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Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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I'm not transgender. I'm non-binary. I look feminine some days, masculine others. I honestly don't care what pronouns someone uses unless they're being malicious about it. I prefer they/them/their but only close friends and more... caring? people will respect that, I understand others won't and I don't really care.

raynebc, you're free to believe what you want. I'm not going to be polite when you're trolling me. You (probably) knew they can be singular but you just had to be an ass about it. You guys always antagonize me first and then expect me to be polite, it's hypocritical you know.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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I actually should apologize. raynebc probably worked hard for his money and earned every cent. So it's his right to be as 'greedy' with it as he deems fit.

Aaron, I think he was just being pedantic. Don't always jump to conclusions. It's not quite trolling if you're trolling just for trolling's sake. I think that was like a triple positive or something. Won't the universe blow up now?

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

I don't expect Aaron to be polite, but being so frequently hostile doesn't engender respect. If one is so quick to fly off the handle for the slightest of sarcastic jabs, one's skin is rather thin to be spending much time on the Internet these days.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

...understand others won't and I don't really care.

I don't believe that you actually want to discuss this topic here. We're going to play a simple little game. Below you will find two doors. The first one leads to a safe space. The second one leads to an open discussion. Choose a door.

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Do you honestly believe others should respect that?

If I say I prefer to be called "God" instead of any pronouns should you call me God?

Would you feel comfortable doing so?

What if I prefer to be called "RAPE!" instead? It must not be whispered or spoken, but screamed. At least, if you intend to respect my wishes. Is that OK?

What does any of it matter anyway? If you are confused about your gender why must the rest of us be? If you're dressed feminine enough to convince me that you're a woman then congratulations, I'll probably use female pronouns. If you look like a man in a dress I'm probably going to try to avoid contact because you'll look a little bit unstable to me, but if forced to interact I'll probably be using male pronouns by nature.

I don't understand what could be offensive about being called what you appear to be.

It's like dressing up like a police officer and getting offended when somebody calls you a cop or asks for your help. You might not actually be a cop, but if you look like a cop you can't blame people for mistaking you for one.

raynebc said:

...being so frequently hostile doesn't engender respect.

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Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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@bamccaig,

bamccaig said:

raynebc said:

...being so frequently hostile doesn't engender respect.

{"name":"44720e08b2fd712d689dcb5adbb1cc4b.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/4\/4\/44720e08b2fd712d689dcb5adbb1cc4b.jpg","w":1110,"h":778,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/4\/4\/44720e08b2fd712d689dcb5adbb1cc4b"}44720e08b2fd712d689dcb5adbb1cc4b.jpg

Clearly, that's a POTAyTO with a face. I can only assume you meant to call my mother a potato. I challenge you to a duel!

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002
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raynebc said:

Unless we're missing something, you're one person instead of multiple people.

Agreed, though it is often used when you don't know what gender the person is, I still don't feel it is an appropriate use of the word, and many object to a singular use according to Webster's.

I feel using "he" to refer to someone when you do not know their gender is perfectly fine until such a time as you do. it's only in our modern ultra-liberal, snowflake society that people blow a gasket over words or gender.

For example (and I am not trying to start a Bible debate here) in the bible, it uses "man" to refer to both genders. Many people do not know that. It will also use "he" when being general about a commandment for example when it obviously applies to everyone. And I don't see a problem with that.

I really don't see a problem with "they" when gender is unknown, it feels like slang to me, but most will understand what you are saying which is, in the end, what is important. But I have to wonder why someone would jump through hoops to change their name in order that people wouldn't know their gender, seems a tad silly to me, but to each his own.

Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
avatar

Alternative solution: just drop pronouns (aside from personal pronouns) altogether and instead use names alone. For example, Japanese already does this to a large extent (but it gets away with it due to some language specific stuff that really doesn't translate well into English). It would get pretty ridiculous though. :P

I saw Megan today. She was out walking her dog. I waved to her, but she didn't see me.

I saw Megan today. Megan was out walking Megan's dog. I waved to Megan, but Megan didn't see me.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

I suppose the advantage would be it's less ambiguous. But it's also longer and more repetition. It would be better for machines, but worse for humans. And we're humans.

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

NiteHackr said:

I feel using "he" to refer to someone when you do not know their gender is perfectly fine until such a time as you do.

Don't you know defaulting to a male pronoun is patriarchal abuse? </sarcasm>

Edit: I also tend to use "guys" as a gender-less term when addressing friends, but at work I use the term "folks" lest I melt any snowflakes.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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NiteHackr said:

Agreed, though it is often used when you don't know what gender the person

It's actually a fundamental problem with the post-modernists / new progressives worldview.

You don't know what pronouns to use before you talk to someone. So it's literally impossible to act in a way that won't offend SOMEONE.

And as we know, causing offense is a micro-aggression and capable of systematic oppression that keeps victim groups from succeeding. (You think I'm joking or making a point yet. I'm not.)

So their "solution" is to ASK SOMEONE THEIR PRONOUNS. That's right. The VERY FIRST THING you say to a new person is... essentially... "Who do you like to have sex with?" . One of the most personal things you could possibly ask someone.

And that's another thing. Okay, you can "feel" feminine or masculine one day or the next. Fine. I accept that. Except the SAME progressives have been telling us for YEARS that gender is a SPECTRUM so that EVERYONE has masculine and feminine qualities (remember! "There's no biological basis for gender!" ;D). So now you're "REINFORCING gender stereotypes" by assuming females act in a way that's "feminine"--otherwise how could you act non-binary (not adhering to the two "real" genders) if the two genders don't even exist!

Oh god, my head hurts.

And again, Aaron, do whatever you want, feel whatever you want. I earnestly hope you live a happy, successful life. But when I see stuff that doesn't make sense, I'm going to talk about it. But if you're going to proudly be a communist, or non-binary, or any other label, you can't really get pissed when people poke fun at it. Any more than Christians have to take a joke about believing in a guy who can walk on water coming down from Heaven and saving us from a mortal sin that their God gave us in the first place.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

MiquelFire
Member #3,110
January 2003
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Found out about this site today: https://monday.com/

I wonder if whoever made that (or at least chose the current name) was here or another programming forum in which Monday projects was a thing?

---
Febreze (and other air fresheners actually) is just below perfumes/colognes, and that's just below dead skunks in terms of smells that offend my nose.
MiquelFire.red | +Me
Windows 8 is a toned, stylish, polished professional athlete. But it’s wearing clown makeup, and that creates a serious image problem. ~PCWorld Article

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

This one genuinely makes me happy.

http://dogeweather.com/

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002
avatar

So their "solution" is to ASK SOMEONE THEIR PRONOUNS.

Not going to happen with me. If you're a male, you get called "he" and "him" from me, if you're a female, you get called "she" and "her".

To state otherwise is to go along with a lie, which I will not do. I won't lie for anyone, for any reason. I purposely vowed to stop all forms of lying back in 1998 and haven't since, as hard as that is to believe. Never been much of a liar to start but, for personal reasons, I will not, for anyone. I had one friend who wanted me to lie to his wife about some beer he bought, to say it was mine that I bought it, I refused to lie for him, but simply didn't say anything, but knew she would figure it out when I left their place without the beer. :)

Canada has laws that are trying to force me to call people what they wish, I will not. I will take jailtime before I lie. If you're a male who thinks you're a female, you need to seek a mental health professional.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
avatar

NiteHackr said:

Not going to happen with me. If you're a male, you get called "he" and "him" from me, if you're a female, you get called "she" and "her".

To state otherwise is to go along with a lie, which I will not do. I won't lie for anyone, for any reason. I purposely vowed to stop all forms of lying back in 1998 and haven't since, as hard as that is to believe. Never been much of a liar to start but, for personal reasons, I will not, for anyone.

Like most people who post on the internet I feel obligated to chime in here.

NiteHackr, sometimes your closed-mindedness amazes me.

First of all, 'sex' aka physical gender in this case is determined by many things. First by your chromosomes, whether you're XY (male) or XX (female). That is determined by the father's contribution, either X or Y. The mother can only donate an X chromosome, so that has no bearing on the sex of the child.

Physical gender is also determined by hormones. Both those inside the body, and in the case of a child in a mother's womb, her own hormones. It has been shown that children in the womb are affected by the mother's hormones. It can influence the sexual and mental development of the child.

Pesticide has been shown to cause male frogs to turn into females. It raises their estrogen levels until they develop into fully functional female frogs.

What about hermaphrodites? What pronoun do you use for them?

And that, that's just biology.

There's more to it though, namely psychology comes into play. People have in their own mind a gender image that may not conform with their physical reality. They may identify more closely with the opposite sex. They may not physically desire the opposite sex. It's not so cut and dry as M/F anymore.

So there's the mental aspect of it too.

I personally know someone who was born male and is in the process of 'becoming' female. Let's say their name used to be Gaylord (no pun intended). They now wish to be called Gabrielle. They also wish for persons to refer to them as she/her. They have been taking hormones I'm sure and 'she' has developed breasts. They also wear somewhat feminine clothing markers. Would it be a lie to call her 'her'? Personally, I think the whole thing is a tragic fuck up of nature, and that you should be comfortable being what you were born as. But that doesn't respect her wishes. Her psychology is female, her physical gender is female, and she wants to be called by a female name using female pronouns. At this point, it's no longer a lie to say she is physically and mentally female.

So NiteHackr, you may want to rethink your narrow point of view. I'm not asking you to lie, but to acknowledge that other people have different points of view, and we should do our best to respect them.

Now you can go and say that they're physically or mentally ill, but it's not really a disease. It's a biological and mental state of mind that simply differs from the norm.

Try to have a little more understanding, and don't be so completely deluded that you continue to think you're right about everything.

My 2¢

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002
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NiteHackr, sometimes your closed-mindedness amazes me.

Closed minded because I won't call a man a woman? You're absolutely right! My mind is closed to lies and deceptions and locked shut.

If you want to believe a lie, that's your business, but don't expect me to join in with the stupidity.

video

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

At this point, it's no longer a lie to say she is physically and mentally female.

That's a pretty bold statement. I cannot definitively refute it without evidence either way, but I can say that there are some aspects to your body's development that cannot be easily reversed.

I am very amused by a debate on the subject of transsexuality featuring "Ben Shapiro" and a random, allegedly ex-military, transsexual:

video

If you watch the video around half way through Ben Shapiro basically just says the fact is this person is still a dude. And the guy looks at him and says if you don't cut that out you'll be going home in an ambulance. And it's the most self-defeating moment in the world because it's clear in that moment I think to anybody that it's a man talking, not a woman. A woman would never speak to a man like that so seriously. Not because of some patriarchy BS, but because a woman is simply more weak and fragile by nature (there are freak exceptions, but their biology is atypical), and if it was actually a woman instead of a physical man taking female hormones (if even) they simply wouldn't be built to make that threat. That person is obviously very confused if they believe that's how a woman reacts to those situations. Instead, it was a very male response. A threat of physical violence (with full intent on backing it up without hiding behind other men).

Hormones definitely play a large role in human behavior. I've seen first hand the dramatic changes in personality that changes in hormone levels can have. However, there's no way to convert a male body into a female body. They develop differently. Unless the biology is fucked up from the start the physical body will develop one way, and some aspects of it cannot be reversed. You can play some subtle tricks. Pump a man full of estrogen and he might start to develop breasts. But he'll still have broader shoulders, thicker bones, and a narrow pelvis; at least without plastic surgery to artificially change it. Ultimately, the frame is male, even if the brain is some unpredictable mix, and perhaps you've gotten some kind of breast development going. I'm unconvinced that 20 years of developing as a man can be undermined with a shortage of testosterone or a constant dose of estrogen either. You certainly can change behavior in major ways, but I don't think the end result is 100% feminine. It's some bastardization which will vary case by case.

There's a known transsexual that I've encountered in life. It's female to male. They actually do a pretty good job of pulling it off. If it wasn't for being told I might not have realized it was a transsexual. I definitely would have realized that they were more feminine than most males, but then I can be mildly feminine at times too.
And that happens. So I might not have even figured it out. Nice enough person from the odd encounter. But it gets juicier. This person is married to a woman. Real as far as I can tell, but probably on the LGBTQ+ spectrum. Probably gay/queer anyway. And obviously tolerant of transsexuals. In any case, from a previous relationship (obviously) this woman has a daughter. She's about 20 years old now. And the grape vine says that the transsexual has physically assaulted the daughter on several occasions. Now, it's hearsay to me so I can't really take a stance on it. Sometimes women drive you crazy, and push your buttons, and he-said she-said is always a gray area. And yet, you can just imagine the havoc that would be caused pumping a female body and brain full of testosterone.

Plenty of men (I certainly have had my moments) have trouble controlling themselves from their hormones (and visa-versa for women and their hormones, x1000). It's not entirely surprising to learn of a transsexual man losing control in the odd moment, but the implication is far more than just yelling, and actual physical assault. Apparently the mom does nothing. Typical. Though again, hearsay, so maybe it's just a vengeful teen lashing out at her fucked up parental situation. In other words, I try not to judge with what little information I have. That said, it does give you more to think about with regards to just how unstable these things can be. It's not like a switch that you can flip to change sides. Biology doesn't work that way.

I would think it's easier to change your mind than it is to change your body, but I don't think we're at a point where the science takes a side yet. If anything, if your mind thinks one thing and your body another thing, then I'd imagine you either had a fucked up childhood that left you confused, or your brain chemistry is atypical/fucked, or you're inventing creative/extreme solutions to other common problems that many of us face. That's OK to be different. We all have our issues. No need to feel so left out. But I think that going the transsexual or even "nonbinary" route should be a last resort because it's very easy to get confused, and if you don't need to be confused then it's not worth being confused. The evidence shows that the consequences can be serious.

I'm thankful to have grown up before this wave of SJW's started to gain a voice. I cannot imagine growing up in this day and age. I was not your typical manly-man jock type. Obviously. Like many of you probably, I was a geek. I liked playing video games or using computers, I was introverted and shy. With the wrong mentorship you might have been able to convince a young me that I was "transsexual" or "nonbinary". I'm quite confident that I'm not, and thankful that I didn't have people trying to demonize cis-gendered, white people; or glorify homosexuality, transsexuality, or "nonbinary" designations. I believe wholeheartedly in homosexuality, and no matter where you land on the whole LGBTQ+ spectrum have at her as long as you aren't hurting anyone else. But I don't think it's appropriate to champion that way of life. Most people will simply be more happy being "normal". There's no need to recruit. The people that need it will find it out of necessity. And you shouldn't wish that lifestyle on anyone that doesn't want or need to have it. Things are pretty stable these days in my 30's. Your teenage years and early 20s are just chaos with hormones though. Sometimes I'm still amazed I made it through it. I don't think people should be making decisions like this until they approach their 30's, at least. In my experience, that's when the brain chemistry starts to stabilize and hopefully your mind matures and you can make such a decision a bit more seriously. 18 or 22 definitely too young to know. 12 or 8? Get the fuck away from those children with your crazy talk.

I do think that over time hormone treatments and lifestyle changes could somewhat transform a man into a woman. Hell, some gay men are so feminine they might as well be women, even though they're very much still men. Behavior can be altered. There are still limitations with the physical structure, but those can be worked around. But I don't think it's right to consider a transsexual the same as a male or female. We have a different word for a reason. It's different. It's more complicated. And that's that.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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NiteHackr said:

You're absolutely right! My mind is closed to lies and deceptions and locked shut.

Okay smartie, so answer my question. How do you refer to a hermaphrodite? They're neither Male nor Female, but both. If everyone is either one or the other, as if you could tell without taking off their clothes with 100% certainty, then how should they be referred to? Which one are they? Do they get to choose? How is that any different from someone else choosing to be referred to as the other gender. It's no different.

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

If a person's biological sex is already known, it's fully reasonable to use the corresponding pronouns. If a person's sex is not already known, but they overwhelmingly seem to be a male or a female, it's reasonable to use the corresponding pronouns. If a person is known to be trans, an interacting person can honor the requested pronouns as a courtesy, but requiring such courtesies by threat of law is immoral and violates the principles of free speech. People who are truly hermaphrodites have the most biological justification for deciding which gender to be, since genitals are one of if not the single most classic criteria for determining gender.

Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
avatar

Now you can go and say that they're physically or mentally ill, but it's not really a disease. It's a biological and mental state of mind that simply differs from the norm.

Where does one draw the line between being mentally different versus being mentally ill? I think we can all agree that schizophrenia is a mental illness, for example, but would you say that schizophrenia is just a "mental state of mind that simply differs from the norm"? Also: how does one define mental illness versus mental disorder. Wouldn't a disorder be anything that goes against the norm? In this case, wouldn't being transgender be a mental disorder/illness? I'm just curious how you separate the two.

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
avatar

There's already a definition for mental illness: when a mental difference causes distress or disability.

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness, the solution is hormones and/or gender reassignment surgery. AFAIK you can be transgender without suffering dysphoria (i.e., you're happy fitting in the role you want without changing your physical appearance) it's just rare or less common, hence it's not a mental illness.

A person with hallucinations and delusions is not necessarily schizophrenic if it doesn't impair them or cause distress. For example, in non-Western cultures, people with positive, helpful, positive, or non-significant hallucinations and delusions are much more common than those with negative, distressing ones, and thus while they may have schizophrenia, it's not really a mental illness. However, in my case, my delusions and hallucinations cause me distress and impair my ability to function, hence why it's a mental illness.

This is per the APA per the mental health professionals that have helped me get better.

And again, Aaron, do whatever you want, feel whatever you want. I earnestly hope you live a happy, successful life.

I appreciate that, but I already am living a happy (and I'd say successful) life. My mental health has greatly improved in the last years thanks to the dedicated work of my therapists and doctors; I'm on my third semester at school; I have a job in software development; I have a car and some financial security; etc. If everything keeps up I'll graduate and nab a mid-level software dev position in the Research Triangle right out of college...

re: gender roles, 1) I don't believe gender roles don't exist, they're just functions of society not biology 2) I do believe stereotypes about stepping out of gender roles are bad; you don't have to be female or gay or metrosexual (whatever that means) to enjoy cooking and cleaning and hygiene and fashion or whatever and vice versa for traditionally male activities 3) It makes me happy presenting as female or male or inbetween as I see fit. It's a sort of freedom that can't be described.

raynebc said:

genitals are one of if not the single most classic criteria for determining gender.

gender != sex; // xxx: except in casual parlance

Gender is the social (i.e., changing over time and between cultures) aspects of roles generally associated with a specific sex. For example, the color pink being feminine is a social thing because it changed and thus is gender related not sex: https://www.npr.org/2014/04/01/297159948/girls-are-taught-to-think-pink-but-that-wasnt-always-so

Languages have grammatical genders for objects, for example; and the genders are different between languages. Furthermore, some cultures are matriarchal, some cultures have more than two genders, and so on. So gender isn't some fixed idea like sex is.

In academic circles this usage (gender -> social, sex -> biological) predates the modern social movements by decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#Etymology_and_usage

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002
avatar

Okay smartie, so answer my question. How do you refer to a hermaphrodite?

"smartie"? Can't respond without being rude?

Anyhow, if you were to test a hermaphrodite, you would find they are either male or female, just that they have some of the other gender's parts.

What most people do not understand is that we are ALL born with BOTH parts in the womb, but as we develop, the male or female parts develop and the rest go away. Obviously with hermaphrodites this doesn't happen properly, but that doesn't mean they are not either male or female still. Just that they have some parts from the other gender that weren't properly absorbed at birth. This wouldn't apply to breasts and the like, but only the reproductive organs.

There is no in between. If tested, you will find they ARE one or the other, only with some parts from the opposite as we ALL have in the womb, but just didn't go away.

A male that is dressing, acting like a female that maybe had some silicon implants shoved under their chest to appear like breasts (REAL breasts can produce milk to feed a baby) and had their penis removed and surgery to make what appears to be a vagina, but in fact is just their skin cut open and formed to appear like a vagina, it does not function as a real one, and they cannot bear a child.... such a male, is still a male. They have been surgically altered to appear as a female, but it is all just an elaborate deception.

Most of the time I can tell them apart, especially if they start talking. In any event, even if I cannot, surgically altering your skin and shoving a sack of silicone under your chest does not make you a female. It makes you a man with a mental illness that needs to be treated.

These are the facts. I await more insults for my opinion.

raynebc said:

If a person's biological sex is already known, it's fully reasonable to use the corresponding pronouns. If a person's sex is not already known, but they overwhelmingly seem to be a male or a female, it's reasonable to use the corresponding pronouns. If a person is known to be trans, an interacting person can honor the requested pronouns as a courtesy, but requiring such courtesies by threat of law is immoral and violates the principles of free speech. People who are truly hermaphrodites have the most biological justification for deciding which gender to be, since genitals are one of if not the single most classic criteria for determining gender.

Perfectly stated. I 100% agree.

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

Gender is the social (i.e., changing over time and between cultures) aspects of roles generally associated with a specific sex. For example, the color pink being feminine is a social thing because it changed and thus is gender related not sex.

A friend who studied psychology told me that experiments with primates had shown that females preferred playing with dolls while males preferred playing with cars. I cannot remember exactly if the same applied for colors (pink), but I tend to think so.

Anyway, I we hereby declare that I we want to be referred to exclusively by using the expression "their majesties". If you do not do it, you exhibit hurtful and offensive behavior.

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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NiteHackr said:

It makes you a man with a mental illness that needs to be treated.

They do receive treatment. Oftentimes it's gender reassignment surgery or hormone therapy. I don't want to use the appeal to authority fallacy but do you think you're better versed at treating this than the APA..?

...

(Not aimed at Neil):

Some of these points are a good read: https://www.apa.org/practice/guidelines/transgender.pdf

If nothing else read guideline 1 (pg. 4-5 on the PDF)... A lot of it is pointless for you or me but it shines light on what psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, and health care professionals practice.

Polybios said:

A friend who studied psychology told me that experiments with primates had shown that females preferred playing with dolls while males preferred playing with cars. I cannot remember exactly if the same applied for colors (pink), but I tend to think so.

If colors were associated with sex, then why did pink only recently become associated with women exclusively?

I'm not saying there's no differences in behavior between sexes and this usually correlates to gender roles, but what are social constructs and what are biological functions isn't something you can say with any reasonable certainty currently, if ever.

Anecdotally and kind of cliche, but I literally played with Barbies when I was younger frequently. Not as much as LEGO or other "boy toys" (that sounds dirty ;D), but often enough that I had family discourage me. (Said family also stopped watching the NBC 'Brave New World' TV movie where one of the male characters [iirc it was Leonard Nimoy's] wore a skirt, well).

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

Gender and sex being different is a relatively modern concept in gender theory. Even if I were to agree to that, of which I am skeptical, it doesn't change the meaning of objective words like man and woman. "Male" and "female" could arguably be subjective terms, but "man" and "woman" are based on biology. Many gender stereotypes are surely socially taught, such as pink being feminine whereas in the past it was as (manly) as other colors. Other stereotypes, such as men generally preferring to work more with things and women generally preferring to work more with people are based on biological tendencies. Those tendencies are largely/mostly the reason for the disparity in the career choices men and women make and thus the disparity in pay (ie. the "gender pay gap").

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

NiteHackr said:

...the male or female parts develop and the rest go away. Obviously with hermaphrodites this doesn't happen properly, but that doesn't mean they are not either male or female still. Just that they have some parts from the other gender that weren't properly absorbed at birth.

video

My understanding is that the male and female genitalia basically develop from the same biological material/framework, but normally chromosomes and hormones drive what ultimately develops. Basically, hormones determine if you develop a normal penis or a vagina, or something in between. Even if the gametes that originally met have well defined chromosomes, you can fuck with the process somewhat (assuming you had the technical know-how). To say that we all develop with BOTH and eventually one of them disappears just sounds super ignorant. I don't know where you got this idea from, but I definitely want sources for that. It runs completely contrary to everything else I've ever heard or read, not to mention to logic. Why the fuck would the human body spend extra time developing parts that it will ultimately throw away? Particularly if you believe in a supreme omnipotent God/creator. ::)

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Polybios said:

I cannot remember exactly if the same applied for colors (pink), but I tend to think so.

Actually until like the 1930s or so pink was considered a masculine color, and I think maybe blue was feminine? I'm less certain about blue. But either way, pink eventually was reassigned. That much is entirely socially defined. Which makes sense. Pink isn't very common in our natural environment anyway. It was probably reassigned to women because they're more vain and since pink is so "loud" it makes it easier to attract them for commerce. Prior to women having spending power, let alone the majority of spending power, there would have been no reason for pink to be assigned to them.

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