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Santa portrayed as having a gay, black husband...
bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I don't know why you keep saying that I don't know what science is. ??? Science is the collection of human knowledge about the universe as discovered by experimental and verifiable tests.

While some things that cannot be verified or tested are still classified as sciences, I personally don't put much faith in those. I.e., the touchy-feely sciences like social sciences.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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No, science is a method. And social sciences don't have to be bad, it's just that they are often not practiced in a proper way. But think about the natural sciences, that's where we have most of our knowledge from, and that's the best kind of science we have. But like I said, it's not about the knowledge, it's about the method.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Au Contrare, Mon Frere,

I've taken philosophy, it thinks it has disproved God through the problem of evil.

I've taken science, it doesn't disprove God to me. The Bible I know doesn't disagree with science.

None of you have given me any reason to give up my beliefs. That they aren't "verifiable" doesn't bother me.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Science is sort of like open source software. Anybody can "do" science. Anybody can "create" science. However, it's only as trustworthy as you are until others have peer reviewed your work and verified it to be correct.

If I write a banking program and tell you that it's safe how do you know that it really is? To start with you probably don't. If it's open source, you can review the code and verify that you trust it. Or other people you trust can verify it for you.

If it's proprietary you have no way of knowing. You have to just trust me or not.

Religion is like proprietary software. You have no way to verify that it does what it claims to do. You just have to trust the people selling it. I don't.

There is a lot of junk science in the world just as there is junk software. There's no way to prevent this. Science is peer-to-peer. There is no central authority on it for good reason. What is accepted as correct is what the overall scientific community agrees is correct based on peer review and reproduced results.

You can always find "scientists" to refute the scientific ideas you disagree with, but unless the scientific community respects and agrees with those individuals what they say doesn't matter. Trusting these people is like trusting Zhang Wei with your banking information without letting you review the code. :P

The problem with social sciences is that it's next to impossible to control the variables of the experiment. If you cannot control the experiment then you cannot fully rely on the results of the experiment. There's still value in trying to apply the scientific method to these areas of study and building upon the results, but the knowledge we gain from it is far more susceptible to biases. A certain amount of "faith" is needed to trust in these sciences. I tend not to trust them as much.

This is what empowers the pharmaceutical companies to sell us poisons at a premium. The science is inconclusive. The results are fuzzy and open to interpretation. It's healthy to be skeptical of these results. It's healthy to question science. It's just not healthy to outright reject the entire body of work based on a subset of faulty results.

Append:

I'm not trying to get you to give up your beliefs. I don't care what you believe. I believe that you should be free to believe what you want. I'm simply opposing attempts to assert the correctness of your beliefs. :P

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Yay! I dodged a bullet! ;D

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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I am free from scrutiny because I don't give a rats ass what a non-believer thinks. :)

Oh, and your logic is flawed. Because scientific ideas are "peer reviewed", what that means is that other scientists review it. By that logic, you have no right to review my religion unless you are a "peer", that is, a fellow believer.

You want to attack our beliefs using science. But you don't think it is okay for me to attack science using just my Bible. Unless we have an equal playing field, than forget it! When a religious person is allowed to be a part of the peer review system in science, than you will be allowed to review my beliefs, and not until then!

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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There are plenty of religious scientists that are part of the respected scientific community. They accept that science is about exploring the universe for the truth, and religion has no part in that. They separate their professional lives from their personal lives like most of us do.

You're welcome to scrutinize science all you want. Nobody is going to care what you say unless what you say actually works though. That goes for me as well. I'm not about to curb scientists minds either. They're the experts on the matter. I don't know much beyond high school science, which is already rusty.

You don't even need science to discredit the Bible though. The Bible does that to itself.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Felix-The-Ghost
Member #9,729
April 2008
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I'm curious if anyone here has read any of the various Lee Strobel books that are pretty much what this derailed thread is about.

@Black husband yeah I vaguely remember seeing that book, maybe in a Mark Dice video or something. Pretty funny teachers are reading it to children unironically ;D

Happy New Year.

==========================
<--- The ghost with the most!
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[Website] [Youtube]

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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bamccaig said:

You don't even need science to discredit the Bible though. The Bible does that to itself.

Okay, a fair enough statement. Now I expect you to do what you would demand of me if I made an absolute statement like that, and I want to see your evidence, from the Bible, that discredits it.

1) First, I will need to see your definition of what exactly you mean by "discredit itself".

2) I will need to see your evidence from the Bible which you claim discredits it.

I have seen this attack before, so I am no newcomer to this. I have studied all the alleged contradictions and have yet to see a single contradiction I cannot explain. And I have actually read my Bible from cover to cover, a few times over, from different translations. I have studied the history of it etc... I am not bragging, just warning you that I am well prepared.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Neil Roy said:

I have studied all the alleged contradictions and have yet to see a single contradiction I cannot explain. And I have actually read my Bible from cover to cover, a few times over, from different translations. I have studied the history of it etc... I am not bragging, just warning you that I am well prepared.

All you really are is closed-minded with an excuse for everything. As you said, you've already heard the contradictions. You just can't comprehend them. I cannot help you with that. That doesn't change the fact that the Bible is self-defeating as far as myself and many other like minded people are concerned.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Mark Dice video or something.

I have some of his politic stances... but God I HATE the way he speaks. It's so overly sarcastic. It's like... something my dad or grandfather would listen to. It's ... so revolting the way he normally speaks...

Here's a video of his I randomly selected:

video

Ugh.... uuuggghh.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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Late to the discussion, but I've not yet read Politically Correct Bedtime Stories, but I've heard of the author, James Finn Garner. PCBS is satire as is, I believe all of his work in one way or another. His web site is: http://jamesfinngarner.com/

Was reading his bio and started scratching my head when I read this line:

Quote:

His latest project is the clown noir mystery series starring “Rex Koko, Private Clown”.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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The World is going nuts go thing i have long signed out of it i am now signed into my own world. the libs can have the old world until it is destroyed

wow
-------------------------------
i am who you are not am i

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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bamccaig said:

All you really are is closed-minded with an excuse for everything.

That statement oozes irony! Are you open minded? Are you willing to accept that there may be an eternal God that created everything?

I am still waiting for your alleged contradictions or show me how the Bible discredits itself. I am not a pushover, I have studied these in depth, so be certain you have a valid claim before you post it.

Maybe you should stop attacking God's word and start studying it and believe it. It would do you much more good and you would be blessed in all you do if you turned back to God, for He is quick to forgive and full of mercy.

dusthillresident
Member #16,778
December 2017

Neil Roy, how did you become a christian - where did you first hear about christianity? And how old were you when you were convinced and started to believe? What proof was it that convinced you to start believing?

piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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Read the Bible and look around you

wow
-------------------------------
i am who you are not am i

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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People all over the world believe in the same god their parents do, and they're all convinced that that god just happens to be the real deal. And it's usually a suspiciously human god, too.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Neil Roy, how did you become a christian - where did you first hear about christianity? And how old were you when you were convinced and started to believe? What proof was it that convinced you to start believing?

Growing up, I couldn't stand church to be honest. And I still can't stand churches. :) I definitely do not believe the same as the rest of my family, we have butted heads many a time over it. Growing up I just never honestly gave it ANY thought at all really, at least until I was 14. The first time I ever thought at all about it, aside from the Sunday school I went to and hated, was when I was around 14 and a teacher asked a question in class, a science class of some sort, the details are fuzzy in my memory now (see what you remember in 38 years!). I don't recall what the question was, but it had something to do with evolution (PLEASE DO NOT START A DAMN EVOLUTION DEBATE!) and my answer at the time was to do with the human eye and asked the teacher, how could an organ evolve, to see something that it did not even knew existed, like the eye, how could it have evolved to sense light which it didn't know existed, and then, how would it go about evolving? And who or what is making all the descisions about how to evolve etc... etc... it just didn't make sense to me at all. That was the very first time I questioned everything and seen intelligent design, logically and how there had to be a greater power. But I still didn't like churches, and still don't. I had some questions about them at an even earlier age, like 12 or so when I seen a preacher with a cell phone in church in around 1977... yes... a cell phone... only this one was HUGE that required a breifcase to carry it and my first thought while watching him on stage was... "this is where the people's money is going". And that opinion never changed either.

I don't attend church of any sort, I am not affiliated with any of them. I just logically, and intelligently reasoned that there must be a powerful, eternal Creator. I call Him God but admittedly don't know His name.

torhu said:

People all over the world believe in the same god their parents do, and they're all convinced that that god just happens to be the real deal. And it's usually a suspiciously human god, too.

Nope. My mother never really went to church at all. Growing up she had different boyfriends and went out drinking every weekend and came home drunk. That is, until she got cancer, THEN she turned religious quickly. Not to demean her, she was an otherwise good mother, but she was far from religious.

And my father, well, he was, and still is an atheist. He's a good man as well, very kind a lot of fun to drink with (I had a few with him when I was younger), but he doesn't believe in God at all. He loves to joke with me about coming from monkeys and I just laugh it off. So, no, not everyone follows in their parents footsteps.

I have always said, given the way my parents were, it's a wonder I believe in anything at all! ;D

But, for some reason, my mind was opened to the truth. I studied the Bible; wasn't taught by some church, though I did get some insights from certain people but I never accepted anything that wasn't actually in the Bible. The logic I used at 14 where I realized there must be a God stuck with me and I thought deeply about many other things. Just looking at our bodies and how complex and intelligently they are designed just screams that there must be an all powerful, intelligent designer. Never in the history of mankind has anything randomly come together from nothing an a logical way to form some machine or being.

As programmers, most of us should be able to at least appreciate the fact that a program will NEVER write itself! ALL programs we have ever seem had an intellect behind them that designed, debugged and created them. What more can I say? I'm not trying to preach to anyone, but just stating that I arrived at my current belief using intellect and logic. I could give many many more examples and reasons behind my belief but this is already a lengthy message I am sure most will never read and most will probably scoff and laugh at. Been here before, but my beliefs will never change (actually, I hate the word "belief" as I KNOW there is a God, but...)

Important Note: I am NOT a Sunday Christian, not by a long shot! I only believe what is in my bible. I do not believe in going to heaven (John 3:13) or hell or going to church on Sunday (Genesis 2:2-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Hebrews 4:8-11). I bet I just made a few believers angry at this, but it is all based on what the Bible REALLY says.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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Neil Roy said:

Never in the history of mankind has anything randomly come together from nothing an a logical way to form some machine or being.

Right, because humans did it. But there used to be no humans, no life, no earth, no sun, no universe. Maybe there was always something, though. But inserting a hyper-intelligent, super-powerful being there seems a bit... excessive. We don't have any evidence for it either.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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torhu said:

Right, because humans did it. But there used to be no humans, no life, no earth, no sun, no universe. Maybe there was always something, though. But inserting a hyper-intelligent, super-powerful being there seems a bit... excessive. We don't have any evidence for it either.

Perhaps. What makes more sense, that all intelligent design comes from an intelligence? Or that everything came from nothing and just came together randomly into logical arrangements which are more complex than anything man has created? The latter defies all logic. In fact, it is literally impossible for everything to have come from nothing, UNLESS you have an all powerful, eternal, super intelligent being to create it all. Saying everything came from nothing for no reason with no intellect to create the complex designs we see in every living thing, and the information encoded in DNA... just doesn't make sense. Information always has an intelligence to create it, intelligent design always requires an intelligent designer and the laws of physics state you cannot get something from nothing... heck, I don't need laws to figure that out, common sense tells me that.

In the end, it all boils down to beliefs doesn't it? You believe everything came from nothing and came together randomly, which defies logic (to me anyhow). I believe an all powerful, super intelligent creator designed and created it all, which makes more sense to me.

Which one of these ideas you find foolish is up to you, but both are religions as neither one of them has solid evidence to support them, but one of these ideas makes more sense than the other.

I'm not trying to slam your own beliefs, but I do wish to show that my own were not arrived at randomly and without thought. I have given this a great deal of thought. Even science is now starting to see the universe appears to have been intelligently designed, and so they have come up with a new theory that we are all living inside a computer simulation! I kid you not. I laughed when I first heard this and thought it was a joke, until I looked into it and discovered they were serious.

They just cannot bring themselves to admit the evidence points to a God.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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It's not actually logical to conclude that there had to be an intelligent designer because you aren't able to explain where the designer came from. If the designer could always exist then life could always exist. You don't need the designer anymore. The designer is just lazy thinking. You don't know the answer, you can't imagine how life could occur on its own, so you dream up a magician to do it for you.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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We do exist.

So either a creator CAN come from no where, or OUR UNIVERSE can come from no where. Neither of which disproves the creator idea.

And Occam's Razor isn't a law, merely a reasoning tool. So it doesn't remove the creator either. Just because you "can" represent a system with a simpler model doesn't mean the model is complete. Occam's Razor only works when you're certain you have all the required data and the simpler model works. But we don't know what's outside the universe, so it's not applicable. We can't determine when a simpler model is more appropriate, if the don't even know all the facts we're trying to use as inputs and outputs.

"Occam's Razor is flawed or a fallacy":

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/08/occams-razor/495332/

http://scienceblogs.com/developingintelligence/2007/05/14/why-the-simplest-theory-is-alm/

https://www.quora.com/Is-Occams-Razor-a-fallacy-It-is-used-a-lot-in-the-debunking-of-religion-conspiracy-theories-and-pseudoscience-but-are-we-right-to-use-it-so-Is-it-really-just-another-psychological-bias-that-we-havent-recognized

Quote:

The point is to have the simplest theory that explains the available evidence. If additional evidence is introduced, then this certainly might overturn an older theory. But then the new theory is then the simplest one that explains all available facts, including the new evidence.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Agreed.

Just so it's clear, I'm not trying to disprove the existence of god. That cannot be done.

I don't know if god exists. We also don't know that he does exist. Which means it's at least as valid to not believe in any such being as it is to believe in one.

It's easy for me at least to see that the stories of the Bible come from fallible human minds instead of the all-knowing wisdom of an omnipotent being. Since the only reason we believe in any such god is the Bible and the history of Christianity based upon it we can pretty much rule out the existence of any such god.

If one exists, it likely has no active role in our lives and never did. Honestly, why would it even care about us? That alone doesn't make sense. That's the thinking of a human again (universe centered around me). Let alone, why would a god make us imperfect and then apparently care when we make wrong decisions that it already knows we're going to make?

Oh oh, don't worry, I know, he works "mysteriously". Mysteriously like he was imagined by many, stupid people.



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