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Santa portrayed as having a gay, black husband...
jmasterx
Member #11,410
October 2009

I never said there had to be.

I was not really aiming that at you. It was a general observation :)

Derezo said:

Because Mrs. Claus was a ho

Huh... I didn't know she was of Asian descent.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Well, in His jolly ways He never makes it a secret that she was a ho, ho ho...

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Neil Roy said:

No, not one, but TWO builders, as you see, it takes TWO flies to make a baby fly. Perhaps you never heard the tale of the birds and the bees? All life, requires life. A fly has never popped MAGICALLY into existence out of nothing in the history of the world. It came from pre-existing life, two flies before it. This is an absolute fact.

The parent flies are not "building" the offspring flies. They are merely combining the biological ingredients for the natural processes to take over. For the natural laws of the universe to act upon the matter that the cells are composed of, morphing the matter into new forms. There's no intelligent creator needed here. The laws of the universe make everything happen automatically.

Women aren't making babies. Their bodies do that automatically. That's why even the biggest idiot parents can make a baby. The laws of the universe act upon the matter, the biological processes happen automatically, and a baby forms assuming its needs are sufficiently met.

Neil Roy said:

You have a ton of BELIEFS, and a ton of pseudo-science with a whole lot of unproven theories, many which actually defy known laws of physics.

Law of biogenesis: Life only comes from pre-existing life. This has been observed and proven.

Law of thermodynamics: Energy conservation states that matter cannot be created or destroyed. The universe MAGICALLY popping into existence from absolutely nothing defies this law on the greatest scale possible. Plus there is absolutely no evidence for it what so ever.

Information (DNA) requires intelligence.

Intelligent design requires an intelligent designer. NEVER in the history of the world has ANYTHING with form and function been designed out of chaotic events. EVER.

Sorry buddy, but REAL science supports an intelligent, all powerful Creator, your pseudo-science has absolutely NO evidence what so ever to support it. Not even a shred. 8-)

I'll just leave this here.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Wow, lots of posts.

Hindus believe in many Gods and they're a current, popular religion.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Moving my focus away from debate, as I have said all I wish to say as far as debating God's existence goes.

jmasterx said:

In keeping with this theme, I personally find the bible to be a great set of guiding principals to have a happy, functional, homologous society. But it requires at least majority consensus to work. If I follow The Bible perfectly, but no one else does, then my being a perfect citizen is meaningless and does not practically help society as a whole. If everyone does though, then we have a great society

I agree with your last sentence. But If you study what the Bible says and give it some honest thought, you would see that much of it is for your own health and well being. If you followed it perfectly, than you would have a longer, happier, healthier life. And if you believe there really is a God that is just, than you will be rewarded for your obedience and all those who were not, will be judged (doesn't mean they will all be destroyed in a lake of fire like many Sunday churches teach, I don't subscribe to that idea at all) and God will decide what will happen to them at that time. Many people will actually be forgiven, if Jesus' own life is any indication. He forgave many people on the spot who hadn't even repented. The man on the cross beside him, the adulterous woman, the Samaritan woman at the well as well as many more.

There is a common idea that the majority is always right, but in my own close to 53 years of life (as of Jan 20th), I have found the opposite to be true. The majority is almost always wrong and only a tiny minority tends to have it right. I have always said, if everyone agrees with me, I will sit down and re-examine my beliefs as I will know I am doing something wrong. But as it is, I usually get both Christians (Sunday Christians especially) and atheists angry at me. Which is fine by me. I don't follow any of this world's churches, most of them are so off track is pityful. I only follow the Bible. If you actually give it a chance, grab a modern translation (NIV and NKJV are good), they are easier to read and understand... then just read them, you will find what they teach often differs from what modern churches teach. MANY of this world's church doctrines are found NO WHERE in the Bible. Not when it is properly translated anyhow.

The Bible is a good read, I read the entire thing and loved it. Once you get past the books of law and genealogy, it gets really good, I couldn't put it down to be honest. I have an audio bible with each chapter of the NIV on MP3s and I will play it on a music player instead of music when I go for walks. I love it, what can I say.

Not trying to preach at anyone, just trying to get people to open their minds to other possibilities. I have had a few genuine miracles happen to me, the main one was that I had type 2 diabetes. I prayed about it and I was healed. I used to be on three meds a day (4 pills, metformin, januvia and lipitor). I haven't taken them or had symptoms of it for two years. I have been cured, by God, and nobody will ever convince me otherwise. I could list a bunch more things I prayed about and was cured, but this is already a lengthy post. One time I literally felt a wave of calm wash over me as soon as I got done praying when I was a nervous wreck that left me in a euphoria for days, that is something I will never forget. I don't bother seeing a family doctor anymore... anyhow... I'll await the attack and scoffer replies a now. ;)

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Neil Roy said:

I have been cured, by God, and nobody will ever convince me otherwise. ... I don't bother seeing a family doctor anymore...

ClutteredPitifulCuscus-max-1mb.gif

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Wow, even praying for a cure and getting one won't convince you, wow, you are hopelessly lost. Unreal. I could die and be resurrected from the dead and I swear some scoffer could come up with a "rational" explanation as to how it happened. Unreal...

I am reminded why I don't even bother to tell people of the many miracles that happened to me as a direct result to prayer. I don't feel like being mocked for everything good that GOD did for me! I guess I shouldn't be surprised, apparantly people are totally cured of this every day where you come from, but in my country my oldest brother died from complications of a lifetime of diabetes, I have a friend who is missing a leg now, no thanks to it. But... yeah, Neil is just a crazy man, it's all in his imagination. Why, his diabetes would have vanished on it's own probably right?! ::)

Isaiah 29:20 (NIV)
The ruthless will vanish, the mockers will disappear, and all who have an eye for evil will be cut down

Acts 13:41 (NIV)
“‘Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe, even if someone told you.’”

Keep it up, and some day you WILL be sorry.

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

Quote:

I don't make resolutions, but I may this year. To stay out of religious debates.

Day 5 will give you another chance. Like every following day. :P

Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

Neil Roy said:

I don't bother seeing a family doctor anymore...

Are you missing something?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Years of thorough research have revealed that the red "x" that closes a window, really isn't red, but white on red background.

Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

jmasterx
Member #11,410
October 2009

Neil Roy said:

I prayed about it and I was healed

With the way I see the world, I would need 100 participants with type 2 diabetes. 50 that pray, and 50 that do not.

If a statistically significant amount of those that pray are healed, I now believe that, praying may not prove the existence of a God, but it could be releasing endorphins that help the body heal. A positive state of mine can heal a lot of things. And I think The Bible, and those beliefs can help someone stay positive even when they are at their lowest.

I like the idea of blending science and religion. I think both have value and play a role. I do not believe in choosing one or the other.

I do like a lot of what you said in your reply though. The Bible is certainly useful for an individual, too.

I would also say that, being in touch with your body, and having a positive state of mind, is in some respects better than living in fear and putting your fate in doctors. Modern medicine has its place in the world, and it can save lives, but so to can positive thinking that can be enhanced by following the Bible and having faith in a higher power. It's healthy for the mind, body, and spirit, and for a lot of people, religion is that thing that helps them generate those positive endorphins that help them win against cancer, diabetes, etc.

I myself have had loads of medical problems. All of which were caused by a malpractice at my birth. Neither of my parents are religious whatsoever. But I am a fighter, and today even with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spastic_hemiplegia I still manage to type with 1 hand. Now I get wrist pain, but I still can. And I have a really good software development job. Because I think positively. And I'm a fighter at heart. I never let anything get in my way. When I get sick, I never take any medication. I listen to my body, and think positive thoughts, and heal. I know, I sound like a hippy. But I just think people abuse of modern medicine. I do not need drugs when I have a cold or sore throat. Gosh.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Polybios said:

Day 5 will give you another chance. Like every following day. :P

LMAO, yup! I'm restarting fresh today. ;) Only replying to you. I am tempted to respond further but it would be pointless.

Thanks for the light hearted reply, it was refreshing. :)

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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I have to admit I had stopped paying much attention to this because debate breaks down to the same members going head to head over the religion discussion and quickly reaches beating a dead horse level of debating. Then I saw Edgar's quote and was absolutely dumbfounded...

If you don't believe Christ was the Son of God then there is no reason for you to go to church, or to even read the New Testament, because it would all be based on a false premise.

Do you realize that many Christians start out not believing in God, Christ, or any of that, and reading the bible is what changes their views?

One religious group I wish would go away are Jehovah's Witnesses. There are some Emmy award winning idiots, met a JW EMT when I was transporting my son via ambulance to a doctor's appointment in Indianapolis. I told him my faith was wavering because on one hand I can look around and see God's work, but then every time I almost lose my son due to one of his episodes it makes me question why God would allow an innocent child to suffer. The EMT then informed me, he could change my outlook, then proceeded to tell me that Earth is Satan's domain (ie Hell) and that people with disabilities were his children. Before I could say a word he then proceed to play a JW video that articulated in more detail what he had just said. At that point I exercised "turning the other cheek" because if I had reacted on what my gut was telling me, the EMT would've needed an EMT. Been sifting through their videos for a while now, but yet to find the one he played for me.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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:(

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Edgar Reynaldo said:

If you don't believe Christ was the Son of God then there is no reason for you to go to church, or to even read the New Testament, because it would all be based on a false premise.

Do you realize that many Christians start out not believing in God, Christ, or any of that, and reading the bible is what changes their views?

Yes, Specter, I realize that. I was speaking specifically to people who claim to be Christian but don't believe in Christ.

Edit
Likewise, if you don't believe Jesus came back to life, then you're not really Christian either, and if Christ didn't live again, surely you won't either. But if Christ did live again, then he has defeated Death, and we will live again with Him.

The Resurrection of the Dead

12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.

14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith.

15 In that case, we are also exposed as false witnesses about God. For we have testified about God that He raised Christ from the dead, but He did not raise Him if in fact the dead are not raised.

16 For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised.

17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

19 If our hope in Christ is for this life alone, we are to be pitied more than all men.

Neil, pay attention to verse 18. What do you think that means?

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Neil, pay attention to verse 18. What do you think that means?

Whenever you read about someone "falling asleep", that means death. In this case, if Jesus was not raised up from the dead, than all those who believed in Him that have died have perished, that is, they will also never rise again (given the premise that Jesus did not rise). Note that they are referred to as "asleep" (which Jesus clarified means "dead"), not in heaven (contrary to John 3:13).

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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It baffles me why being "dead" "for real" is such a terrible thing. As far as we know, your brain stops functioning and your consciousness ceases to exist. No pleasure, but also no pain. If I had to gamble between eternal torture and eternal pleasure, I'd rather hedge my bet on nothing at all. I want to be happy as often as possible on Earth, but I am not so greedy that I need it to last forever. I'm happy for it all to end. I can imagine why ancient people would have feared the afterlife and imagined some graceful paradise to motivate them through life, but personally I don't need such a thing. Life here on Earth is pretty good so far. I'd rather it all ended in the end. Forever sounds like a really long time, and I don't imagine Heaven could ever be that interesting.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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bamccaig said:

If I had to gamble between eternal torture and eternal pleasure, I'd rather hedge my bet on nothing at all.

This is a topic that other "Christians" will argue against me. But it all fairness to you, there is no "eternal torture" mentioned in the Bible anywhere. That is entirely an invention of Roman Catholicism. The Catholics got most of their ideas from Roman gods and traditions, not from the Bible.

For example, the idea of "Hell" comes from a pagan goddess named "Hel" (one "L"), and she was the goddess of the underworld etc. The Greek word which many will recognize as meaning hell, is "hades", but if you research the word, you will discover that it actually means "the grave". The fact is, the wicked, those who disobey God and reject Him, even to His face when Jesus returns, will be destroyed in a lake of fire, but it will not be eternal torture, it is called the "second death". So if dying and staying dead doesn't bother you, than fear not, that is exactly what is coming to those who reject God. Personally, you seem like a nice guy, even in spite of our differences and I do not wish a fiery destruction on you. I think that when reality hits and you see Jesus some day after you are resurrected from the dead (and you're probably rolling your eyes at me now), you will at that time not want to die a final fiery death, but it may be too late. Also, many of this worlds churches teach about some sort of eternity in heaven, but that is also not taught in the Bible. A big a surprise as that may be. In fact, you can find a verse, John 3:13 where Jesus Himself stated that no man has ever been to heaven. Then when you study prophecies you find out that we don't go to heaven (or hell, hell doesn't exist), we die and we stay dead (just as you probably believe now), but Jesus resurrects the dead. Jesus actually rules right here, on Earth, and the nations still exist.

But, putting all that aside, I think there are some really good reasons to want to be resurrected to eternal life. For one, all the sadness, pain and death and everything negative will be gone. It will be a world unlike any you or I have ever seen. The Bible states that ALL will be restored and made new. So that means dinosaurs will be back, as well as many creatures we probably never knew existed. The nature of animals will be changed so they will no longer be afraid of us and no longer be a danger. The Bible even states that animals like tigers, wolves and even snakes will have their nature changed so they eat grass and not prey upon each other and that snakes will be so tame that they won't hurt a child. So that alone will be something to look forward to, but I also think that we may even venture out into the universe and possibly do some of our own creating, I don't know. I can only speculate. The Bible states that God is preparing something for us that we cannot even imagine right now.

I know this seems so far fetched, you're probably in tears laughing at me, but I really wish you would consider it as possibly true. Honestly give the idea of a Creator a chance, TRY prayer, in private so nobody knows, just to see... what harm could it do? I think if you examine God's laws you will see that if everyone kept them, it would be a MUCH better world. Heck, if just ONE of God's laws were kept universally it would be an immensely better world. But there are personal benefits to obeying them.

I don't know, not trying to preach to you, but just trying to get you to see reason. I know you don't believe me, but I was healed, several times. Type 2 diabetes, gone, I had a bad leg infection, gone, occular migraines, gone. I could give a lengthy list of things I have prayed for. Heck, my wife whom I will be married to for 33 years as of February 8th was a result of prayer! She said no to me when I asked her to marry me, so I prayed about her, I didn't want to lose her as a friend. Then suddenly, a couple months later, she came back to me and changed her mind. The first place we moved into had a brand new Bible sitting in it, almost like a sign. Again... I know you don't believe me, maybe ou think I am lying, I am not. But... there are benefits and believe it or not, you WILL want to enjoy the coming kingdom of God, which is not on a cloud in the sky, but here, on Earth, with nations that exist now. And God is NOT unmerciful an cruel, he does NOT burn people forever in some sort of "hell"; I can't stand that doctrine, it makes God out to be vicious and cruel, I wouldn't want to believe in Him either if He was that way, but He is not.

Anyhow... I didn't want to continue on in here, but I also can't just brush you off like that either when I genuinely care about your well being and the road you are on. Even if you don't see it yourself. The truth will someday hit home and I hope you don't wait until you are facing a fiery destruction. Because forever dead, is a very long time. To me, being wiped out of existence is frightening to contemplate, but an eternity in a better world with God only knows what to do... we will have an entire universe, who knows. Could be God's version of Minecraft with our own worlds for all I know. Put computer games to shame! ;) I personally can't wait.

Ah well... rambling on again, but I really wish I had a way to explain the truth better to people and open their minds to the logic and reality of God.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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Yes, Specter, I realize that. I was speaking specifically to people who claim to be Christian but don't believe in Christ.

Sorry, I had misunderstood the context of your argument.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Neil Roy said:

Whenever you read about someone "falling asleep", that means death. In this case, if Jesus was not raised up from the dead, than all those who believed in Him that have died have perished, that is, they will also never rise again (given the premise that Jesus did not rise). Note that they are referred to as "asleep" (which Jesus clarified means "dead"), not in heaven (contrary to John 3:13).

Edgar Reynaldo said:

16 For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised.

17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

This is a counter argument. If those who have "fallen asleep" in Christ (died in Christ) have died, then our faith is futile. However, it is saying that the dead in Christ have not perished. That means they are alive. If they are living, then why would they be in the ground? Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind. Where did he go? Where did Moses and Elijah come from if not heaven? They were witnessed with Jesus. Where did Jesus go? Where is Jesus now? Heaven is wherever God is.

John 14:2 said:

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

If Jesus has prepared a place for us, and it is with him, and he is in Heaven, then where do you think people go when they die?

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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If Jesus has prepared a place for us, and it is with him, and he is in Heaven, then where do you think people go when they die?

If everyone dies and goes to heaven or hell, who is in their graves that still need to be resurrected when Jesus returns?

Anyhow, you obviously really didn't want to know my opinion, you were just baiting me to get me involved in yet another biblical debate, except now, instead of an atheist, I am attacked by a "Christian". Well, if I tell you I am heading off to a factory I work at to build you a car, does that mean when it is time for you to receive your car, than you will have to come to the factory to get it? If Jesus says I go to prepare a place and return, that tells me that I am not going anywhere, but that He is coming back where I am. He didn't say "I go to prepare a place and then I will send someone to get you, or bring you to where I am", now did He?

I have some solid scriptures to back up all my beliefs, but I have had these "conversations" with you and MANY other Sunday Christians before (for literally decades, before the internet on BBSes in fact), and they lead absolutely nowhere good. Even though I may quote solid Scripture which cannot be debated against, I find people do anyhow and always find a way around it because they try and fit their beliefs into the Bible, instead of letting the Bible alter their beliefs.

You might be surprised at the number of ridiculous things I have heard about John 3:13 where by the time the person is done explaining their idea to me, they have it saying the exact opposite of what that verse, and the rest of the Bible states.

Anyhow, I'm not going to get into a verse war with you. Believe what you wish, if you don't want to believe what the Bible clearly says and you prefer what your church taught you, than have at it. I'll stick to what my Bible says and TRY to avoid these debates (though that seems like an uphill battle at the moment).

Have a good day.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Fine, don't take the bait. However, I am genuinely intrigued why you continue to believe in such a thing as people living in the ground. I will try not to insult your knowledge of the Bible but I just can't understand where you are getting these ideas from. And if you want to piss me off by all means call me a Sunday Christian again.

Cheers

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Neil Roy said:

Wow, even praying for a cure and getting one won't convince you, wow, you are hopelessly lost.

I think this is one of the funniest things I've read in one of these discussions ;D

Neil Roy said:

TRY prayer, in private so nobody knows, just to see... what harm could it do?

Prayer actually is very powerful, and doing things like praying for a cure will help you to realign your own life to help make that happen (ie. by eating properly in the case of low grade diabetes).

Recently we started praying before meals, as I mentioned I'm in a relationship with a Christian, and some phenomenal things have happened. One particular incident has been dubbed 'a miracle' by many witnesses.

A homeless meth addict stole a bike from a friend of mine. I went to elementary school with said homeless guy and was considering messaging him on Facebook (even homeless people have Facebook here) and asking him to at least apologise. The following Thursday evening at dinner I prayed for this, that he would go to my friend's shop and apologise to him and try to correct his wrongs.

The next day, on Friday, I went to my friend's shop and he said the homeless guy had come in, trembling and terrified, apologised, and handed his wife a letter.

The letter read something along the lines of "I am deeply sorry for the immature acts I have done to you, and I ask for your forgiveness in Jesus glorious name.", and it was signed.

When I read the letter I was floored. I took pictures, showed it to everyone, it was amazing.

The following week he returned and paid my friend $200 to replace the bike. How he got that money I have no idea, but it happened.

There is much more to the story of how this came about than just me and my prayer. He was also refused entry to the homeless shelter and the staff there, who are also mutual friends and attend the same shop, told him he was no longer welcome until he repaid for the bike. They convinced him to do it...

... but, still, my prayer was answered.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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While you're at pointless faith fighting (not believing is still a form of faith), what about Dinosaurs ? And the fact that the earth is a globe ?

And the fact that US French have both the wine AND the cheese ?

;D

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