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Merikuh's Elephant In The Room
Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Okay. Here we go. Time to talk about Merikuh's little immigration issue.

In a vain attempt to keep this civil, if you cite sources, please state your references, and whether you feel them to be personally biased or not, one way or the other.

My thoughts on the matter;

  • 1. Legal immigration is fine with me.

  • 2. There aren't many options here. The ones I see to deal with illegal immigration are these;

    • A. Deport an entire family together. Simply ship them to the nearest border crossing and release them.

    • B. Detain an entire family together. This is not feasible in reality. Detention centers are no place for children. They're for people who broke the law, and the children are innocent in this matter.

    • C. Place the children with sponsors in the US. This is what is currently being done. Children cannot be legally detained more than 20 days. It's illegal.

  • 3. The source of these problems come from;

    • A. Democratic policy from the Obama era.

    • B. A May ruling by Jeff Sessions to move from civil prosecution to criminal prosecution in matters of border crossing illegally.

    • C. Stone-walling (get it) by the Republicans on 'Building The Border Wall' as a pre-requisite on immigration reform.

  • 4. Horrific bias on the parts of liberal and conservative media, with blood thirsty liberals saying Trump keeps children in cages like animals except those photos were from the Obama era.

What ever happened to honest reporting?

Since when did 'Journalistic Integrity' become a thing of the past?

I don't know about you people, but I'm sick of everyone lately. The Democrats are nuts. The Republicans are totally bought off. The media lies and lies and lies and you can never get a nugget of truth out of anyone anymore.

This is why I mostly cut myself off from the media these days. Just can't believe anything anymore.

If you cite sources, please explain whether you think they are biased or telling the truth or not.

And anymore, the newspaper articles I do read are so vapid and devoid of any meaningful information that I hate to waste my time.

Niunio
Member #1,975
March 2002
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I don't know about you people, but I'm sick of everyone lately. The Democrats are nuts. The Republicans are totally bought off.

Here in Spain we have more options (Extreme left (almost communists, if you believe what they say), Left, center, center right, right, expreme right (your "Democrats"), even more extreme right (your "Republicans"), so much left that they almost touch extreme left...) and I have the same problem.

Welcome to democracy.

-----------------
Current projects: Allegro.pas | MinGRo

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

One of the Republicans' latest offers strongly curbs illegal and chain immigration as well as offering a path to citizenship for all applicable DACA aliens. That's a pretty strong compromise offering both sides something substantial. Even though many strongly-conservative people like me could accept it, the Democrats don't seem to want to accept anything that actually solves the problem of illegal immigration because it's one of their favorite political footballs.

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

It's the same in Europe :( What happened to basic human decency (i.e. help refugees instead of treating them all like criminals just because of the slight chance some of them may be)? What happened to Christianity with their "love thy neighbor"? I feel the world has turned into an evil and godless place.

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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I think most moderates actually think that. (Fun side fact: A huge percentage of Hispanic Americans are... opposed to illegal immigration and amnesty.)

- Legal immigration exists for damn good reasons. It's to prevent criminals (you know, those things they're fleeing from Mexico? They come over too.), prevent DISEASES (remember the Ebola outbreak? YEAH. THAT.), and prevent too many people from coming over that our existing welfare and education systems cannot bare them.

- If you want MORE IMMIGRANTS in your country? That's great! A noble idea. PASS A !@$!'ING LAW THEN. The solution is not to ignore laws that affect global scales, the solution is to pass laws. Because we have this thing called a GOVERNMENT and a SOCIETY.

- Illegal immigration has horrific room for human rights abuses. It's almost like the law can't protect people it doesn't know about! Immigrants are hard workers. But they're USED UP while they're in their prime, laying concrete for example, and then when their backs and knees go out... they're replaced by new 18-year old immigrants. No retirement. No health insurance. Enjoy being !@$!@'d.

<edit>
- More on illegal immigration: Fun fact: Women (and female CHILDREN) who sneak over to the USA from Mexico? Are told to take birth control. ... because they will be raped. And, once they work in the fields? They're still getting raped. All from liberal articles BEFORE this B.S. debate.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/facing-risk-rape-migrant-women-prepare-birth-control

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/rape-in-the-fields/

- So how can the "HUMANE" option be... empowering a system of illegal immigration that encourages the rape of women? How the !@$!@ is that the compassionate response? I, for one, don't support rape. ::)
</edit>

- If I tried to sneak into any country, like Swedan/Finland/etc and got caught... there's zero chance anyone would have a vigil and protest with candles and super-sad-imagery at my suffering and injustice for a better life. Cuz, you know, ... I wite. Even though there are more poor white people in American than any other race. Screw those poor white kids for being oppressors!

I'm seeing a shocking LACK of any kind of factual debate in this national discussion (not here, but online/tv/etc). Both sides literally see the same facts, and then blur or omit them. Everyone is so emotional nobody can think straight.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

Since Democrats refused to play ball on legislation, Trump issued an executive order to allow the children to remain in detention with their parents. To everybody's complete surprise, the Democrats are still complaining. As we already knew, they weren't really concerned about the separation, they were just agitating for their desire of total destruction of our borders.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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raynebc said:

agitating for their desire of total destruction of our borders.

And getting bleeding heart votes for their upcoming election.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/06/17/democrats-gain-entry-to-nj-immigration-detention-center-after-arguing-with-cops-literally-banging-on-door.html

Quote:

Democrats gain entry to NJ immigration detention center after arguing with cops, 'literally banging on the door'

AWWW. What a beautiful, emotional, powerful scene that must have been! Of course, as usual, they didn't actually DO anything. It was (as always) FEELING like they did something. Just like gun control or school shootings. It doesn't matter what the facts are, science and psychology says. What matters is, we FEEL like we made a difference.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

It's pretty simple. If you want to enter the country, do so legally. Period. If you break the law just entering, than how much respect will you have for OUR country once you're in? Our laws are set up for good reason. If you obey them and enter properly and legally, I will welcome you with open arms.

I don't see how this is even remotely an issue.

As for the little girl in the now famous Time magazine issue... I thought the following image summed it up quite nicely...
{"name":"611608","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/e\/e\/ee34b70af2f946014851046e94d31190.jpg","w":909,"h":1199,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/e\/e\/ee34b70af2f946014851046e94d31190"}611608

I seen a news story which basically verifies what this photo states. The woman's own family verified that she was never separated from her child. And even if she was, the laws were in place since Bill Clinton and were simply being enforced. If you break the law, you will be separated from your family. Why is this a surprise to anyone? I really don't feel Trump needed to change the law not separating them as they wouldn't be separated if they obeyed the law in the first place. Even citizens of our countries are separated from our families if we break the law! Yeesh. I swear people get dumber by the year.

--
Deluxe Pacman 1 & 2 (free) with source code available
https://nitehackr.github.io/games_index.html

relpatseht
Member #5,034
September 2004
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I like that level of rationalizations. "This picture is inaccurate; thus, the message is a joke."

Dude, seriously? After all I've seen you on this board, I thought you were a Christian with some sort of values. I'm a rich bastard with a comfortable life. I barely give to those in need and make don't hide behind any straw men of imagined empathy. I don't pretend to care about people less fortunate than me because I am a heartless bastard and I can live with that. Even so, I'm not about to get on a soap box to tell pitiful souls struggling for a better life that they deserve to have what little they have left taken from them for crossing some imaginary line in the sand.

I don't understand it. Where is the animosity coming from? Why is it directed at the wretched?

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

I thought you were a Christian with some sort of values.

I do have values, and one of those values is obeying laws, not breaking them. We don't owe the world a living. People are welcome to come to our country, IF THEY DO IT LEGALLY. What part of "don't break our laws" do you not understand?!

Also, this has been going on long before Trump, so why to the democrats wait until he is president to put up a fuss? They didn't care about these families the 8 years Obama was in office or while Bush was in office or while Clinton was in office!

Their concern is fabricated and is just a lame excuse to attack Trump... again, even when Trump is the first president to pass a law to stop them from being separated, they refuse to give him credit and try and blame him for it, which is utterly ridiculous.

As a Christian, I am in favour of the TRUTH, not LIES, and obeying laws, not letting criminals into our nation that can steal from us and possibly rape our women and commit terrorist acts! Enter in LEGALLY and I have no problem, niether does Trump or his immigrant wife!

Quote:

I don't understand it. Where is the animosity coming from? Why is it directed at the wretched?

Again, it's directed at the law breaking CRIMINALS, not the law abiding immigrants with genuine problems they need help with. Big difference. Our resources should be spent on the ones that really need the help, not the criminals who don't care for us or our laws.

--
Deluxe Pacman 1 & 2 (free) with source code available
https://nitehackr.github.io/games_index.html

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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I suppose the real question no one is getting at here, is, WHY are they crossing the border illegally when they could seek asylum legally at a port of entry?

Got a kick out of seeing this earlier on FB :
{"name":"611610","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/d\/9\/d9668a7b4a91fe3f874cb3a9c3c4ed68.png","w":519,"h":455,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/d\/9\/d9668a7b4a91fe3f874cb3a9c3c4ed68"}611610

America's classrooms are overflowing with children from everywhere, and they can't even afford basic supplies unless the completely underpaid teachers pay for it out of their own pocket. University education costs have skyrocketed over the last decade. The Arts are no longer funded. Poor people not only can't pay for insurance but they are legally bound to do so or face penalties on their taxes! (Thanks for nothing Obama).

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

Neil Roy said:

What part of "don't break our laws" do you not understand?!

Some people think that if they need (or even merely want) something, they should have a right to take it.

Quote:

again, even when Trump is the first president to pass a law to stop them from being separated

Technically it's an executive order and not legislation. It may be overruled by the courts.

There's speculation that Trump's recent musings about immediately deporting freshly-entered illegal immigrants without an immigration court order would violate due process, but the Constitution explicitly allows the president to decide how to handle immigration, so it's not clear that this would be illegal.

I just read that they are temporarily ceasing the arrest of the parents of children of families illegally crossing the border because DHS is overwhelmed. I think immediate deportation would be better than allowing the courts to remain permanently backlogged and overwhelmed and resuming catch-and-release policy. The courts' time should be reserved for immigration cases that appear to have the most need/merit. And of course, lawful instances of immigration/asylum should always be given priority attention.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

America's classrooms are overflowing with children from everywhere, and they can't even afford basic supplies unless the completely underpaid teachers pay for it out of their own pocket. University education costs have skyrocketed over the last decade. The Arts are no longer funded. Poor people not only can't pay for insurance but they are legally bound to do so or face penalties on their taxes! (Thanks for nothing Obama).

Schools aren't poor because of illegal aliens. Have you been to school? It's not 99 illegals and 1 kid.

They're poor for a variety of reasons mostly involving corruption and waste at the highest levels.

HOSPITALS HOWEVER are absolutely the ones burdened by the uninsured (which includes illegal aliens) and it's a tragic story to read up on. Hospitals that have regular visitors... closing... because they can't afford all the uninsured, which often means the entire area could go without local medical care.

I think if we really want more people coming into the country (which is a fine thing to want), we should stop pretending we don't have a system with which to pass laws. But the solution is not to simply pretend laws don't exist, because why stop there? Why not pretend other laws don't exist? And more so, how do we ensure that laws (that we pretend don't exist) are EQUALLY ignored? It's almost like... we should write the guidelines down into a piece of paper and give it legal authority... we could call it... "a law."

video

And one last angle, why should Mexicans be the ones we let it without having to go through the immigration system? All my Indian and Chinese friends from college have... college degrees and now work for Tesla, and fuel-cell research, and more. They worked their ASSES OFF to get into this country.

If we're really going to use "sad story" as a means to let people into the country? That's not an immigrant. That's a refuge. And I'm completely fine letting them in, away from their "terrible lives", once we've insured they're not carrying diseases, and not criminals/gangs (the role of proper immigration services). They get temporary status, and perhaps, the chance to stay here WHILE APPLYING to be a legal immigrant.

You can't protect people legally (from say, rapists), who doesn't EXIST on paper.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Funny, this separation of law breaking, illegal immigrants was happening when Clinton was in office, not a peep. When Bush was in office, not a peep, when Obama was in office, not a peep. Suddenly Trump is in office and it is all his fault. So he fixes it, and it is still his fault.

Talk about liberal bullshit.

--
Deluxe Pacman 1 & 2 (free) with source code available
https://nitehackr.github.io/games_index.html

Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

I propose an international pact that expands/shrinks nations' borders based on immigration numbers.

Elias said:

I feel the world has turned into an evil and godless place.

Good will never die out, because goodness itself is a good idea--and good ideas live on whether the world of man wants them to or not.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Elias said:

I feel the world has turned into an evil and godless place.

Would you say allowing people to break your laws, enter your nation and take what isn't theirs, possibly with intent to harm your citizens is good or evil?

Would you say allowing people to enter the nation who obey the laws, and go through the proper channels so they can be checked to make certain they don't plan to do anything wrong is good, or evil?

When we start allowing people to break the law and even encourage it and attack those good men who are trying to prevent lawlessness and evil, than you bring evil upon yourself.

Support good men who are against lawlessness (evil) and want good for your people, and those who enter your nation through proper channels, and you will have a better nation. It's up to the people. Support evil, and you get evil.

--
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https://nitehackr.github.io/games_index.html

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Another point towards the fact my Indian and China friends worked their asses off to get here. India and China have huge levels of poverty. Why doesn't their suffering matter? Why is the Mexico case so special? Because CHEAP LABOR for corporations.

https://www.texastribune.org/2016/12/19/big-name-businesses-exploit-immigrant-labor/

Once again, when the government doesn't know you exist, it can't protect you.

Quote:

While his immigration status hasn’t posed a significant roadblock to his continued employment, it has exposed him to the risks that come with working in the shadows. He and his fellow custodians have repeatedly been paid less than minimum wage and worked six or seven days a week with no overtime pay, according to court records and Texas Tribune interviews. In some cases, they accumulated those overtime hours when Target managers would lock them in the store for extra tasks.

If we're going to pretend that this is about sadness and suffering, why the hell is Mexico the only country getting the sadness discount?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China

And why India and China as examples? Because they're IN OUR COUNTRY, just like Mexicans, except they're actually working toward degrees, abiding laws, and they used a legal system to get here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentage_of_population_living_in_poverty

Meanwhile, why has no one in the news ever mentioned Madagascar? They've only got 82% POVERTY (making less than $1.9 a day).

Why don't we save them? Don't they matter? Doesn't their suffering matter?

Could it perhaps be... it'd cost lots of money to ship them over, and corporations want cheap, poor people, who will work for nothing, that can simply walk over the border and start working sub-human conditions for below minimum wage? Hmmm....

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Latest news flash. Socialism is taking over the Democratic party. :P

The latest move is to abolish ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement). The law is broken, so let's disband the police instead of fixing the law. Freaking ridiculous.

relpatseht
Member #5,034
September 2004
avatar

Mostly Guatemalans seeking asylum, actually (and a totally legal thing to do), but irrelevant.

It isn't about helping people in need, it's about how we are treating people once they get here. Separating families (without even any form of tracking), indefinite holding times, no due process, stripping naturalization, etc, etc. Like I said, I don't care about helping people, but I'm not about to intentionally step on them either.

I don't know. I encounter undocumented immigrants pretty regularly, just living their lives. It really doesn't feel evil to me to let them be, but I'm pretty sure it would feel rather malicious to call up some force to pluck them from their community. Equating goodness with abiding the law and evil with breaking it seems a bit ridiculous to me.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Illegal immigrants might get taken advantage of, raped, and exploited in America, but you're assuming they're treated better where they came from. They come to America because it's better than what they have, and there's a chance they can escape it. They're likely subject to rape and exploitation where they are. I was just reading about how Mexicans that have a decent income for Mexico are targeted by gangs and extorted at gunpoint. They'll kill your family, take your property, take your money by force. It obviously varies by region just as it does in America, but I don't think people living in a peaceful and prosperous region of Mexico would be fleeing it. They might be treated as subhumans in parts of America, but they're already treated as subhumans in parts of Mexico.

I think that it's fair to enforce border laws, but I also acknowledge that it's a complicated issue with no black and white answers. The world is not black and white. Families illegally crossing the border probably should not be separated. And honestly if there are so many people trying to illegally cross the border then America should probably try to think of a better solution to the problem than enforcement. Enforcement rarely works in cases where the numbers exceed the resources. Instead, perhaps America should agree to help make Mexico a less terrible place. Probably by reinvesting some of the money used to fight the immigration problem you could help to make parts of Mexico more prosperous and more resilient to violence/gangs. Of course, you'd need the assistance of the Mexican government, which I would assume they'd be more than willing to agree to, and you'd likely need to send and train "security" personnel to fight off the gangs and basically make it not worth their time.

I don't know what the solutions are to Mexico's problems, but obviously you won't solve the problem by imprisoning people trying to escape. It'll just keep on happening forever. Either that's a problem or it's not. If it's a problem, consider redirecting resources to solve it instead.

Sort of like the war against drugs. It has never been successful, and if anything has only made matters worse. The resources could be better spent providing rehabilitation services and counseling, safe supplies like needles and things, and possibly even providing the drugs themselves (guaranteed not to be laced with even worse shit). At the very least, stop imprisoning people for marijuana use. It's likely to do more harm than good, and the disruption to their life will probably only lead them to worse drugs and bigger social problems that tax payers will have to foot the bill for.

Append:

Why Mexico? Because they're your neighbors, and that makes it your problem.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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bamccaig said:

Why Mexico? Because they're your neighbors, and that makes it your problem.

Because Mexico is a hub for heroin and cocaine smugglers. How do you think all those drugs from Central America get into the US? 80% of the drugs in the country come from outside our borders, and 90% of the heroin. But sure, let's just let any old anybody into our country. :P

If you want to actually solve the immigration crisis, then the solution is to expand the work visa and green card programs, not to imprison innocent people looking for work and the opportunity to grow up in a country free of civil war and violence. I know some illegals who work at a local restaurant and they're great people. They just want the chance to earn decent pay like anyone else. I don't want people like that deported, just the criminals.

relpatseht
Member #5,034
September 2004
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The war on drugs is a horribly failed experiment. Attempting to fight a black market just makes the black market more dangerous. Obviating the black market is the only effective solution.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Because Mexico is a hub for heroin and cocaine smugglers. How do you think all those drugs from Central America get into the US? 80% of the drugs in the country come from outside our borders, and 90% of the heroin.

I'm not sure what your point is. Are they importing the drugs for Mexicans to do? No, they're importing it for Americans to do. Maybe if Americans would spend their money more wisely there wouldn't be such a huge market for smuggling drugs into America. Again, solve the drug problem instead of prolonging it and a lot of that will disappear too.

Quote:

But sure, let's just let any old anybody into our country. :P

How very Christian-like of you. What ever happened to forgiveness? There's no such thing as good people or bad people. There's just people. Some of them just need more community support than others to stay out of trouble.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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bamccaig said:

I'm not sure what your point is. Are they importing the drugs for Mexicans to do? No, they're importing it for Americans to do. Maybe if Americans would spend their money more wisely there wouldn't be such a huge market for smuggling drugs into America. Again, solve the drug problem instead of prolonging it and a lot of that will disappear too.

If you can't get drugs, you can't do drugs. Also, it's called an addiction for a reason. If you never get started because the drug smugglers can't get their drugs into your country, , then you don't end up dead from an overdose. I know two people in my city which is not super large who both died from heroin OD.

bamccaig said:

How very Christian-like of you. What ever happened to forgiveness?

It's not about forgiveness. It's about our country supporting people who don't belong here. Our country gives billions of dollars in aid to central and south america, and you have the balls to complain when we want to keep illegal aliens (including drug smugglers, human traffickers, rapists, and criminals) out of our country?

I love how most countries (that aren't the US) like to blame the US for all the problems in the world, but then they turn around and ask us to fix all of their problems for them.

bamccaig said:

There's no such thing as good people or bad people. There's just people.

{"name":"oreally.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/e\/1\/e1088404363f903cff29d177600333eb.jpg","w":1920,"h":1080,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/e\/1\/e1088404363f903cff29d177600333eb"}oreally.jpg

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

If you can't get drugs, you can't do drugs. Also, it's called an addiction for a reason. If you never get started because the drug smugglers can't get their drugs into your country, , then you don't end up dead from an overdose. I know two people in my city which is not super large who both died from heroin OD.

You will never prevent the importation, manufacture, or distribution of illicit narcotics in America. Prohibition doesn't work. It never has. You cannot possibly protect every mile of coast and border in your country, let alone that it's possible to whip up illicit narcotics using ingredients readily available already in your country. People will always find ways to get things across or make them from scratch, and the harder you make it the more profitable you make it. Supply and demand.

There's nothing wrong with trying to prevent or at least limit the amount of harmful narcotics that are used in your country, but you also need to accept that it'll get through anyway, and blaming some other country is just naive. For one thing, there are a whole lot of Americans involved in the process too. They're just satisfying a demand, as unfortunate as the demand is. Instead you should accept that people in your country with social issues (and there's no shortage, thanks in part to your government and upper classes, as well as your overall selfish and ignorant culture!) are going to be desperate enough to try illicit narcotics and will then become addicted to them.

The solution is solving the social issues that lead people to depend on drugs. Not policing and enforcement. All that does it hurt more people.

Quote:

I love how most countries (that aren't the US) like to blame the US for all the problems in the world, but then they turn around and ask us to fix all of their problems for them.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that America is largely responsible for many of the world's problems (at least the ones people expect America to help out with). ::)

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