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Santa portrayed as having a gay, black husband...
Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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With respect, I think we have polar opposite ideas about what's right and good.

LMAO, wow... yeah... don't steal, don't murder, don't fool around on your wife, don't lie to people, yeah, I see what you mean, how rotten to stop people from doing these things!

You have a twisted idea of what is good.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Well, with the teachings in the Bible you are instructed to murder under various conditions where the other person has committed a sin.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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Santa doesn't want black dick, he pops out to the reindeer stable when he's got urges.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Derezo said:

Well, with the teachings in the Bible you are instructed to murder under various conditions where the other person has committed a sin.

Hell yeah there's dumb stuff in there. But "polar opposite" was what made me laugh.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

dusthillresident
Member #16,778
December 2017

Waste of time, sorry.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Derezo said:

Well, with the teachings in the Bible you are instructed to murder [biblehub.com] under various conditions where the other person has committed a sin.

If you look directly, and only at the law, then you are correct. But you are blindly ignoring the New Testament entirely, where Christ forgave the adulterous woman. The first covenant of the law has been replaced by a better covenant, the covenant of Christ and grace.

If you don't know the entire Bible from a broader context, there's not much point discussing it.

1 Samuel 2:6
"The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up.

Luke 14:11
For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
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I'm genuinely surprised by your knowledge of differentiating the Old Testament versus the New Testament, Edgar. And I mean that without sarcasm. Are you a believer of Jesus / a Christian?

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Yes, I'm a Christian. I studied for several years with Pastor Arnold Murray of Shepherd's Chapel out of Gravette, Arkansas through his over the air broadcasts of Shepherd's Chapel. Line by line, verse by verse reading and teaching of the Bible.

It was a pretty dark time for me, but being able to spend an hour a day studying with Pastor Murray helped me tremendously.

Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
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Good on you. :) I'm also a Christian. I'm not familiar with Pastor Arnold Murray, but it's good to hear he was of great help to you.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Oh no, another Bible debate has spawned. I'll resist all urges to post further in here. I don't need the Christians and the atheists angry at me. 8-)

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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I tell people I'm a Christian Atheist.

So when I grow up, I'll be accepted by both groups!

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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What debate? Unless you want to debate law / grace / etc. Christ set us free from the law of sin and death through forgiveness of sin upon repentance.

Most things people point out in the Bible as signs of God being 'unfair' or 'evil' are taken out of context. This is the grounds of cherry pickers. People pick one or two verses that they really hate and can't agree with and then push them on people like it's proof that God is a bad guy. Personally, it's a phase in your relationship with God, you're learning to trust Him, but you don't yet, because you don't understand him well enough yet.

There are so many ways to approach this :

1. God is our Father. We are his children. Does God want to kill his own children? No. He put us on Earth for a reason, to live and to learn, and so when God says to kill his own children, don't think that he takes it lightly.

2. Flesh life is not the end all be all of life. If you know of the three Earth ages, you know that we are now living in the Second Earth age, which starts in Genesis. But guess what? Genesis isn't the beginning of the story! There was a First Earth age before that where we all lived in our spiritual bodies. There are two bodies, the spiritual body, and the flesh body. When the flesh fails, the soul returns to its spiritual body in heaven, with Jesus, and all the other souls not currently in the flesh. Read about Lazarus and the Rich Man. No Neil, it's not a parable. Sometimes God actually gives you the literal interpretation. Not often mind you, because Jesus always spoke in parables, but that was because not everyone had eyes to see and ears to hear ie. understand the mysteries of heaven because it was not given to them.

3. In the First Earth age, Satan led a rebellion called the 'catabo' (sic) where 1/3 of God's children followed Satan and went against God. God now had the choice of killing one third of his children, or giving everyone another chance to make their own minds up about whether they would follow God or Satan. This is why we were made to live in the flesh.

4. The 'Apple' in the Garden of Eden was not an apple. It was the "fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" and symbolically, it represents Satan. When Satan tempted Eve first and then Adam second with the fruit, he convicted them of sin, because they had gone against God's wishes and eaten from the tree he told them not to eat from specifically out of all the rest. If you read the Greek, it says Eve was 'wholly seduced' - ie. Satan seduced her to poison her blood line and prevent the Messiah from being born. You know Cain and Able? Well Cain was the son of the devil, and Able was the son of Adam. Cain murdered his brother Able because he was jealous of his blessings. Christ said, "Ye are of your father the devil. A murderer he was from the beginning, and the works of your father ye shall do."

5. Satan comes first. Christ doesn't return until after Satan does, and all the vials of God's wrath are poured out. Then Heaven will be on Earth, we will all be in spiritual bodies, and the Lord's Day will commence, 1000 years of teaching with the devil locked away in the bottomless pit, so everyone gets a chance to repent and live.

There are just so many other things I wish I could go over with you guys, but I doubt many of you care.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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There are just so many other things I wish I could go over with you guys, but I doubt many of you care.

I care. I just don't think this is the audience. People who are Christian already believe what you do (unless you want to discuss specifics), and those that don't, don't want to discuss it.

Heck, if you'd want to discuss some finer points of Christianity, PM me or start a non-derailed thread on it and I'll join in. But general discussions, the second you post religion, it's pretty much going to fly off the rails. That's why most of us avoid it these days. Someone always gets really mad and it's never productive.

But for one point I'll immediately grant Christianity. I can't think of any other religion that's as adapted for modern civilization. Christians are told to integrate (by changing themselves) to fit into society, as opposed to bending society to fit their religion. So they're very passive and integrated into whatever society and culture and can change as cultural values change. The bible is a "living document" that changes as the needs change. It's pro-capitalism and pro-human-rights.

Hinduism "You suffer because you're supposed to from a past life pain." so there's no reward for trying harder. (And puritan work ethic is that taken to an absurd extreme where your only worth is your work output.) Buddhism is "desire is suffering, so to eliminate desire is the only way to not suffer". Which is kind of full of B.S. because that's like saying "Don't desire for your teeth to stop rotting away, instead of just going to the dentist."

And many people don't realize that Islam is an Abrahamic religion (ala like Judiasm and Christianity). However, it's ultra-ultra-ultra-conservative. Which is why I think it's hilarious that left-wing liberals hate US right-wing conservatives, but ally themselves with FAR MORE right-wing conservatives. If Rednecks were chopping off girls genitals, there would be no marches telling everyone to respect their culture. And where are all the aid missions to southern states full of rednecks? They're just as stubborn, conservative, and anti-science as many countries we send aid to.

I think that's all the religions ones, right? Scientology is pure lunacy and proof you can sell anything no matter how full-of-crap you are. Wiccans are the MySpace religion.

I also think it's really interesting that spirituality is a biological trait that's inherent in all humans. So secular people who claim to hate religion, do many of the same things as religious people they just don't call it religion. Plenty of people have spiritual experiences at concerts. Singing in a group together. And don't even get me started about Yoga... which is just religious meditating... for yuppie Atheists. And plenty of the modern liberal ideas regarding gender, illegal immigration, etc, have a striking resemblance to the "don't you dare question our dogma--there is no room for discussion" of 90's bible-thumping Christians. They're giving us the new "moral framework" for our lives. When the bad guys were shunned, they were "sinners," now they're "racists, sexists, and Nazis". But the purpose is still the same, shutting down debate and ostracizing "bad" members from the group and community.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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I care about what the Bible says, I just don't care to share it in here as I was foolish enough to do in the past. I hate debate, and it is pointless to voice my opinions when I already know what a few of you believe.

I will quote one Bible verse that is relevant to why I don't wish to voice my opinion (and trust me, it is taking all my willpower to resist)..

2 Timothy 2:23 (NIV)
Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.

Have a good one. :)

pkrcel
Member #14,001
February 2012

The bible is a "living document" that changes as the needs change.

Hey Chris, I'm impressed by this statement of yours, could you elaborate how'd you say that?

I'm a Roman Catholic "by education" (BUT: I haven't studied the bible I'm no Theologist) and in all honesty I can't see a way to agree.

It is unlikely that Google shares your distaste for capitalism. - Derezo
If one had the eternity of time, one would do things later. - Johan Halmén

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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In case any of you have lost your faith, this should clear it up:
https://www.emailsanta.com/Santa-Claus-FAQ/is-santa-real.asp

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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If Santa wasn't real, why would the multi-billion dollar NORAD system track him every year?

https://www.noradsanta.org/

Point? Santa. Checkmate Atheists!

pkrcel said:

Hey Chris, I'm impressed by this statement of yours, could you elaborate how'd you say that?

People keep re-interpreting it by projecting their culture, and their generation's needs and wants against it. Things that used to be important, like avoiding pig meat (because it'd make you sick) are completely ignored. While things that are still applicable ("love thy neighbor") stick around.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Living-Word.html

Quote:

Question: "What is the living Word? What does it mean that the Bible is the living Word of God?"

Answer: According to Hebrews 4:12, “the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” The “word of God” here is the written or spoken Word, not the Logos of John 1. The ESV says that the Bible is “living” and active.

[...]

The Bible is unlike other books, whatever emotional or social effects they may produce, in that it brings about lasting, supernatural change within a person.

For example, you hear a verse. You memorize that verse. Then, in some applicable life scenario, you'll remember that verse and it'll "speak to you" and give you guidance or comfort though that event. And each generation has their own unique trials and tribulations to go through, and they use their experiences as a lens into the document.

If you believe in the more Protestant side (not sure how many denominations, if all or only some / Catholics / etc), they say the "holy spirit" is what speaks to you and guides your interpretations when you read the Bible.

Best wishes, hope you're having a great day! :)

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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If you are a parent, you are God. God is the universal parent. And some other things. It' all about human psychology. The universe is not alive, it's just matter.

Imagine what it would be like if the Christan God was real. He would be Cartman and we would be his ant colony. What's so good about that?

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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It amuses me that people continue to assert the accuracy of the Bible and the existence of God and "Jesus Christ". We've already established time and time again that those beliefs are faith-based and cannot be verified. There is insufficient evidence for me to believe what you believe. This discussion makes you appear full-blown delusional, like that guy that walks alone downtown yelling to himself. :P

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Bam, can you honestly say that there is nothing you take on faith alone? If you were living in the dark ages would you put your faith in science? At that time they believed the Earth was the center of the solar system. Science isn't always right either.

There are plenty of things we don't have evidence for but that doesn't automatically make them false beliefs.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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@Edgar: You don't know philosopy. Don't you think it's interesting. And what about science, don't you think that's interesting? There is a whole world out there that you don't know about. And you can start learning about it right now. Watch the new Cosmos series. Or Human Universe with Brian Cox. Or something about philosophy or particle accelerators. This is not the middle ages, man.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I am not living in the dark ages. It doesn't really matter what I would have done then, and I don't think that I can even speculate what that would be.

Science isn't always right. It can't be. However, science is honest about what it knows for certain, and what is still a work in progress, and it improves over time. A collection of books written thousands of years ago for a mysteriously absent omnipotent being cannot improve.

Name something that we lack evidence for and I'll tell you if I blindly believe in that.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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You don't understand what science is. Basically, you think it is like alchemy. But it isn't. Science is the basis of computers, the Internet, satellites, and medicine. Alchemy only gives us some funny stories. It didn't work, because it wasn't true.

But please try to follow one of my suggestions. Curiosity only hurts cats ;D

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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torhu said:

Curiosity only hurts cats ;D

Not true. Science can actually be quite dangerous! Reading about it is quite safe. Experimenting with it requires adult supervision, safety precautions, and equipment!

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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Yes, but you don't know what science actually is . And science is perhaps the most important achievement of humanity. And philosophy is pretty important too. You are losing out on something here.

Art and music is about emotions. And science and (good, much of it is bad) philosophy is about knowledge and understanding.



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