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Feminism / Misandry / History / Sexual Harassment
bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Stumbled across this interesting video that allegedly shows an uncut version of a Jordan Peterson interview where he touches on some ideas I've tried covering here in the past.

video

I find it so baffling that people are so ideological with regards to feminism. You can't even have a conversation with them. A goddamn respected doctor of psychology and university professor is questioned by the media when he makes a very careful statement about sex!

And it's not just the media. You do it too. Why? Why are you unable to recognize that women wearing make-up, skirts, and high-heels at work is sexual in nature. That they then receive sexual advances in return is not then surprising, is it? Who is being harassed? A well-intentioned man responding to an outward display of sexuality in the workplace and being vilified for it? Or the woman provoking a sexual response in the workplace and crying victim when she gets it?

Another interesting Jordan Peterson clip that was new to me, but again covers and refutes the twisted narrative of history that feminists and SJWs preach:

video

These topics are very important to discuss. Don't avoid them just because they're controversial. Those are the ideas that most need to be discussed.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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If a man or woman dresses inappropriately at work then they deserve to be reprimanded. End of story. Not going to go into the details of what that is or isn't with bambam. And I'm not going to watch the videos because bambam is crazy.

And here's this simple rule: don't hit on people at work regardless of what they are or aren't doing. Despite what your little brain is telling you.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Jordan Peterson is a professor of psychology at the University of Toronto (as well as a practising clinician). You're not watching me. You're watching a very intelligent, well-researched, well-read academic.

Men hit on women. Women attract men. Therefore, the equivalent of men asking women out at work is women being sexually attractive at work (by design), as opposed to trying to look like every other person in the office regardless of gender.

The point that Jordan made is that we don't yet know the rules. We're brand new to having women working alongside men, and so far it hasn't been going very well. That's all that we really know for sure.

We don't know what is fair. That we aren't even allowed to discuss it is alarming. It should be scientists and psychologists telling us what behaviour is harassment and what is not. It should outrage everyone that science is being hindered by universities according to several reputable professors.

And if you want the future to have any hope of being a good one you should be fighting for knowledge and truth to win the day. Scientists are fucking around with viruses in a laboratory all over this planet. Do you want them to be guided by facts and truths or do you want them to be guided by feelings? :P

Append:

P.S., I am crazy. >:( All weekend I have been crippled again with clinical depression and recurring suicidal ideation. Unfortunately for you it's not the kind of crazy that makes me an unreliable source of ideas.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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bamccaig said:

clinical depression

Do you go to a therapist? Is it in regard to some situation of your life, or lack of progress toward goals/expectations for your life?

And here's this simple rule: don't hit on people at work regardless of what they are or aren't doing.

The super-strange fact of life is, people are attracted to people near them. :o

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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people are attracted to people near them

Until they are in a relationship and then they are repelled by those same people. >:(

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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And here's this simple rule: don't hit on people at work regardless of what they are or aren't doing.

That's extremely limiting. How many people meet their significant others at work? I did. With a strict rule like that we never could have met. It's far more complicated than that. Of course, some people can get around it by never interacting with women at work. Many people don't have that option though.

That's not at all fair to men though (and it's not good for women either). In trying to protect women, as usual, we've blown way past what is fair and reasonable and gone straight to blaming men for everything before even attempting to understand what happened.

The only way to truly protect women is to understand and fix the root of the problem. All of the emotional responses we have are misguided and do more harm than good to women as well as men.

Anybody that thinks this is simple doesn't understand the problem. :)

Wrapped in a spoiler tag because it's diverging from the OP. :)

Do you go to a therapist? Is it in regard to some situation of your life, or lack of progress toward goals/expectations for your life?

No, I do not. It is not easy to access mental health services... I pretty much need referrals from my general practitioner, and I guess I haven't really hit a bar that he thinks qualifies... Ultimately that's what I want, but first I have to convince an overwhelmed health care system that it should take its time with me.

And mental health is not exactly a science yet so there isn't going to be a consistent set of services available globally... We can't even bring enough medical doctors this far North to service everybody so I imagine the shortage of psychiatrists and psychologists is that much worse. I'm not even convinced that full mental health assessment and treatment is even available where I am. I somewhat doubt we have amazing psychologists in my small city. :P

I am also acquaintances with a couple of people that work in the mental health ward of the hospital. They don't have anything good to say about it. The system is completely broken.

My GP keeps wanting to connect me with a "counsellor" at additions services. Which I was perfectly happy to do originally, but they have proven ineffective at communicating with me. And this is my problem with generic "counsellors". They don't possibly have the education and experience necessary to even communicate with somebody like me effectively.

The call literally stalled with "How do you want me to help you?" That's difficult to answer considering you aren't who I wanted help from. I did my best to explain my situation hoping she'd have the professional knowledge to understand how to help me or redirect me to somebody that could, but she just repeated the question. Then suggested I think about it for our next call. The next call went exactly like that. After about 3 or 4 calls chatting about how to even help me, with no help from her, we agreed to close my file. The doctor wants me to return to them again, apparently forgetting that we tried it before and they failed to help me. So I'm stuck in these useless loops.

Also, I don't think that mental health services are generally covered by public healthcare. So I'd have to pay out of pocket for it, and I can't afford it. Where I come from we can't just continue to borrow money we'll never be able to afford to pay back. We actually need a plan to pay it back right away. ???

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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bamccaig said:

It's far more complicated than that.

Yes, it is.

A lot of couples meet in the workplace and do so successfully. On the other hand though, a lot of sexual harassment suits arise because one person completely misread the other person, so unless you're really good at reading signals from other people, it's safer to avoid workplace relationships.

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Of course, some people can get around it by never interacting with women at work.

That's like avoiding sunburn by never leaving the house. Yes, it will work, but it's an extreme method, and there are plenty of better ways.

Quote:

The only way to truly protect women is to understand and fix the root of the problem

It's not about protecting women. They're quite capable of protecting themself. It's about treating people (all people) with respect in an appropriate way.

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Also, I don't think that mental health services are generally covered by public healthcare. So I'd have to pay out of pocket for it, and I can't afford it

Look to see if there are specific clinics that deal with specific areas - anxiety, depression, etc.

It never initially occurred to see my GP about mental health issues, so I paid to privately see a psychiatrist. One of the things he initially diagnosed me with was anxiety disorder, and he also worked at the Anxiety Disorder's Unit of the local health board, and so referred me there and continued to treat me there for free, not just for the anxiety, but also for depression, OCD and Autism.

He worked with me two or three times a month for about 18 months and I definitely wouldn't have been able to continue to see him privately for that long as it was too expensive, and if I had gone to my GP first, waiting for a referral to see a DHB psychiatrist would probably have taken too long (my mental health declined very rapidly, and that was with treatment).

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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bamccaig said:

That's extremely limiting. How many people meet their significant others at work? I did. With a strict rule like that we never could have met.

You don't have to hit on people during work hours at the work office to know if they like you. Organize a team after-hours social event and gradually see what's there. Yes, I can hear you preemptively complaining that you can still be accused in that setting. Sure, anything is possible, but at least you have acted appropriately. That's all you can control.

And of course, don't chase after someone who isn't your peer. It's never appropriate to begin a relationship with somebody who reports to you (or you report to). Doesn't matter if it's consensual.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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LennyLen said:

A lot of couples meet in the workplace and do so successfully. On the other hand though, a lot of sexual harassment suits arise because one person completely misread the other person, so unless you're really good at reading signals from other people, it's safer to avoid workplace relationships.

I had no idea how bad I was at reading signals from others until I realized I was autistic. :) Which was like this year. 33 years of well-intended ignorance before that.

LennyLen said:

It's not about protecting women. They're quite capable of protecting themself. It's about treating people (all people) with respect in an appropriate way.

The funny thing is that in the 70's women fought for the freedom to come and go as they pleased instead of having curfews to keep them safe at night on campus. Women literally fought for the right to risk being raped on campus by having the freedom to be responsible for their own safety.

Fast-forward 50 years and rape is allegedly out of control on college campuses, women are calling for "safe spaces" where they can be sheltered from reality, and seemingly nothing they try does any good! The evidence would seem to indicate that women cannot take care of themselves. At least, in general. ::) Which is not to say that there aren't plenty of women that can and do take care of themselves, but I certainly don't think it's something that can be relied upon.

If you give most women some sensible advice to address the alleged problem of rape on campus, like don't go out alone, don't go home with strangers, don't invite boys into your room if you don't intend to have sex with them, etc., they'll tell you that it's not their responsibility to keep themselves safe. In their mind they just shouldn't be raped and so there's no reason to take any precautions because precautions shouldn't be necessary.

So what is their brilliant solution to end rape on campus? Well of course we need to tell boys not to rape. Why didn't I think of that? When you tell them that you can't stop every man from raping they lose their shit. They cannot comprehend it. They refuse to take any responsibility for their own safety, and they're outraged at the suggestion that they should participate in their own safety.

And the feminists from the 70's that fought for the freedom to risk rape are dumbfounded at why women today are all acting like children.

But no, no, I'm sure it's fine. Nevermind that college professors are pointing out that things are wrong. Let's just keep going this way. I'm sure it'll be fine, just like the climate.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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If the precaution is don't be a woman, never leave the house, or wrap yourself in an unflattering Trump flag if you do go out, then the precaution is bogus.

And yes, there are smart things to do. If there are precautions you can take to avoid being assaulted without it lowering your quality of life, then do them. However ultimately, nobody deserves to be assaulted or should bear any blame if they do, regardless of what precautions were or weren't taken. It unequivocally is always 100% the assaulting person's fault. *

The reason why women often get mad when precautions are talked about is because it's coming from men who are actually trying to shift the blame. There are good and healthy ways to discuss self-defense, situational awareness, etc. that don't put blame on the victims.

(* I'm not talking about situations where the accuser purposefully and intentionally is trying to get the accused in trouble. I feel confident that is not the norm, but is still reason why all accusations need to be proven in court.)

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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If the precaution is don't be a woman, never leave the house, or wrap yourself in an unflattering Trump flag if you do go out, then the precaution is bogus.

The precaution is use fucking common sense. Men are assaulted far more often than women are. They just complain about it a lot less often. Do you know what men do to protect themselves if there are risks around? Of course you do. I'm sure you do them too, unless you've never felt danger ever in your life. We anticipate the unexpected. We avoid the unknown. We plan our actions and try to be aware of what's going on around us. If men have to do all of that why shouldn't women?

The idea that you shouldn't need to take any precautions because in a perfect world you wouldn't need to is ridiculous. This isn't a perfect world. I am just one of billions that requires mental health assessment and treatment and I cannot even access it even when asking the system for it. There are countless wild animals out there of both sexes walking on two legs that thrive on harming other people. The world is not safe, and we're a very long ways away from making it safe. Expecting women to play a role in their safety is not bogus.

There is no way for us as a society to prevent 100% of rapes. What women argue is needed is teaching boys not to rape. They somehow think we aren't already doing that. Which is extremely frustrating for men. Inevitably constructive people trying to address the problem arrive at the same conclusion: since we don't know who the rapists are, and can't predict who is a threat and who isn't, the only way to prevent rape is for potential victims to avoid being vulnerable enough to be raped. Which means we need to teach women to avoid dangers.

It appears to me that rape basically ruins every person's life. Surely it's worth taking ANY AND ALL precautions to avoid it then, even if it means restricting your own freedom in life to stay safe.

That might not be fair, but life most assuredly is not fair. It beats repeating themselves over and over and expecting a different result. Talk about crazy.

However ultimately, nobody deserves to be assaulted or should bear any blame if they do, regardless of what precautions were or weren't taken. It unequivocally is always 100% the assaulting person's fault. *

Kumbaya. That was beautiful. It's bullshit because men are assaulted on a daily basis and we readily blame them and expect them to take care of themselves. Especially if they're poor.

Hell, if a man being abused by his wife calls the police the police are more likely to arrest HIM than her.

https://malepsychology.org.uk/2019/06/15/its-easier-to-blame-men-than-to-see-men-as-victims/

Men need to be seen as human to solve any of these problems. You can keep with your ignorant shutting down of male voices and propping up of female voices, but the problems will continue to get worse because we're not even asking the right questions, let alone testing the right hypotheses.

The reason why women often get mad when precautions are talked about is because it's coming from men who are actually trying to shift the blame. There are good and healthy ways to discuss self-defense, situational awareness, etc. that don't put blame on the victims.

video

What's actually happening is that we're rapidly changing society with technology without understanding its implications, and things are inevitably going wrong as an unanticipated consequence of the technology. And we're not talking about it. We're not even allowed to talk about it. Instead we're waiting until somebody does something that somebody doesn't like and we're mobbing them. And it's working out very poorly.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Essentially I disagree with your basic premise that women collectively don't think it's smart to take precautions, and so the anger you build up on that false premise isn't really worth arguing about.

Also, different groups of women can even hold contradictory views on a subject without themselves being internally consistent. There is no human hive mind.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Also, different groups of women can even hold contradictory views on a subject without themselves being internally consistent. There is no human hive mind.

You're absolutely correct. Feminism doesn't even speak for the majority of women, even though it talks over all of them.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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Brandon, why don't you just admit you're a chauvinist pig already. Males are not being 'opressed' by women's sexuality in the work place. Just learn some fucking respect and be polite and maybe they'll give you a pass for being such a chicken-wuss.

:-*

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I'm not chauvinistic. I'm happily married to a modern woman who has all of the freedom in the world. You?

Dr. Peterson is also not chauvinistic. Maybe, just maybe, watch the goddamned videos so you know what I'm actually talking about and if you disagree with what the professor said then feel free to explain your argument. If you're not going to discuss the OP then why are you even posting, either of you?

:-*

piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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you humans live backwards it is the females that should be hunting the males. the males should be hunting God. it is what you learn from God that attracts the females because the females can sense God but not locate and understand. this is the males job and the very thing that the female is naturally attracted too

wow
-------------------------------
i am who you are not am i

Erin Maus
Member #7,537
July 2006
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I've gotten cat called outside my apartment while walking my dog in the afternoon (I live in a gentrified area in the center of a city). I've been catcalled on the way to my old job (a couple blocks from my apartment).

???

Guess I'm asking for it.

Spoiler: Since I'm trans, getting catcalled inherently could easily turn violent if for some reason they find out I am AMAB. ::)

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.
they / them / their

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Erin Maus said:

Guess I'm asking for it.

Do you know what I think is really shitty? Women (and I guess some trans people) are under the impression that they can send whatever sex signals they want to whoever they want on the street or in the workplace and be left alone. That's not how that works. If you call everybody up on the telephone somebody is bound to answer. Don't send out the message that you're sexually receptive if you don't want for the people around you to receive it. Seems simple to me.

I don't know where women got it in their head that they have the right to do and say anything and men can't respond to it. It's absolutely ridiculous, and it's sexist to suppress men's lived experiences. If men are catcalling women on the street don't you think perhaps the women are making the men excited? Don't you think that would be extremely uncomfortable for an involuntary celibate to be at work trying to do a job to earn a living and have attractive women out of his league walking by all day flashing their business?

Instead of fighting with men, as usual, why not try actually communicating with them? Find common ground. See if you can't get through to them by listening to some of their gripes about women!

Girls and women do have some control over whether they get catcalled or not. They just don't particularly like exercising it because it limits their freedom to be as distracting as possible for men. :P

Of course, Feminism has really shot itself in the foot. If you tell men that women are just as strong as men, just as capable, etc., which was the Feminist doctrine I was taught when I was in school, then you better expect men to treat women like they can take care of themselves (just like everybody, women included, treats men). There once was a time that everybody understood that women are weak and vulnerable, and we as a society did lots to protect them. They were encouraged to wear subdued clothing most days so as not to attract unwanted attention.

Then women rose up, insisting they were not children and could take care of themselves. And here we are. The point being that it isn't just women's discomfort that matters. Men's feelings should be respected as well. There is currently none of that. Which I think is another reason why men would catcall even knowing that it was upsetting because why not? Men get shit it on all day every day by everybody and nobody cares. I imagine some take the opportunity to throw it back.

At the end of the day we're still apes. Don't forget that.

If scientists were to reason that catcalling is an unprovoked, abusive form of communication then I would 100% stand behind the idea that it's abusive and wrong and should not be tolerated. That isn't what happened though. The science is not being done of these issues. It's not allowed to be. The powers that be don't want certain questions being answered with the truth. And that's very problematic.

We need to be steered by knowledge and wisdom, not feeling and emotion. When men and women interact there are always at least two lived experiences to consider, not just one.

Note: I am autistic. I generally do not catcall outwardly. Though I do regularly think it internally, and have probably on rare occasion even attempted to express it out loud (whether a soft beep on the horn or saying "daaaamn" out loud, which from me is more of a whisper anyway). I don't think women would be overly intimidated by me doing it (I'm only 145 lbs, most women probably weigh more than me). I can understand how women might be intimidated by a big, ugly, 300 lb man doing it though. However, if it's only problematic when big, scary men do it then I think we need to again question whether the problem is the man's behaviour or that women are just weak and vulnerable in society, and they're projecting their fears onto others.

In other words, I have no real strong feelings about catcalling. I probably haven't done anything that qualifies in a decade. That said, if ever I do catcall it is 100% provoked. I'm not going around just harassing random women. She would have had to tease it out of me. And I would maintain that if she's allowed to dress that way and distract me then I should be allowed to call out to her to express how sexy she looks. And if she doesn't want that then she can always not dress sexily on the street or in the office. Seems simple enough.

It turns out you don't have to dress sexily all the time. In fact, it may be best reserved for your bedroom or perhaps a nightclub (if your intention is to attract a sexual partner). :) If you just want to go and dance and have fun I recommend wearing baggy rags. The men will probably leave you completely alone.

Erin Maus
Member #7,537
July 2006
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I was wearing a conservative maxi dress near my apartment and going to work I was wearing jeans, a blazer, and a dress shirt.

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.
they / them / their

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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How dare you wear that. >:(

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Without being able to see what you looked like I think it's unreasonable to expect me to judge it over the Internet. :P I am assuming that you provoked the response, but for all I know the guy just got out of prison. :P

My question for you would be are you offended that they're catcalling at all, or are you just scared they'll discover you're AMAB? If there was zero chance of a hate crime would you still be upset by it?

Part of communicating is making the other person understand you. Far too often women just accuse men of bad things and don't even attempt to communicate. Which CANNOT be taken for granted. I'm autistic. I don't even know how NT men feel, let alone how NT women feel. And it's very difficult for me to judge from appearances how somebody is feeling.

For example, we recently got some really shitty news that my wife's friend's infant daughter was diagnosed with a rare disease and isn't expected to live past 3 or so. I can understand that the news is tragic. However, I am not really capable of "feeling" it. My wife helped to spread the word by calling several people, and each time she would break into tears as they picked up the phone.

To my autistic brain it appeared that she was faking crying for sympathy because she would very quickly transition between seemingly fine, and then all of a sudden cry again when she picked up the phone, and then again after another sentence or so she'd be fine again. It took conscious effort trying to not upset her for me to wrap my head around the fact that she was so sensitive that she kept breaking down at the thought of it. Something that I am not capable of doing, and something that I do not predict in others.

I think that women far too often expect men to be able to relate to their experiences, not understanding that it's completely foreign to them. Perhaps we can't understand because we're different, and instead of talking each other's language we're speaking our own and getting nowhere. :) Which is all the more reason for more science and less feelings. Feelings just get hurt here, but science can progress.

Append:

I also think that Feminism does a great disservice to women by teaching false narratives that men may then try to understand women through, which if the original narrative is incorrect is going to guarantee that any understanding gained through it will also be incorrect. Perhaps women need to lay out all of their assumptions on the table to fully explain how they feel and why to men that cannot understand.

Append:

More on the subject from the professor:

video

Why doesn't somebody actually try engaging in the conversation? :P Watch the video. Acknowledge his expertise. And let me know what you think about it. You don't have to agree with it or like it. Just tell me what you do think. Have an actual conversation instead of just ganging up to try to tell me I'm a bad man. ::)

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

bamccaig said:

That's not how that works. (...) Don't send out the message that you're sexually receptive if you don't want for the people around you to receive it. Seems simple to me.

Yeah, (implicit) human communication, especially about relations and sex, is always unambiguous, crystal-clear and without misunderstanding. ::)

As everyone knows, the one and only way for women to dress is to cover every square inch of skin (and their hair). >:(

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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My wife just called me. Apparently she just got felt up at work. >:( The dude apparently said she had big boobies.

Oh, it was a 4 year old at the childcare centre she works at. Fucking animal. >:(

Append:

Also catcalling specifically was already addressed by the factual feminist (Christina Hoff Sommers):

video

And more from Peterson:

video

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Getting into a debate on whether or not some women like it, what their clothes are or aren't saying is besides the point. The reality is that catcalling someone is always disgusting because you do it with knowledge that there is a good chance that it is unwanted and will cause harm or discomfort. End of story. Doesn't matter what you think or if somehow your view is the correct one.

Rule #1: Respect others.

We wouldn't even be having this discussion if you didn't already know that.

And there's a reason why certain topics don't deserve discussion ... because if you give someone an inch then they'll take a mile. Sure, ultimately, there's a more nuanced discussion here. But the pigs take any type of concession to mean that they are free to act like however they would like and shift the blame to their victims.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

The problem is by ignoring the videos you're completely missing all of the points. You're not even discussing the topic. You're just repeating false Feminist talking points. Which just go right through me because I know it's all bullshit.

Who are these "pigs"? What will they do if you don't discuss the topic at all? Do you think that these "pigs" are going to listen to calls to stop acting the way they do? What punishment do you think is fitting for catcalling? Should it be criminal? Would it be a monetary fine or jail time?

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