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World Health Organization at it again
Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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Apparently I missed the WHO trying to classify gaming as an addiction/mental illness in the same grouping as alcoholism.

Open Letter against the proposal: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311981176_Scholars'_open_debate_paper_on_the_World_Health_Organization_ICD-11_Gaming_Disorder_proposal

They tried this back in 2008 and doctors quickly distanced themselves from it saying the research wasn't there to support it. If this passed we could see regulations like those imposed on cigarettes. We'd still be able to make video games as art, freedom of speech, and freedom of expression, but could possibly have gimped marketing power to get awareness out about the game.

If what I've heard about doctors saying there are more than two genders is true, then maybe we won't have a repeat of 2008 and instead see ideologue doctors backing this and helping it pass. After all, the US has Trump as President, so this passing wouldn't be so odd by comparison.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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If it were actually recognised as a real thing, actual medical help could be provided. As it is, in most places you get laughed at.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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They're looking for an excuse to heavily TAX games, just like they made up an excuse to come up with carbon tax and cigarettes, gasoline... you name it... pretty soon you will all just be slave labour with 100% of your paycheck being taxed away and big brother providing for you. The irony is, the people vote these clowns into office.

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Speaking as someone who cannot stand the smell of cigarettes and the noise, aggression and pollution from cars, and recognising the climate change worries we face, I find those taxes reasonable. A tax on games couldn't be justified that way.

Unless you class in-game trolling as noxious fumes of course (but then you need to tax much of the Internet, not just games).

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Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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If all games caused all people to become addicted, then maybe they would deserve a tax. To fund the rehab centres like drugs and alcohol need.

It's like hammers, they can be used to murder, but that isn't their primary use so they aren't treated like deadly weapons.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Some games I feel are actually designed to be addictive. Largely casual games on phones. I wouldn't be opposed to taxing those. ;) It annoys the crap out of me when my finacee plays those things. There's no challenge at all. No real gameplay. It's just click for points. But the sights and sounds are rewarding, and the dopamine is addictive... And of course they make money from in-app advertisements or microtransactions... Tax the shit out of that stuff all you want. I think that would be a positive change, as long as the law was very precise in its definition to avoid taxing any real games that aren't just dopamine traps.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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I think the concern is on the bigger implications. If this proposal passes, you will see game prices go up, but you will also see industry wide regulations, guidelines, and even the possibility of organizations formed with the power to regulate what games are released or how they are released.

I've also seen some refer to this passing as the Pandora's Box of the games industry. The concern is that it will cause re-evaluations of the "violent games create violent gamers" and "sexist gamer" studies, but instead of paying attention to the numbers of violent crimes decreasing as game popularity went up (like most studies have done), will rather focus on cases like the Columbine shootings or the Aurora Theater shootings to create regulations.

If it passed, it would result in an industry wide restructuring, not just a gamer inconvenience. I believe that is why so many people oppose it, due to the fear of what may happen due to the politically charged climate around gaming since 2014.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I'm certainly all for being against it and insisting on making decisions based on science and fact instead of dogma.

I wonder if we should all contribute to our own unregulated peer-based "Internet" that cannot be easily policed. Currently we're all vulnerable, but if we could manage to set up our own network it would be much more difficult for governments or corporations to tamper with the network.

Ariesnl
Member #2,902
November 2002
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What's next.. "You're on drugs when you watch television ?" ::)

- Wisdom is the art of using knowledge
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LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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If this passed we could see regulations like those imposed on cigarettes. We'd still be able to make video games as art, freedom of speech, and freedom of expression, but could possibly have gimped marketing power to get awareness out about the game.

No, that's just you fearmongering. There are restrictions on cigarettes, and alcohol, because they are addictive to the majority of the population, not just a small percentage of people with the "disorder."

The DSM covers addictions to many things that are not regulated.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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LennyLen said:

No, that's just you fearmongering. There are restrictions on cigarettes, and alcohol, because they are addictive to the majority of the population, not just a small percentage of people with the "disorder."

The DSM covers addictions to many things that are not regulated.

Except we aren't talking about the DSM, we are talking about the ICD which is heavily used when considering regulations on products and items that are viewed as being addicting.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
avatar

Except we aren't talking about the DSM, we are talking about the ICD which is heavily used when considering regulations on products and items that are viewed as being addicting.

The point is still the same. There is a recognized condition for people who are addicted to washing themselves. Do you see anyone trying to regulate the soap industry to protect the public? No. Why? Because soap is not generally addictive. Neither is gaming.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
avatar

LennyLen said:

The point is still the same. There is a recognized condition for people who are addicted to washing themselves. Do you see anyone trying to regulate the soap industry to protect the public? No. Why? Because soap is not generally addictive. Neither is gaming.

Yes, I forgot about all the studies since the 90s claiming to have false positives of soap creating murderers.

While gaming does have false positives studies saying games make murders. The same studies that congress use every time a school shooting and even the Aurora shooting happened.

Hillary Clinton wanted to put legislation in place regulating the industry, but never got off the ground after her legislation to fine game retailers failed to be passed.

In 2013, a psychotherapist, Dr. Russell Hyken, who deals with internet addiction talked about gaming addiction and walked the line by covering pros and cons, but the articles that referenced him only quoted him saying "Video games are actually designed to be addicting. The goal is to continually better your score which leads to obsession or addiction."
His full quote:

Quote:

Video games are actually designed to be addicting. The goal is to continually better your score which leads to obsession or addiction. The social aspect of multiple player games creates a sense of belonging to a community of other like-minded people. It can fill a void for loneliness but also create some positive self-esteem. This further enhances the appeal of the on-line, cyber world.
I don't think video games addiction is the same as other addictions although it does light up the same pleasure center of the brain that alcohol and drugs impact. The question is, 'How is this impacting an individual’s life?' A temporary obsession is not the same as one who engages with these games most of his waking hours and is avoiding school or work over a long period of time. In fact, there is not a defined time-line for how much one plays to be considered an addict. That said, when quality of life has been greatly impact, one most likely is an addict.
Unlike alcohol and drugs, which can be avoided in life, one must interact with technology.

We have 30 years of people trying to regulate the industry and the ICD will give them the leverage they need to implement restrictions. Some game critics have voiced their concern on this and even researchers in the first link voiced concern about the repercussions the inclusion of Gaming Disorder will have across the board, which was in the abstract.

Quote:

Concerns about problematic gaming behaviors deserve our full attention. However, we claim that it is far from clear that these problems can or should be attributed to a new disorder. The empirical basis for a Gaming Disorder proposal, such as in the new ICD-11, suffers from fundamental issues. Our main concerns are the low quality of the research base, the fact that the current operationalization leans too heavily on substance use and gambling criteria, and the lack of consensus on symptomatology and assessment of problematic gaming. The act of formalizing this disorder, even as a proposal, has negative medical, scientific, public-health, societal and human rights fallout that should be considered. Of particular concern are moral panics around the harm of video gaming. They might result in premature application of diagnosis in the medical community and the treatment of abundant false-positive cases, especially for children and adolescents. Secondly, research will be locked into a confirmatory approach, rather than an exploration of the boundaries of normal versus pathological. Thirdly, the healthy majority of gamers will be affected negatively. We expect that the premature inclusion of Gaming Disorder as a diagnosis in ICD-11 will cause significant stigma to the millions of children who play video games as part of a normal, healthy life. At this point, suggesting formal diagnoses and categories is premature: the ICD-11 proposal for Gaming Disorder should be removed to avoid a waste of public health resources as well as to avoid causing harm to healthy video gamers around the world.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

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