels, it won't slow down very fast, as the weight pitches to the front of the car and the rear wheels just howl under light loading. Still, it's way better than nothing.

Yeah, exactly what he said.

That's a load of bullshit. There's no difference in handling rain or shine if you don't got idiotically fast and have good tires. Obviously if the road is worn so it has grooves, then there could be trouble for any car with any tires. That obviously needs some careful steering to avoid tires hitting the grooves, which requires you to see out of your car, which i don't think you do very well, after having sat in a 92 eclipse (which is the same car yours is anyway) and knowing you're 10cm shorter than me. Coupé's are not for short guys, you know.

DeathWish doesn't drive a car. He flies the car!

DeathWish has the reflexes of a cat!

It's in the name.