In discussion with a couple people, we came upon this issue (some people on AIM, a discussion on #allegro, etc). Allegro.cc seems to have changed.

Even i see a change from when i first signed up here. When i asked dumb, rtfm-y questions (note: X-G, this isn't a bash on you...) i generally got an explination, not "RTFM." We have grown not-newb friendy kindof. Sometimes an RTFM is warranted, other times it simply isn't.

Another thing.. everybody is soooo secretive. "MY SEEKRET PROJACT!" No details, no screenshots, nothing. It is like nobody is doing a God darn thing around here. Not as many people are using Allegro anymore either, it seems.

One more thing, everyone has turned into "NO SCREENSHOT NO DOWNLOAD." Why? Why not just try the game/demo/whatever it is? I download almost everything posted when people ask for reviews on it. It seems unjustified, somebody (esp. newbies) working real hard on something to present it to us, and some say no screenshot, no download. That would just destroy their motivation and slowly drag them down into not wanting to post or announce stuff here anymore.

It just has a different feel and attitued in the forums and such than i remember it being. That being said, i'm not trying to reform or anything, I just had this thought come back to me after reading a couple of threads. Make of it as you will.

I can explane this one easily. You get TIRED of answering the SAME question over and over. Especially when there are plenty of automated ways to do so.

If you need a more specific answer then a tutorial/article/previous post, GO FOR IT. But for example, people need to stop asking how to make a game run at the same speed! It's been documented!

yeah i miss good old mondays (or whatever day) when we get "Let's make a supper dupper programming team"

Basically true.

I'm kind of opposed to the "no screenshot, no download" bit too. Type a descriptive post and I'll check it out.

You got it

Yves -> im not talking about that.

Chris: Maybe i will write a new tutorial, like an update vivace, that will explain it all to newbies. once and for all. Even saying RTFT(read the fudgey tutorial) is better than rtfm

[edit]
23 + Oscar posted while i replied. Either im typing slow today or everyone hit post reply at the same time

On the point of asking questions... this is one of the (potentially) strongest communities on the net, and one that I'd like to think all Allegrites should be proud of. And yes, there are certain questions that are asked with alarming frequency, but we should at least point people to the relevant documents/threads that may be helpful. If you don't have anything relevant to post (i.e. a response that actually helps) then perhaps it would be better to stay your hand and move on to another thread.

As for secrecy, I suppose people have been bitten by the shareware bug, and don't want to tip their hands. That's fine; just make sure it gets posted here when you're done with it

Yesterday is always better than today.

I'm rather opposed to this as well, and I don't think it would hold 100% true for most people.

OTOH, I don't like posts like the following:

I'm not going to waste the time to copy and paste the url into the address bar if they're not even going to have the time to post an even vaguely descriptive paragraph or two.

When I post something to be tested by other people, it usually goes something like this:

Eh, I don't think it would. Taking a screenshot and posting it when prompted takes a maximum of what, ten minutes? It's not unreasonable to ask. The "no screenshot, no download" maxim is nice, IMO. Rolls off the tongue.

It's all really about delivering a strong enough first impression that people feel compelled to download the game in question, and not wanting to show screenshots comes off as amateurish and annoying. Like you're ashamed of your graphics or something, or alternatively that you're too lazy to take a screenshot. Neither gives off a very good impression of the game.

Anyway, I do what Derezo does. Or I would, if I ever finished anything.

As for telling people to RTFM... yes, we do it more. Because we've heard those questions a hundred times before and there's just no merit in answering them over and over again where a pointer to the manual is easier and just as good.

EDIT: Heh, added some stuff.

You also should take into account the lightning-quick accuracy and knowledge of the community. I post a question and BAM!! it's answered. If not then I'm definately pointed in the right direction.

I was once subscribed to a mailing list about C programming . It was a wonderful and active community for about a year, but then the newbs came in with their homework questions and demanding attitudes. Unfortunately, they were too many and too noisy, and all the good elements went away, tired of threads like 'Do this for me. I want it by Friday' and 'Stop telling us newbs not to write HEEEELP! in the subject'.

I learned there that a RTFM is still an acceptable answer. The experts could just choose not to answer a question, leaving the newb in the darkest ignorance. An RTFM means that someone actually read the question and cared enough to give a useful answer.

The lesson I learned there is: 'Nobody here is obligated to help you, so why do you say they're rude when they take their time to answer your questions?'.

I am sure the following conversation happened between our own spellcaster and your truly will put a few views and ideas expressed in this thread so far into some perspective ( I hope ).

For the sake completeness this happened between 16th Jan and 17th Jan 2003. So you see BAF I was having this feeling a long long time ago.8-) But all is well till now and hopefully it will remain like that in future. AMEN BROTHERS !

BAF : So, don't worry

Sirocco and Mark Oates you both couldnot be more correct !

p.s. Spellcaster I hope you will not mind that I put this conversation in public forum. Sincere apologies if you do so.

If you want to know, this has been keeping me busy. Not that you could enjoy it, unless you learn finnish.

We are busy, but doing other things.

Personally, I seldom answer with a plain RTFM. Usually, I try to give a short explanation and point to the docs. It's true that I don't take the time to duplicate the docs in my own words though.
I think giving a short explanation and pointing people to the docs is a good thing - the docs are there for a reason, after all.

Again me personally, I have to split my time between work, Allegro, my games and other interests. This slows development on my main Allegro-related programming projects.
For the record, these are the two games I have listed on the depot, a Crystal Castles clone in early stages of development, a chess program, a Xianqi (Chinese Chess) program and a computer version of the board game Carcassonne. The latter is coming along nicely, but I am hesitant to spread it beyond direct friends and acquintences (being a copyrighted product and all).
I probably use Allegro as much as I ever have, if not more.

I rarely download anything anyway (no time to play test extensively). I do like to get an impression of what people are working on, so I do like a screenshot. But it isn't strongly correlated to me downloading something or not.

Maybe. I don't know, I've seen people say this several times over the past couple of years. I don't know, I think some of the regulars of a while back are posting less and other people are posting more - which certainly affects the feel of the forums. I also read the forums far less closely than I used to now, maybe it's just that.
I don't feel it's particularly better or worse than it used to be though.

Maybe, true in my case. But don't worry, I'll post all the details when it's online to buy.

Perhaps also we are seeing a summer syndrome for most people here, when there are other things to do besides programming. Historically game sales always peak around christmas, and I think this is true of programming as well when it's dark, cold and miserable outside. Although it does depend where you live of course.

The reason I've been doing the "SIKRIT PROJEKT" limbo is that I've been afraid to burst your minds with the coolness of my game before it's completely done - A danger in giving previews and demos too early is that you risk to erode the interest in your project while it's still in its infancy.

My latest (tentatively called "toblos") will be thoroughly tested by Allegroites before being unleashed upon the world - it's way way way cooler than RotoCube - I'm committed to finishing it this autumn, and trying to sell it on my site (extensive demo will be available, of course)

As with regards to the "NS-ND" doctrine, I support it fully - mostly I'm at work when reading this stuff, so I can't try it out, but if a screenshot captures my attention, I try to remember downloading it after working hours - It's NOT that difficult to add a simple screenshot, surely? - Not more than it is for me to download and test the game, right?

Evert: I'm interested in the Carcassone!

Also it may be the case that if a few of us release shareware games that this will not only raise the profile of Allegro, but attracts new people here. I know I'm going to have a link here ingame and on the website.

In my case though, any secrecy does indeed mean I'm not doing anything interesting. I am doing things, of course. It's just probably not of any interest to anyone on allegro.cc.

Ok, it's at [url http://www.eglebbk.dds.nl/carcassonne/]. Screenshots are linked from the page. Available as a Windows installer and as sourcecode.
Source requires libnet to compile in addition to Allegro.

Note that there is a subtle bug in the last version where two road tiles inorrectly render as crossings when they are not (these are bridge-over-road and double-bend tiles). If you don't care for the river expansion, you may be better off grabbing the 0.8.4 release instead.

I think we're RTFM'ing more because less and less people are R'ingTFM.

As for project secrecy.. personally I tend to keep a low profile concerning all my projects for several reasons. For one, the likelyhood of them seeing the light of day is rather low. A few projects of mine have been released, and I'm sure you've heard of at least one of them, though. Another thing is that I want to be able to surprise people when they see what the project is shaping up to be (which my current one isn't even in a state where I can say "this is my project", because it looks like something it's not supposed to be.. which is point #3). If you watch a project's steady progression from scratch to full-product, you'll have a lot less to be excited over because you'll have seen everything seperately already as it's put in, instead of several chunks at once.

Rest assured though, when there is something to (possibly) be excited about, you'll all know.

"no screenshot, no download" is more of an explanation why nice people won't download a game. It's the OP's choice to follow the advice.

As everybody ages, they also gain more and more activities and responsibilities. Surely they (being newcommers) can't expect everybody to drop what they're doing and help them with oogles and oogles of text..?

RTFM, baffles.

I would say the elders around here shouldn't even post if all they are going to post is "RTFM". It's very understandable that you don't want to repeat yourselfs so don't post at all and let the non-elders, non-newbies answer the question, like you were so long ago. It's a cycle. When you hit elite status you don't have to answer those type of questions. Let the ones below you do the dirty work. The elders should be working on helping game design/theory.

RTFM embodies sound advice: The answer to their question can be received from just reading the manual. Why should non-elders, non-newbies have to answer the question? Let the manual do the dirty work. The "medium" people should be trying to improve and get better.

for example.

"this" is linked.

X-G, member since 2000, wrote RTFM.
Lenman, member since 2004, gave a link.

X-G, you shouldn't waste your own time with that post. Let people under you help this guy.

Rick, the "this" link in question was just a link to the download section for AllegMP3, which the noob obviously already had and was asking about.

Me telling him to RTFM takes five seconds, tops. I can spare that much out of my otherwise busy day. It doesn't matter if he has the manual or not, apparently he didn't read it. If he had he wouldn't be asking.

That's not my point at all. My point is that you, allegro elite, shouldn't waste your time on such a post. You can help out far more in other areas. If the noob obviously had the manual, then why waste time telling him to RTFM? If you elite, not just X-G, get tired of posting the actual solution, don't you get tired of posting RTFM?

Because he hadn't?

Telling someone it's in the manual will have them ask less stupid questions.

And if someone he doesn't know from Adam tells him to RTFM (which isn't very polite in the first place) he's just going to be like, "Wow, this stranger is right. Maybe I should read the manual."

If you are going to post RTFM, maybe give him a link to the spot in the manual to read. RTFM is way to general. Some manuals are rather large. I'm sure most people post these types of questions because they wish not to weed through the manual. That's "kindof" part of a forum. So people who did RTFM can share the knowledge to those who didn't RTFM.

In general RTFM isn't helping anyone. We all know about manuals. We (most) know how to read.

I'll take my response off-line. (way to much public radio)

[EDIT]

It could actualy lead to more.

Rick: It's the whole "give a man to fish" thing (or if you read Pratchett: "give a man a fire" ). When someone asks if there's a function for loading bitmaps, or what clear_bitmap() does, we could just give him the answers - and be prepared to have to answer every single one of his consecutive RTFM questions. Or we could actually point him to the docs and teach him how to find his own answers. I can understand people overlooking things sometimes, or not understanding parts of the docs. That's OK. But they damn well have to show that they have put in a minimum of effort to solve the thing themselves first...

The problem is there isn't just 1 man to teach fishing to. They keep coming, and coming. Non stop. It will never end. So elite people, such as X-G, shouldn't waste their time posting RTFM. In turn other members won't post threads about how allegro people have changed, in turn making a 2 page thread, such as this, void.

While I'm flattered that you seem to think I'm "elite", it takes me no more than five-ten seconds to post "RTFM". I can spare that much time out of my day, even if I have to do it ten times a day. If I never did anything else than say "RTFM" all day there would be a problem, but that's not the situation today.

Also, you seem to be suggesting that if someone less experienced than me posted the word "RTFM", it would be all right.

Maybe ML should just end it all by putting this up on every single page:
http://www.ericscomputershop.com/junk/damnmanual.png

RTDMF? Doesn't have the same ring to it

..well, then ML will just have to send out an RTFM T-Shirt to every new member. Fed-Ex overnight, so that they don't have too much time to post manual related questions before they recieve it.

The first rule about allegro.cc club is don't talk about allegro.cc club.
The second rule about allegro.cc club is READ THE FARKING MANUAL!

Marcello

Soon the transformation will be complete and a.cc will forever be known as yves.cc MUAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA

Resistance is fertile.

Marcello

If you mean programming, actually, I haven't. Your right. I've got a job now, musical projects I have to attend, and I still like to do stuff with friends (which is about once a week). I can't be a typical no life anymore for the sake of A.CC, nor will I. That doesn't mean I don't love programming (or A.CC), but I don't have anything I want to make or the time to do so at the moment.

I say RTFM sometimes, but I typically word it better than, X-G. I say "it's in the (url)manual(/url)" or FAQ and so on. And I link to the relevant part.

Well... as soon as I get my new keyboard I'll try to start programming again... XP's "On-Screen Keyboard" isn't exactly fit for programming

Dare I say it - perhaps us Allegators are wasting our time sharing bullshit in the off-topic ordeals forum. It should be closed.

As far as I see it this site is more than just about Allegro, and it's more than just about programming. It's about a community of people coming together with common interests to chat about a variety of things. Not to say we are all friends, but several members here have met up with other people through this forum.

Of course if some people here started programming again that would make things more interesting.

yeah, everyone is just loosing all their programming-ness. I have too. I have more of a life, a job, and other things going on.

And as far as stupid "How do i load waves?" questions, RTFM is warranted. but it seems like sometimes people just say it out of turn, like if someone asks a slightly more problematic question.

Everyone who has seen my replies knows I am against the RTFM stuff. If you are going to post that, don't post at all. Other than to get the OP confused and credit him with a free credit for not helping

I think the best solution is that, the same way you get I'm dumb instead of I'm dumb!, that everytime someone posts RTFM, it is replaced with I am increasing my post count, I am too good to help you, I know the answer, but won't share it or just I'm dumb as well. Which one you like the most?

heh, that would be quite funny, since Matthew has RTFM in his sig

I think RP hit the head on the nail there. I mean, whenever I ask questions here, no one has any ideas. So I generally don't bother.

Marcello

I love it when X-G tells me to read his sig, although I hate it when 23yearold tells me to google. Do I win a prize?

No, you win a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity: The a.cc veterans open a can of whoopass on ya.

[edit]I'm pretty sure i wrote it right the first time...

I think there should be a minimum characters per post. I think that every RTFM post without any additional info should result in the addition of "I know it, I know it, na-na-na-na-na"

actually a word count minimum would be nice, it would discourage those RTFM, yes, and no only posts, this way people must think a bit more about what they are going to say, it doesn't have to be a large minimum, like 5 or 10 words. ... Then again people will be doing R T F M . to get away with it

On GameDev, we have a smiley tag just for that purpose.

Can't we have their smileys? They are pretty cool!

I've grown to love Allegro.cc's smileys... so much in fact that I use them in my MSN client too.

No they aren't. There's no consistent style. Some are flat colors; some are shaded to look 3D. Some have one kind of eyes, others have another, still others have yet another. I do kind of like razz, l0l, cool, and oh.

Sure! Just use img tags

The only real big things im noticing are that developers like shawn arnt still hanging around.

Another thing im beginning to notice is that Allegro is starting to gain much more respect as a popular development library. Only a few years ago it used to be like : "Whats Allegro?" or picture drooling gamedev newbie "Allegro is for teh l000serz, if you want to get anywhere you n33d teh DirectX!"

I think that http://www.gamedev.net/columns/books/bookdetails.asp?productid=406 and 23yrold3yrold over at gamedev.net contributed a lot to the increased popularity of Allegro.

Not to mention our very own Mr. Steinke spreading the word in Germany

With the new Shareware Developer uprising, we will preach the Allegro code far and wide.

Put that disrespectful toungue back into your mouth at once, Monsieur Phipps!

If I may comment on "RTFM", "No screenshot no download" and so on ...

There is nothing wrong with posting to encourage someone to look at the manual or upload a screen shot. It is the attitude that matters. "RTFM" screams "I can't be bothered with you", and "No screenshot no download" says "Your work is pointless until you prove otherwise".

Still, I guess some of us just think that way, so at least it's honest.

Luckily most of the community is good. Those of you who aren't cynics yet, don't fall into the trap.

BAF: You got it wrong!
http://www.ericscomputershop.com/junk/rtfm.png

Or
http://www.home.no/dimiles/smily/icon_stfu.gif

Now, allow me to rip of Derezo, and present to you:
http://www.memocomputers.com/rtfd.bmp

[edit]

Damn, beaten even at ripping off...

[edit2]

Which leads to...

http://www.memocomputers.com/beaten.bmp

your images lack transparent backgrounds. FOOL.

Marcello

My mockup-fu is stronger than yours. So keep thine pinehole shut, FOOL.

He's awfully happy for being beaten ...

It's a smiley, he's supposed to be happy. It's in his name and stuff.::)

uhm

Look over there! A pink flying elephant!

darts off

?

You should have rotated the hand instead of flipping it!

EDIT: nm, he fixed it.

http://bafzone.bafsoft.com/misc/coolpics.png

Cool pictures

I can see them ... can't believe Zaphos dared change his avatar though.

you wish you were as cool as I.

Marcello

Someone should write a script that generates on the fly that sign-holding smiley with some specified text...

TF: It's a quote from The Onion
23: You don't like it?

I agree, but have no cgi support to do it.

It's not that; it's just that your old one was a classic.

Okay ... but you're quashing innovation, you know

Something like http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=EAT+ME this perhaps?

one thing that has changed allegro quite a bit, X-G.

Thanks to his post cap, the whinning level has decreased tremendously.:D

Yves, http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=Kthx!+Die!&color=255,0,0&pt=12

yeah, i miss the spinning skull too

i'm too lazy to do it myself, but if someone whips up some php or something, ill throw it up on my site for use.

http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=Look+Up+:P&color=0,0,128&pt=10

http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=SWEET+

http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=The+sign+does+not+stretch+and+the+background+is+not+transparent!&color=255,0,127&pt=10

http://www.allegro.cc/go/http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=Funny!&color=0,128,0&pt=10

i see PICTURE again

Only ML's works

[edit]
http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=Does+It+Work&color=0,0,128&pt=10

That... doesn't make any sense!
They're all from the same script, heh...

I think you broke the internet.

Gee, that's http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=swell, Thomas. I just hope no one http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=abuses& your http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=gener-& http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=osity&. (But how about dynamic sign size http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=calcu-&http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=lation&http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=?&)

http://bafzone.bafsoft.com/misc/borkenpicture.png

http://www.allegro.cc/go/http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=:-) <-- Smiley holding smiley! WOOO!

i see picture -- that is so awesome dude! How do you do it?

Yeah, you broke the internet for sure

Do these two images work?

http://ericscomputershop.com/junk/meanimated.gif

http://ericscomputershop.com/junk/meanimated.gif

(btw, don't set that as your wallpaper. It leaves mental scars)

Derezo, you have a long neck:o

Extremely. It's scary sometimes.

Arggh! Make the scary men go away!!

Derezo: Are you, by any chance, part bulldog?

I SEE IT!

http://www.allegro.cc/go/http://ericscomputershop.com/junk/meanimated.gif

http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=Finally found it out!

i see picture again

[url http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=Finally] but if i go th ere ti is fine

http://www.allegro.cc/go/http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=Finally <-- does that work?

All of them works for me

What about a recursive one..
http://mds.mdh.se/~dal02kln/downloads/recursmiley.GIF

Ugh, badly dithered Gif's..

that one works. But only ML's tomasu.org one worked :\

Derezo, you're one ugly...

I made a recursive one with PovRay.
http://w23.calypso.net/ci-119436/smiley.gif

ahhhh, much better

deps: I take of my hat and bow!

http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=S&pt=18http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=o&pt=18http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=m&pt=18http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=e&pt=18http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=t&pt=18http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=h&pt=18http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=i&pt=18http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=n&pt=18http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=g&pt=18
http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=l&pt=18http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=i&pt=18http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=k&pt=18http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=e&pt=18
http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=t&pt=18http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=h&pt=18http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=i&pt=18http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=s&pt=18http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=?&pt=18

http://www.tomasu.org/sign.pl?text=Or+this?&pt=10&color=255,0,255

http://bafzone.bafsoft.com/misc/somethingfishy.png

So what is up with firefox here? In IE i just get a bunch of X'es

Hmm I see a topic for "Allegro.cc seems to have changed" and "OT is #1", related... I don't think so

[edit]
And stop with the damn smilies... or I shalt ban the lot of you!!!
[/edit]

maybe ie doesn't like my pngs? I don't send the content-length myself, the sever should be though...

http://www.tomasu.org/sign2.pl?text=test+123

that work? I changed it to use jpeg instead of png.

Tomasu: it doesnt work in firefox either. That pic i posted was from firefox.

This thread is confusing me. What's with the 'picture' text?

Firefox shows the alt text like that if the pic cant be loaded. All those smileys from tomasu's site dont work, except for ML's. If i paste the a.cc/go link, no workey. If i go directly to his site it works.

Somehow pictures doesn't show up for BAF.
They does for me using Fire(something)fox 0.9
However, i have seen that "picture" text myself on other images from time to time.

So Matthew's made it that it only works for him?

hehe. I am on firefox 0.9.3. Matthews post of the smiley thingy sign holder dude works. Nobody elses does.

I hope to have fixed it. check my last message.

edit:
It's official, Matthew's go script breaks images.

It's not breaking images for me. Small ones it does, though (hangover from no-emoticon week).

Anyway, this thread needs to die.

Agreed.

BTW: Can I see Bumblebee as your avatar Chris? You know it makes sense!

yeah.

What's wrong with your avatar?

There's nothing wrong with it. It's exactly how I want it!

It doesn't work for me. Custom css makes all posts white. Heh. (Way easier to read, I might add, I tried reading the forum with default thing the other day, man that sucked.)

Marcello

It doesn't work for Marcello though! Here; pick one. Cartoon, comic, or toy.

http://members.gamedev.net/23yrold3yrold/images/bumblebee-cartoon.jpghttp://members.gamedev.net/23yrold3yrold/images/bumblebee-comic.jpghttp://members.gamedev.net/23yrold3yrold/images/bumblebee-toy.jpg

Yuck! They are terrible. Are they all by different artists or something?

EDIT: I'm sure Marcello can still see the faint blue/grey image in my avatar.

"I can see dead threads" - AllegroCC-Seems-To-Have-Changed-TheMovie.com

BAF, you raise a serious topic.

There is a lot of attitude from Allegro members, something that was not in the early days.

It is because no one dares to be open, because they will get someone immediately after them trying to disprove them. Allegro.cc has been turned to a smartass competition!

The sad fact is that you can't do much with just Allegro. There are a lot of tools and libraries that are needed for good games. And as I have said many times before, the lack of good tools is due to the lack of a good gui. Like it or not, it is the tools that would make or break Allegro.

I totally agree. My experience is that newbies easily find Allegro on the web (there are a lot of links), but it is generally considered difficult to use and outdated. Hardcore programmers are turned to DirectX and newbies to Dark Basic and such tools that are more high level than Allegro, and more rewarding in the short term.

The local magazine PC master had a review of amateur programming environments (dark basic, blitz basic etc) but no Allegro. I mailed them about Allegro, and they told me that they knew about it, but it is considered difficult and low level, and there are no known tools to accompany it.

For example, with Dark Basic, you get a 3d object editor, and with a few lines of code you can put the 3d objects you have made with the editor inside the 3d game, which is very easy to set up (and includes a screen update API by default).

Allegro is going nowhere without high level support. Having bitmaps blitting, video mode setup and drawing functions no longer cuts it. People expect more stuff right out of the box. But Allegro people deny this...to further support this argument, allegro devs deny to have the screen update API inside the core lib, without any concrete argument about why. It's all about egos. Allegro will not go very far with such attitude.

I can enum the people in here; we are very few. Almost all regular posters have posted in this thread.

The visual experience dominates all other human experiences these days, especially with computers. It's all about the graphics. Sadly, one can't do good graphics without tools.

The discussion has degenerated to talk about avatars and other silly stuff. I know I will get flamed about this, but I really don't care, as long as the truth comes out.

You bring up some disturbing (but important) points there Axilmar.

I'd hate to see Allegro die, but I'm not convinced it's going to develop into something more modern.

Axilmar, while this is going more off-topic, I don't exactly see much of this thread as a bastian of intelligent debate, so here.

Dark Basic does what it does because that is what it is meant to do. You don't program it in C; you write in a language they invented.

Allegro can never be that. Unless you have the AllegroEngine, you're not going to have the basic ease-of-use that Dark Basic and such programs enjoy. And, even with an AllegroEngine, it's still C or C++, so that limits the people who are going to effectively be able to use it. Joe-newbie off the street who just got his first computer 3 weeks ago isn't going to be using C/C++ anytime soon. Even if the AllegroEngine were designed to provide rediculous ease-of-use, just getting even VC++ up, running, and compiling user-code with the AllegroEngine itself is a challenge that no newbie is going to master.

Tools (map editors, sprite animation editors, GUI layout editors, etc) are reliant on a code-side system to exist. A map editor tool is useless without something that can read the map format and use it in-game. However, a map editor is more than just about drawing a background/foreground for sprites. It needs to define the locations upon which the character can walk (if the character walks at all). This is very different for a top-down game than a side-scroller. The nature of the sprite animation system is very different for different kinds of games. A 2D fighter needs to be able to do some things that a normal Mario-esque side scroller just doesn't need to.

The ultimate destination of what you are suggesting is the AllegroEngine. That is, a full-fledged game engine built using Allegro at its core. Unfortunately, this doesn't work nearly as well for a 2D game than for 3D games. You can turn a 3rd person 3D game into a first-person game with a quick camera change; not so with 2D. In 2D, the difference between a top-down Zelda and a side-scrolling Metroid are truly worlds apart, even though they're based on similar tech. While, yes, you could build an engine that could handle both (with one switch at the beginning telling the system what archetype of 2D game to use), doing so would be the equivalent of building a 2D platformer, 2D side-scrolling shooter, and a top-down scrolling game all in one engine.

There may be some kind of middle ground, where you could supply some higher-level systems, like a tilemap system, a sprite animation system, a GUI, and maybe a few others. However, beyond that, you're walking directly into engine territory.

The most you might be able to accomplish (and now, I mean the "royal" you. Re: the Allegro community) would be to build a number of separate engines or pseudo engines for various kinds of 2D games.

Allegro, as it approximately stands now, does have a place. There are people who have graduated from Dark Basic-esuqe things and want to try something more powerful, or people who might use DirectX, but would be willing to use something easier and more cross-platform. The current issue is that Allegro 4 isn't the best software in this "market".

About the pictures not showing up, I remember having a similar problem a while ago. The proglem was I was going to allegro.cc instead of www.allegro.cc and the go script didn't like the cookie from allegro.cc (it only wants them from www.allegro.cc).

Korval: are you going to make AllegroEngine?

KC: It is only tomasu's ones that aren't posted by ML. And i am on www. (remember, it doesnt work without the www anymore )