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raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

In 1909, a compromise was offered: a minimum wage, which was to be imposed equally on all races.

Something applied equally to all is not automatically racist, even if there are disparate outcomes. The additional racist behavior of employers in the past was a non systemic issue, but thankfully it's been rooted out by changes to the law. People deserve to be compensated based on merit, regardless of race or gender. That said, this article is more of an opinion piece than an objective history lesson.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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raynebc said:

LennyLen What are the publicly stated factors taken into account for diversion? Is the likelihood of recidivism a factor?

There's very little public information on the process, and what I did find out is that it's actually decided by the Police, not the court system as I previously thought.

Chance of recidivism might be a factor, though personally, I'd hope not as that would be giving people a harsher punishment based on something that hasn't happened yet, which is a very slippery slope.

raynebc said:

Something applied equally to all is not automatically racist, even if there are disparate outcomes.

The problem with laws that apply equally to everyone is that they only work if everyone was equal to begin with, which isn't the case in America, nor is it the case here in NZ.

I don't even know if true equality can exist in a society where one race is in the majority, though I'd like to hope it can. It's basic human nature to be distrustful of, and think negatively towards, those who are different from us. Because minorities are generally living in poverty, it's hard to see beyond the dirt and the crime and see a people who if circumstances were different would think and act the same way we do.

Personally, I think education is a big key to making a difference. I'd rather see more money spent on educating poor people than rich people, but in reality it's the other way around. In this regard, I think NZ is in a better situation than America (though, of course I'm only basing this on second-hand information).

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

If anyone is of the opinion that there is no systemic racism in America, they're either blind, stupid, or racist too.

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

LennyLen: All police need more transparency, and I think it would be fair for the police to have to publicly justify the outcome of each request for diversion in NZ. Anybody not of the far-left opinion that police should be outright abolished generally agree reform will improve them. There can't be equal outcomes for everybody because everybody is free to make their own choices, each of which can change their own chances for success or the chances of others.

Regarding education, throwing more money at education hasn't improved it in the US. Something else has to change. Parents probably need to involve themselves more with helping their kids learn, and this will be another area where single parent households will be at a disadvantage because there is less free time to do such things.

Union reform will probably help both policing and education, as it will be easier to actually get rid of the bad police and bad teachers.

Edgar: Of course you'll have a leftist opinion. That's your shtick.

MiquelFire
Member #3,110
January 2003
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If anyone is of the opinion that there is no systemic racism in America, they're either blind, stupid, or racist too.

---
Febreze (and other air fresheners actually) is just below perfumes/colognes, and that's just below dead skunks in terms of smells that offend my nose.
MiquelFire.red | +Me
If anyone is of the opinion that there is no systemic racism in America, they're either blind, stupid, or racist too. ~Edgar Reynaldo

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
avatar

If anyone is of the opinion that there is no systemic racism in America, they're either blind, stupid, or racist too.

I agree. And it works both ways.

“Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty. This is known as "bad luck.”

― Robert A. Heinlein

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

raynebc said:

Anybody not of the far-left opinion that police should be outright abolished generally agree reform will improve them.

Funny thing, not all left-leaning people believe the same things. It's not a fucking religion. It's a rough group of people whose ideals are similar in nature. In reality, I'm just left of center, but somehow I get clumped in with the extreme-left anyway. This is why I don't respect anyone throwing around left and right like it's some kind of argument. It's completely ignorant. If you can't even understand THAT then there's no hope you'll be able to have an intelligent discussion about actual issues.

People that are calling for police to be defunded are either stupid or being intentionally extreme in their communication without actually believing it. Albeit, with police forces buying surplus military equipment it could certainly be argued that those departments are over funded and should probably have cuts. We really just need to police the police better. The American people need to demand the supreme court rethink the police immunity laws, and probably should consider investigating how things got so wrong in the first place (corruption of the supreme court seems like a critical failing).

raynebc said:

There can't be equal outcomes for everybody because everybody is free to make their own choices, each of which can change their own chances for success or the chances of others.

We won't achieve perfect equality in terms of every single human being being exactly the same in every way, of course. However, if all people are truly free of discrimination, and given the same opportunities (meaning we assist those in poverty to help them get out), then on average all demographics should be fairing equally well or damn close to it. There should not be a people that is rife with violence and crime. If that ever happens we should try to solve it for the good of all of us. The money being wasted on law enforcement is probably more than enough to eliminate the poverty if people would just show some compassion!

raynebc said:

Regarding education, throwing more money at education hasn't improved it in the US. Something else has to change. Parents probably need to involve themselves more with helping their kids learn, and this will be another area where single parent households will be at a disadvantage because there is less free time to do such things.

You can't solve problems by just throwing money at them. Money is corrupt. The money will most likely not be allocated appropriately. We need to go further to ensure that the money goes where it is most needed.

raynebc said:

Union reform will probably help both policing and education, as it will be easier to actually get rid of the bad police and bad teachers.

Unions are not the problem. Unions are good for the people. Teachers need unions to get a fair shake. I don't know whether or not police do, but I suspect that they do. And sure, unions can be abused, but that's not reason enough to remove them. Certainly if police unions are currently using their weight to protect police from facing consequences that needs to be "reformed", but I don't think that means getting rid of the unions altogether.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

Defunding the police is not about disbanding the police. If you don't even understand that, then you're not intelligent or informed enough to discuss this.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

Defunding the police is not about disbanding the police.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/what-does-defund-police-really-mean/612904/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defund_the_police

Defund means to remove or block funding. Without funding police cannot operate. The phrase literally means to eliminate publicly funded police. As I said, there may be some people that are using it tongue-in-cheek to be Devil's advocates or something, or perhaps they meant cut funding and don't realize that "defund" is more absolute than that. We cannot be certain that every single sign maker intends the same message. There is no hive mind from which to share such a notion. They should choose language more carefully. Words matter, especially in politics.

While it's likely that few people are actually calling for the police to be disbanded, it's likely that some people are certainly saying that, and they can be forgiven for saying it too. They're justified in saying it. The police do more harm than good for them.

However, the rest of us believe that police services are necessary for a relatively peaceful life. While I would tend to agree that most crime is the result of social insecurity, and we can resolve much of it by helping people down on their luck get back up, there also exists people that choose to hurt other people without any justification and we need ways to try to limit the harm they can do. Police are meant to do that.

In Ontario, a big problem is that the courts are releasing everyone with a slap on the wrist, or giving repeat offenders bail. Inevitably, the same names appear over and over again on local news reports of people arrested for B&E/theft. They're stealing due to opioid addictions they can't support. It's inevitable they'll steal again until they receive enough help and choose to change their way of life. Or we just give them free opioids so they don't need to steal to acquire the funds for themselves. The good news is that police are getting fed up with it and finally speaking out to the courts. Hopefully they reach a constructive solution that benefits us all...

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

If it's because of racism that people loot and pillage their own neighbourhoods, then it must really be a problem ???

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

That's primarily because of poverty. Desperate people will do whatever they can to get by.

It doesn't help that the American culture is very much materialistic though. You care more about having things than how you got things, which makes crime inevitable. That's also why there is so much corruption at the top. The system doesn't take wealth away from people that don't deserve it. It takes a lifetime and luck to work your way to the top, but it only takes a few years of getting away with major crimes.

America boasts this fiction that if you work hard you'll succeed, but in reality you need to be really lucky. Lack of a conscience helps too. The story of America is nothing to brag about.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

It was proven multiple times that white supremacist groups infiltrated protests and looted and pillaged, against the wishes of the peaceful black protesters.

Trump declared Antifa a terrorist organization. They're against fascism, that's their name. Trump is against against fascism. Therefore Trump is FOR fascism.

Bob Keane
Member #7,342
June 2006

Trump declared Antifa a terrorist organization. They're against fascism, that's their name. Trump is against against fascism. Therefore Trump is FOR fascism.

The antifa movement advocates using any means possible to get their way, including violence, See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)

Trump is probably looking at their means and not the motive. His tirade versus the antifa movement is just another example of his half-truths.

By reading this sig, I, the reader, agree to render my soul to Bob Keane. I, the reader, understand this is a legally binding contract and freely render my soul.
If we get apple juice from squeezing apples, and we get prunes from drying out plums, where does prune juice come from?
Since gasoline contains ethanol, can self driving cars get duis?

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

"Trump declared Antifa a terrorist organization. They're against fascism, that's their name. Trump is against against fascism. Therefore Trump is FOR fascism."
That's particularly dumb, even for you Edgar. Commies were against the fascists, but that doesn't mean the commies were good.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

raynebc, I strive to have even some small sense of clarity when it comes to why you still support Trump.

  • 1) Children in cages

  • 2) Destruction of Indian burial grounds for a pointless billion dollar border wall that doesn't work

  • 3) Countless rollbacks of laws designed to keep us safe from pollution and protect our environment

  • 4) Selling the offices of our land to the highest campaign contributors.

  • 5) Threatening to use the military against peaceful protests.

  • 6) Militant police using violent force against non violent protesters.

  • 7) Egregious inflammation of race tensions

  • 8) The worst economy ever

  • 9) Over 100,000 dead from Covid 19 and the Trump administrations complete failure to act.

  • 10) Why do I need to go on?

Erin Maus
Member #7,537
July 2006
avatar

At least the Civil Rights act protects LGBT peeps.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/15/us/gay-transgender-workers-supreme-court.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Finally some good news. ;D Really surprised it was a 6-3 and not a 5-4...

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.
they / them / their

Bob Keane
Member #7,342
June 2006

Edgar,

4) Selling the offices of our land to the highest campaign contributors. Nothing new, GHW Bush sold FEMA to a man who bred horses. Remember what happened after hurricane Katrina?

8) The worst economy ever. In all fairness, Covid-19 had a lot to do with it. However, Trump was not prepared and has tried to push the country back to normal before the pandemic eased. Covered in your point 10.

And we both forgot to mention:

11) By ending the war on coal, he supports a source of energy which has only 25% of the US or world energy market, is the most expensive and has not declined in price due to the Covid-19 crisis or seasonal use.

I am not a Trump supporter. I believe he has given half truths and does not access the situation properly.

By reading this sig, I, the reader, agree to render my soul to Bob Keane. I, the reader, understand this is a legally binding contract and freely render my soul.
If we get apple juice from squeezing apples, and we get prunes from drying out plums, where does prune juice come from?
Since gasoline contains ethanol, can self driving cars get duis?

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

I think it's hilarious that all the anger over "conservative" judges and they just forget it when those very some "conservative" judges happen to vote in favor of the law. LGBT status is protected under the very spirit of the anti-discrimination laws so no !@$! they're going to rule in favor of it applying to transgender people. It's only surprising if you live in a bigoted caricature bubble where everyone is split into "us verses them" and "good vs evil."

"Why would an evil person vote for the thing I wanted?!?!?"

vs

"Why would someone who said they would vote to uphold whatever the law says, ... uphold what the law says?!?!?"

See how one version doesn't become dumbfounding when you don't reduce the otherside to caricatures?

) Children in cages

I love that so much. It's the perfect political line. It gets the left super riled up, it has a visual, sad image. It's perfect marketing. Too bad the left magically forgot about those kids in cages after about a month. That's the problem with EMOTION based voting, the emotions run out as they constantly seek the next high of injustice.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Erin Maus
Member #7,537
July 2006
avatar

Wow, I was surprised because even I thought the wording around sex was reasonably debatable. I figured Gorsuch would be in favor due to him being a literalist, so I assumed a 5-4 in favor of protections.

You people assume too much.

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.
they / them / their

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

Left and right isn't about emotion. We're not talking male and female here. It's not testosterone and estrogen/progesterone. It's about respecting all people versus only respecting people like you. The extreme-left take it way too far, but guess what? The extreme-right do too! The difference is the extreme-left try to get people fired or fined for using language they don't like; whereas the extreme-right wants to just kill or enslave anybody not enough like them!

Regardless of the details, extremes are bad. We should all be free to be ourselves, believe what we want, and express our beliefs freely. Our rights end where we infringe on another person's rights (or other protected animals). I think that most people agree with centrist ideas, except for extremists. Things generally get shaky when one person tries to assert their beliefs as law without any evidence to back them. We need to move our societies to be wholly science-based. I don't understand why any government is able to make decisions that aren't backed by consensus science, let alone decisions that contradict science.

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

Edgar You really don't care why I support Trump. Based on past discussions, I have no expectation that you would honestly consider any reasons I present and besides that, your list is generally just lies and things you didn't blame other politicians for (even Obama). It's not worth my time bickering with a petty leftist. And no, the meaning of the word "sex" in terms of it being a descriptor of people is not debatable. You're thinking of the corrupted term "gender."

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

raynebc said:

It's not worth my time bickering with a petty leftist.

I love how you reduce all my points to political leaning instead of merit.

I'm honestly interested in why you support Trump. It might give some insight into how he's managed to brainwash so many people.

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

Your ideas and arguments are indeed without merit from my standpoint, and they are consistent with far-left US politics as a general rule. I do not believe you care about conservative policy goals. Trump generally supports those goals, and has delivered in many ways, so of course I'll vote for him versus very left of center candidates. The DNC has brainwashed so many people to live in victimhood for so long they don't know anything else, and that's truly sad.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
avatar

"Children in cages"

Yes, let's just dump them into the deserts at the border because their parents were arrested for breaking the law. They'll find their way home somehow.

"Destruction of Indian burial grounds for a pointless billion dollar border wall that doesn't work"

Walls do work. The 2016 DNC put up walls, the clown circus known as CHAZ has "walls" sort of, and every penitentiary uses walls to keep murderers away from everyone else until the left orders them released because they might catch the wuflu.

"Countless rollbacks of laws designed to keep us safe from pollution and protect our environment"

Like that dam in Michigan that burst because they wouldn't follow engineers recommendations to not let an earthworks dam endure maximum load for months to save some sort of fish (which got washed away in the flood presumably).

"Selling the offices of our land to the highest campaign contributors."

First hit on google was a government office, second hit was this
https://www.politico.com/story/2011/06/obama-donors-net-government-jobs-056993

"Threatening to use the military against peaceful protests."

'Peaceful protests' consisting of arson, looting and killing cops, ;D. The leftist mayors and governors told the police to stand down and wouldn't let the national guard do its job either. I'd like to see these lefties when somebody's knocking down their door in the middle of the night to liberate them of their wide screen TV etc. and they call 911 and get the message "That number is not in service"

"Militant police using violent force against non violent protesters."

See above

"Egregious inflammation of race tensions"

It's the lefties that need racial tensions to get attention. They keep raising the "poverty line" every time the percentage of poverty stricken people with their AC, cars and smart phones gets too low so they can claim "Something has to be done!"

"The worst economy ever"

Yes, the Democratic lockdown is the worst thing to happen in a looong time. Remember the '16 election? The Dems and the mainstream media were all yelling how the stock market was going to crash if Trump got elected, instead it set records for rising once we got rid of "Those jobs aren't coming back" Obama.

"Over 100,000 dead from Covid 19 and the Trump administrations complete failure to act."

The majority of people know the numbers are vastly inflated, although apparently the death rates from heart attack and cancer have gone down because they all died of wuflu first.

And what would you like Trump to do? Give an executive order saying wuflu is illegal? After all, he really isn't a doctor, although the MSM keeps wildly exaggerating things like the guy that supposedly drank aquarium cleaner because the name was vaguely similar to the chloroquine that Trump mentioned, only to have it come out his looney leftie wife killed him.

“Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty. This is known as "bad luck.”

― Robert A. Heinlein

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

Fun fact: Women (AND GIRLS) crossing the border have to take birth control because... it's implied they're going to be raped by the smugglers.

And Democrats don't care. Because talking about women being raped would mean they have to 1) accept that some people in Mexico are scumbags. and 2) That illegal immigration is dangerous and increasing illegal immigration only increases the amount of rapes.

If Democrats were as "good" as you think, they'd push for fixing legal immigration and opening it up so all these people can come in legally instead of be murdered, and raped; and when they get here, turn into a below minimum wage slave class... where they're still raped.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/rape-in-the-fields/

Where are the protests? Where are the riots? Where is the support from liberals? Simple. No talking head at CNN, MSNBC, et al told you to care so you simply don't.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

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