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NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

This is a 60 minutes, Australia version that was a REAL eye opener! I won't give an opinion either way as it speaks for itself. But it looks like we are being lied to when it comes to recycling. Wow, I didn't know things were THIS bad! :o

Check it out...

video

--
Deluxe Pacman 1 & 2 (free) with source code available
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Doctor Cop
Member #16,833
April 2018
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This is Bad, but China and India actually recycle plastic. I have heard from those who have seen the process.

I also know that the USA majorly depended upon China to take their trash but since China has refused to take everybody's trash, the Australia, USA and some other Europian Countries have no option other than burning or dumping it. The amount of plastic waste is generated by America is overwhelming in comparison to the amount of land it can give to Dumping Grounds and same is for others too.

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

There could be some benefit to be gained by giving incentives to manufacturers of plastic goods if they take plastic waste and recycle it. Hefty helps run a plastic recycling program in my area, and will accept various plastic items (grocery bags, straws, single use plastic containers, etc) that our normal recycling service doesn't accept. Many grocery stores accept plastic grocery bags from recycling. Our area also collects compost material (suitable food waste, branches, leaves, grass clippings, etc). There's little reason this couldn't be done country-wide.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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NiteHackr said:

This is a 60 minutes, Australia version that was a REAL eye opener! I won't give an opinion either way as it speaks for itself. But it looks like we are being lied to when it comes to recycling. Wow, I didn't know things were THIS bad! :o

Interesting/horrifying video... Thanks for sharing.

In other news, while most Western companies are selling their recycling/garbage to third world countries black markets, Sweden is just ... burning it. And in fact, importing recycling materials to burn...

:o ??? >:(

The world is fucking insane. Every. Fucking. Government. Is. Lying. To. Our. Faces.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

I was discussing this with a friend online. He's a truck driver in Quebec and I was wondering if anything like this happens in Canada or the USA, I mean, in that video, while it was about Australia, they stated they were having a tough time finding a market for it anywhere in the world which means it would effect us as well.

My friend confirmed to me that recycled plastic is being dumped into landfill in Quebec as well.

Recycling only works if there is a market, and sadly, we were overly dependant on China to buy it all.

I have some of my own ideas on how to deal with this but I have to be honest, I don't see an easy solution. This is just one of those things I never really thought about, you just assume when you "do the right thing" and recycle, that it is being recycled, but here it is looking like it doesn't make a difference at all, it will most likely end up in a landfill anyhow.

Actually, I will state my own idea, and I will admit, it is NOT a solution, but maybe... something, I dunno... and that is incinerators which generate electricity by burning garbage, which could help with two problems, but I don't know how well you can burn plastics and there would probably be an outcry concerning pollution etc... so... <shrug>

We could reduce our use of plastic but plastic is not easily replaced. When i was young it was rubber, which came from rubber trees, but we could never produce that in the quantities needed and plastic just cannot be as easily replaced. Certain things could be, like bags. Go back to paper bags which I don't have a problem with, but again... you need to cut down more trees for that.

It's quite the hole our society has dug itself into.

iteHackr, perhaps you should try python - no semicolons xD

I was playing around with the GODOT game engine, which is quite nice and I believe the scripting language it uses is based on Python if I am not mistaken. I quite liked the language, and the engine itself.

--
Deluxe Pacman 1 & 2 (free) with source code available
https://nitehackr.github.io/games_index.html

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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NiteHackr said:

My friend confirmed to me that recycled plastic is being dumped into landfill in Quebec as well.

Not only that. "We" (meaning Canada in general) are very much shipping "waste", including recycling, overseas to black markets (i.e., criminal enterprises) in developing nations. The Philippines and Malaysia, for example. These nations don't have the resources to police it. These "smugglers" process what they can to produce plastic pellets for reuse, and the rest is just burned just as it would be in Canada, except instead of affecting Canadian pollution rates it is applied to the foreign nation. That's simply unfair and completely corrupt for our governments to allow to happen. It just goes to show you how fucking corrupt the system is. The regulations stop at the line for international waters. Once it leaves Canada we stop caring about what happens to it, which is a real shame. Private enterprises complete the circle of crime and pollution. Alas, much of this "recycled" material is never recycled, and instead gets burned or just fills up land in these developing nations, essentially polluting developing nations that lack resources to handle it with the waste of wealthy nations. It's sickening (literally and figuratively).

NiteHackr said:

I have some of my own ideas on how to deal with this but I have to be honest, I don't see an easy solution. This is just one of those things I never really thought about, you just assume when you "do the right thing" and recycle, that it is being recycled, but here it is looking like it doesn't make a difference at all, it will most likely end up in a landfill anyhow.

NiteHackr said:

We could reduce our use of plastic but plastic is not easily replaced. When i was young it was rubber, which came from rubber trees, but we could never produce that in the quantities needed and plastic just cannot be as easily replaced. Certain things could be, like bags. Go back to paper bags which I don't have a problem with, but again... you need to cut down more trees for that.

It's quite the hole our society has dug itself into.

Our society is becoming overly dependent on "convenience". We can do without a lot of this single-use plastic.

Plastic bags at retailers can just be replaced with reusable bags. You didn't come with bags to carry your shit out? The law says go fuck yourself. And certain stores would stock reusable bags, at a premium to ensure we reuse them. That would eliminate one mess.

Bottled water is bad for you. The plastic is bad, and the water is generally municipal source at a 100x markup or it's stolen from natural streams and things which are impacted from the extraction, and the corporations doing it don't "own" the streams. They merely own property alongside it. They have no more right to capture and charge a premium on it than any other cottage owner. In a similar vein, most plastic bottled beverages are bad for you, and the ones that aren't are expensive and less sought after so less of a problem, but we could just outlaw plastic bottles and require the industry to revert back to glass and use deposit based recycling programs to control it, or just outright stop convenient single-use beverage containers. Whatever is needed.

The worst plastic that I can think of is just packaging. Most of it is obnoxious. Like those plastic "cases" that most electronics and other similar items are wrapped in. The only way to "open" the packaging is to destroy it. Good luck returning that to the store. Typically larger corporations like Walmart take them back, but either the packaging is taped back together and looks unsaleable, or they must commission brand new single-use plastic to wrap it in. The government could outlaw that, and require different packaging methods. Granted, it will likely be far less protective and far more expensive, but we do have limited means here if we intend for our species to live indefinitely.

Most plastic seems to be a convenience more than a necessity. It's cheap, and it's unregulated, so it's used. Regulate it and prices will go up. Boo, hoo. The price is already going up, but we're just not seeing it yet. It's going to be a fucking shock when the bottom line is finally drawn and we see what all this convenience really cost us.

Of course, most of the conveniences are really poisons ultimately hurting us or the world around us anyway. It might be the best thing that ever happened to just draw a hard line and say no. We'll have to adjust back to an older way of life, but I think a lot of us will find more value from it in the long run, and it should help to ensure there's a valuable life to be had for our descendents too.

NiteHackr said:

Actually, I will state my own idea, and I will admit, it is NOT a solution, but maybe... something, I dunno... and that is incinerators which generate electricity by burning garbage, which could help with two problems, but I don't know how well you can burn plastics and there would probably be an outcry concerning pollution etc... so... <shrug>

After I watched your first video about Australia I sort of went on a binge trying to find other relevant videos about this. Not only did I find the evidence that Canada is doing the same thing, but I stumbled across the a video that documented Sweden's practices. Apparently/allegedly in Sweden, they have setup big incineration factories that literally burn garbage to produce energy. They are such an "innovator" at it that they actually also import garbage, including "recycling" materials, from other Western nations, to burn.

This sounds extremely alarming and wrong at face value. I don't know if an unbiased analysis has been done on the harm done to the environment as a result.

On the other hand, apparently some cities are setup with hot water systems used to heat homes in the city with the combustion of the garbage at the centralized plants... I think it's unlikely that the benefits outweigh the damage to the environment, but I haven't attempted to corroborate the practice at all (see Mozilla broke Firefox and is taking its precious time to fix it thread).

Again, this is another way in which the actual pollution output of some nations is swept under the rug and redistributed to other nations. Instead of the source country being held accountable for the pollutants released into the atmosphere as a result, it's redistributed back to Sweden. Which I can only assume either politically gives zero fucks or is a low enough contributor that they can afford to pay the price and still break even or thereabouts with embarrassingly wasteful nations like Canada and the US.

I think that's a practice that definitely needs to be addressed ASAP to both understand environmental damage properly, and to hold the worst offenders accountable. Despite Canada's relative size, apparently we're amonng the worst offenders, at least according to the available data. We might even be worse than the USA. Which is just embarrassing. I wouldn't be surprised if that was again just due to "loopholes" that skew the reality, but nevertheless Canada is obviously wasting way too much and some serious changes are needed.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

bamccaig said:

Plastic bags at retailers can just be replaced with reusable bags. You didn't come with bags to carry your shit out?

Good point, I agree. When I go shopping I take one of two things with me. Either my shopping cart when I plan to buy a lot, or just a single cloth bag (a really large one that holds a lot) for smaller trips so the only time I end up with a plastic bag is when I am out and didn't plan to be shopping at all, which is rare.

I just hate this huge mound of plastic bags building up in my home.

Another waste that REALLY bugs me, is FLYERS in my mail!!! I get a ton of it and it all goes straight from my mailbox into my recycling box which I find annoying. I told my wife when I bring in the junk mail, "another wasted tree". I am no tree hugger or even an environmentalist, but one doesn't have to be to see that it is senseless to be cutting down trees to make junk mail which only ends up in landfill polluting my environment when I could have a nice forest to walk through instead.

Quote:

Bottled water is bad for you.

I never buy the stuff. I have a couple pitchers in my fridge I refill with water, and some ice cubes in my freezer. I have a couple plastic bottles that I have been reusing for years now, I refill them with water so if I want bottled water, I take them out of the fridge, take it with me, refill it later on and put it back in the fridge (a couple of those gaterade bottles).

As for us being the worst offenders, actually, North America and Europe are some of the cleanest nations. Asian countries like China and the rest in that region produce the most pollution and garbage of anywhere in the world from some statistics I have seen. I find we tend to have a huge guilt complex in North America and think all the world's problem start with us when the data shows otherwise. Certainly Canada is not even close to being an offender. We have cleaned up what little we have polutted quite a bit. In Ontario we shut down several coal plants for example and much more. We're on target for levels we agreed to reduce actually. Especially in Ontario. It's a topic being debated in court now as Ontario doesn't feel we should have to pay a carbon tax when we are on target for our emission reductions according to international agreements. Other provinces I guess may not be, but Ontario is and this is something judges have raised in some videos of hearings i watched. But that's another topic.

Whether we should burn our garbage or not depends on whether you think global warming is real. Not really something I wish to go back and debate in here again! But I am bothered that such an idea can hamper positive sollutions to the garbage problem. Especially if it is not real. But... people have very fixed positions on that in here. And I don't see the issue going away anytime soon because of the fixed positions on both sides. We're in for some tough times in this world in the coming years.

Edit: We could also perhaps make more shopping bags from recycled plastic for plastic bags and paper for paper bags. Make it illegal to use anything else when it comes to shopping bags and the like anyhow. Could be SOMETHING to help I think.

--
Deluxe Pacman 1 & 2 (free) with source code available
https://nitehackr.github.io/games_index.html

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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NiteHackr said:

Another waste that REALLY bugs me, is FLYERS in my mail!!! I get a ton of it and it all goes straight from my mailbox into my recycling box which I find annoying. I told my wife when I bring in the junk mail, "another wasted tree". I am no tree hugger or even an environmentalist, but one doesn't have to be to see that it is senseless to be cutting down trees to make junk mail which only ends up in landfill polluting my environment when I could have a nice forest to walk through instead.

It's really sickening that it's permitted, but I suppose you have to balance the bad from the "good" (e.g., coupons that "save you money"). That said, it would make better sense to distribute those kinds of "save you money" coupons simply as "come in this day and get this deal"... Why only "special" customers get the deal? It's silly. In the end, all of those products are bad for us anyway so it would probably work fine to just completely outlaw such mail. A good way to combat it might be a small to large group of volunteers that save all of that spam mail, and then on a coordinated day everybody shows up within 5 minutes to dump it all over the post office. :P

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

I used to have a sticker on my mailbox which stated "NO JUNK MAIL", ie, no mail which is not addressed to me. I don't use junk, I never use coupons from them. And I ended up having a big problem with the postal service who told me that my mail box didn't belong to me. They even threatened not to deliver my mail. Eventually my sticker magically vanished from my mailbox and the problem persisted. A few times I went out and chased down the mailman and gave it back to them but... in the end it was just exasperating and I gave up. Nobody can say I didn't try.

--
Deluxe Pacman 1 & 2 (free) with source code available
https://nitehackr.github.io/games_index.html

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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That's completely fucked for them to say that your mailbox doesn't belong to you. It just goes to show that the system works us, not for us.

AMCerasoli
Member #11,955
May 2010
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Well here in Spain (Europe?) now we need to charge people for plastic bags, from a few months ago, and after 2020 or something they are going to be completely removed from Supermarkets and such... Or paper bags which are going to be much more expensive, or your own bag from home. At least it's something.

Rodolfo Lam
Member #16,045
August 2015

We are about to start something similar here in Panama. Starting July I believe, all non biodegradable plastic bags will be banned from stores nation-wide.

Supermarkets and to lesser extend smaller shops have started campaigns to make people use their own reusable bags. It has been somewhat successful.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Yeah, I am no environmentalist, but on this topic I do feel we overuse plastic. I use a cart (I don't drive, so I don't pollute that way either) and a cloth bag, have for many years now.

It just never made any sense to get a plastic bag which I used once and it ends up as trash.

This seems like a fairly reasonable thing to do to me, not difficult at all. You buy a cloth bag like, ONCE and it lasts forever. Plastic bags cost you at the store where I shop now, though not very much. Not that cost helps anything except the stores to be honest so I don't see charging for bags as a solution. I know the stores love the idea as they can appear environmental while recouping their costs for the bags which is money in their pockets.

We could also do like the beer industry has done here in Canada for decades and make the stores take their own bags back and recycle them themselves for reuse. Charge a deposit and you get it back.

--
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https://nitehackr.github.io/games_index.html

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

I never got into the habit of throwing plastic grocery bags away. I would collect them even into the hundreds and would use them slowly as wastebin liners, etc. When they began being collected for recycling, I offloaded most of them. Hefty's pilot program in a few cities (including mine) supposedly is converting such plastics into a synthetic diesel fuel.

I agree that reusable shopping bags are a good idea, but people need to be diligent about washing them as I've heard they become a food contamination hazard when neglected.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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We bought a bunch of reusable bags with intentions to use them, but what happened 9/10 is we'd already be out, decide to go shopping, and either the bags are in the other car or we'd forget about them until we were already in line at the checkout counter... Of course, if they completely got rid of plastic bags then we'd learn fast. ;)

We don't throw our plastic bags away. My parents always saved them, and so I always saved them too. They come in handy to have around anyway. My wife also takes them to the daycare she works at for wrapping up dirty diapers or something.

I generally get 2 uses out of plastic bags, but not much more. They're still a waste.

It blows my mind that governments allow things to get like this. Massive amounts of non-biodegradable garbage floating in the oceans,... And now also polluting third world countries... Seems we also need a plastic tax, the proceeds from which can be directed to help pay for clean-up crews in these environments.

raynebc said:

I agree that reusable shopping bags are a good idea, but people need to be diligent about washing them as I've heard they become a food contamination hazard when neglected.

It never even occurred to me that you should wash them... :-[

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

When I was a child in the 1970s you got your groceries in a paper bag. Worked like a charm.

It's difficult for some to imagine who have never known anything else, but it's really no big deal. Our chip bags back then were a combination of tinfoil with a paper lining and they were just fine. Your electronic housings were either metal or wood or a combination of the two. Our TV was a large wooden cabinet that looked quite nice. Our drinks were all in cans or glass bottles. Our cars were fricken tanks! Babies wore cloth diapers which were washed and reused.

There's something to be said about the older generation now that I think about it. I don't recall us throwing out a lot in the garbage to be honest.

I only ever needed to wash my cloth bag once when eggs broke in it. I don't have a lot of raw food just hanging out in the bag. If I did I would wash it.

--
Deluxe Pacman 1 & 2 (free) with source code available
https://nitehackr.github.io/games_index.html

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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I'm not as old as NiteHackr, but when I was young we were using consigned glass bottles, everywhere and for everything, as well as wood and paper. I miss these days where I was getting my milk in a reusable metal can.

"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
Allegro Wiki, full of examples and articles !!

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

I suppose this is progress at least:
https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/442683-scientists-say-theyve-invented-recyclable-plastic

If the existing plastic is too hard to recycle, make a better plastic.

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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And from what do we get plastic ?

"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
Allegro Wiki, full of examples and articles !!

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Our local grocery store recycles plastic bags. We just save them up then take back a bunch at a time. We have curbside recycling, but they don't take glass. Glass sucks.

The problem is the supply of plastic. It's just so damn cheap. More and more of it is biodegradable though, which is good, but still.

However, the majority of the waste generated even after recycling is still plastic. Wrappers, seals, packaging that isn't recyclable, etc...

We used to compost, but we don't have a vegetable garden anymore. I also used to collect the grass and leaves and compost them, but that's a lot of work.

However, there are literally islands of trash in the sea in places. They've invented some cool garbage collection pods though, can't remember the name now. They work 24/7 and just need to be emptied occassionally. Then there are things like giant sea vacuums that are like conveyor belts that just suck up the garbage.

Burning waste (plastic especially) produces toxic fumes. We (and other neighbors) used to suffer from not having garbage collection and so we burned our trash. Not only did it stink and pollute the air but I'm sure the plastic bags were not meant to be burned. We have since remedied the problem, and have curbside pickup now. It's so nice to be able to live in a neighborhood that doesn't smell like burning trash anymore.

I recycle as much as I can, but if my recycling is not actually being recycled, that's horrible. It should be a crime if you ask me, to dump materials meant to be recycled, or worse, to ship them somewhere else and burn them.

I shudder to think of all the mountains of electronic waste that gets shipped to places like India, where people get heavy metal poisoning trying to recycle the precious metals in the electronic parts. If my electronics aren't being recycled properly, that should be a crime as well.

Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
avatar

Happy Piccolo Day, everyone! :D

{"name":"Worship+him_4972b9_7080851.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/6\/b6181eec4ce3b187ef9ce3db8c326fd6.jpg","w":500,"h":376,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/6\/b6181eec4ce3b187ef9ce3db8c326fd6"}Worship+him_4972b9_7080851.jpg

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
avatar

YES! Happy Piccolo Day!

{"name":"LADESilverPlatedCPiccoloFluteWithCase-SKUspanitemprop184477-2-800x800.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/c\/4\/c4975d061b494830de17526a888a6487.jpg","w":800,"h":800,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/c\/4\/c4975d061b494830de17526a888a6487"}LADESilverPlatedCPiccoloFluteWithCase-SKUspanitemprop184477-2-800x800.jpg
:D

{"name":"612010","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/e\/3\/e3b21b43de789b133c8dca1af667c4d5.png","w":1200,"h":908,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/e\/3\/e3b21b43de789b133c8dca1af667c4d5"}612010

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

When it comes to electronics waste, I got that covered, it all seems to just stay in my computer room for 10+ years until I force myself, with tears in my eyes, to throw it away. :'(

--
Deluxe Pacman 1 & 2 (free) with source code available
https://nitehackr.github.io/games_index.html

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Heavy metals in the ground water? Huh? Lay off the crack Edgar.

--
Deluxe Pacman 1 & 2 (free) with source code available
https://nitehackr.github.io/games_index.html

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