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The Curse of the Programmer
bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Great :) Unfortunately, since you started a sentence with that totally backhanded comment, the feeling is no longer mutual ;)

I think that he actually made very valid points. He took the time to try to show you that he didn't mean you disrespect and you chose to take disrespect and be disrespectful in return. You've basically proven that going out of your way to cater to somebody does you no good. People are dicks just because you disagree with them. People with good ideas argue the points. People with bad ideas insult you or claim that you're being insulting.

Aside from that, the stuff I asked you to do (which you think isn't your responsibility) is stuff that many of us just do because it helps us and others get along. I only suggested it because I'm trying to find ways to stop you getting attacked for your posts like in this thread. If you can't get anything useful from it, I only have so much time and will have to leave it, sorry :-/ (Will just say that people can at least sense it when you show some effort to understand them instead of just talking about your own views - you don't have to be right about what others are thinking, just show you're trying.)

I always try to understand what other people are saying. This is a very meta thread in the sense that people aren't arguing about something in this thread with me. They're arguing about something they claim that I did or said in the past. And I don't agree with their claims of what I said at all. They obviously didn't understand me or are just closed minded and prejudiced. Again, if they really wanted to discuss the topic they would do so in context. They attack me out of context because I can't defend myself. I don't even know what they're responding to. And frankly it's not even worth it to fight them because I know they don't fight fair. I believe that anybody worthy of my respect will be able to see that.

They can go ahead and spread their lies. I know what I said, and everybody that participated saw it happen and hopefully formed their own ideas. If you would like to debate the topic again go ahead and start a thread. Or next time that I do I'll see you then. I think that Thomas is casting himself in a very poor light in this thread. And honestly I usually have a lot of respect for him so it's quite disappointing, but he seems to be regressing further and further into this closed minded censor.

Oh and what exactly do you mean by dark comedy? Is it the same as black humour? Because I love that stuff. Jokes inspired by recent tragedies for example (with care to make sure you have the right audience for those jokes, of course). Sorry we can't agree on this one.

Oh, example: my mum felt sad on Mother's Day because it was her first one without her mum. I sent her something like, "I want to die like my grandfather, peacefully in my sleep. Not screaming like the passengers in his car." The joke did actually help her.

Yes, I meant "black humour". In my experience, you have trouble with it, but of course there are different styles and contexts. Perhaps it is the "American" humour that you don't get and you do just fine with black humour (I believe you do). Or I could be talking out of my ass. :) Mostly this is IRC PMs that I'm recollecting. It's entirely possible that I'm not remembering things perfectly. Of course, I take it that you do try to appease everyone, and to some extent I think that requires getting serious about jokes when some people don't get them. I digress. I believe you can take dark humour. In hindsight, I might vaguely recall sharing some with you that we both enjoyed so I don't know...

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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bamccaig said:

They obviously didn't understand me or are just closed minded and prejudiced.

Really? More like you don't understand yourself and how you are perceived, and how your abrasiveness and argumentative attitude are causing problems with other forum members.

It's not like Thomas to complain hardly at all, and the fact that he is now should show you your behaviour is seriously problematic.

People think you're harmless, but you're not.

This is just one quote of many more like it over the years.
Source : Your new favorite programmer

bamccaig said:

You're welcome to wear whatever you want, but it WILL have an effect on how people interact with you, especially guys. Also, do NOT complain when males of any age take an open opportunity to look up a woman's skirt. You're the one wearing an open door instead of a wall. Would you undress in a room with an open door and not expect passing guys to peek in? Not if you had any sense. It's really just a fact of life, IMO.

As Ron White [wikipedia.org] said, "...Once you've seen one woman naked, you wanna see the rest of 'em naked." Essentially don't complain about men objectifying you if you dress like you want them to.

IMO, if a female wants to be respected in a male dominated industry then she shouldn't draw unnecessary attention to her gender. Firstly, it screams I don't quite fit in and, secondly, it distracts men from what matters (and by that I mean your abilities applicable to the industry). Of course, it's also important to strive to be successful in the industry as any successful male would do.

Emphasis mine.

So according to bamccaig it's okay to look up women's skirts and it's not okay for them to dress femininely or attractively if they want to be respected because that would distract men from doing their jobs (which are far more important anyway ::)).

Why don't we all just embrace Islam and make women cover their entire bodies? That way men won't be tempted anymore. ::)

SaraJo said:

I was homeschooled through most of my youth, but when I went to regular school my parents sent me to religious school. Once I was in a bible class and the teacher said something in the vain of "If a girl is wearing a bikini and she gets raped it is her fault." Even now thinking about that i want to punch that ignorant F in the face.

...

SaraJo said:

I'm not reading that thread.
(That thread)

Because if I read that thread and gut you with a steak knife and wrap my Christmas tree with your intestines I'm not saying you are to blame, but one could say you did provoke it.

bamccaig's own words on the matter :

bamccaig said:

Kwame Alexander said:

Have any of your friends been raped? I doubt it, if you're making a ridiculous statement like that. I know that you're not saying that you condone it, but seriously.

That was mostly just an offensive, controversial, and ignorant way of saying I disagree with dressing that skimpy. I may still feel sympathy, but I also may not.

bamccaig alienates people, and he likes to get under people's skin. Those two threads are just the tip of the iceberg. If you guys can't see he has been the cause of detriment to our community then I think you're blind. Do his positive contributions outweigh his negative ones? Are they worth putting up with? And losing community members because of it? Decide for yourself.

If you want the witch hunt to stop, maybe you should stop stirring the pot and quit while you're ahead.

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

bamccaig said:

I think that he actually made very valid points. He took the time yadayadayada

Now who's missing the humour? Double standards anyone? ;)

I've never heard expressions like "With all due respect" used positively. Never. They're always followed by something insulting. The sad part is, the rest of Chris's post was fine and would not have been insulting by itself, but with that preface, you know something was wrong.

Now the part about me therefore not respecting him as a person because of it - that was me being flippant. I even put a ;) on the end. You're the expert in that kind of humour, or so we thought.

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Great :) Unfortunately, since you started a sentence with that totally backhanded comment, the feeling is no longer mutual

I'm not going to reply to you any more in this thread since you apparently think I don't respect you.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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bamccaig said:

They obviously didn't understand me or are just closed minded and prejudiced.

It's always someone else's fault. Never his. ::)

It's that whole persecution complex rearing its head. he is always right, any time he is shown he is not, HE IS STILL RIGHT and you just don't understand, and you are not just wrong, you are prejudiced against him.

*sigh*

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Chris, if it helps, I'll address your other comments (the ones you might have been afraid showed signs of disrespect).

I have to say that I hate that argument so much. The second you bring "Report rates" into the mix, all statistics are meaningless.

In fairness to me, I didn't do that. The graph title did that - unless you want to draw a distinction between 'reported' and 'police-recorded'. Do you?

Quote:

It then becomes nothing more than "Well, I feel like the USA has more rapes, so it must have more rapes."

My comment about Sweden having the best culture was not meant to be taken seriously anyway. Furinkan had taken a liking to Sweden, so I thought, why not praise Sweden and encourage him some more? Out of interest, why did you even have Sweden's rape rates in mind? What have you been up to? ;)

Quote:

Yes yes yes, 3rd-world countries that don't even believe rape can happen don't count, but similar, free, democratic countries are still comparable.

The graph has a strange mix of countries. Why not the UK? Did someone hand-pick the countries to make Sweden look special?

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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So today, I was in a cafe doing some reading, and a young college age guy and a girl come in to the cafe. He had a few gay mannerisms but they may be friends or a couple or something else I don't know but the girl was quite attractive, wearing a tight lowcut blouse and a black mini skirt, so naturally she caught my attention and I took a few looks here and there. Her and her friend get ready to order drinks and discuss where to sit as they were apparently meeting someone else there from what I overheard of their conversation. Thing is, while they're discussing these things, she turned around and faced away from me and maybe she had mis-dressed herself mistakenly or she was a terrible tramp because the slit in her skit that should normally be on the side to show off a woman's thigh, was directly in back. :o The slit went high enough that it was showing her butt cheeks and if she was wearing underwear it must have been a thong or something because it didn't really look like it. I looked away feeling a bit like a peeping tom, but the sight was kind of burned into my mind. Not that she was un-attractive or anything, but looking directly at someone's exposed back side is a bit like being mooned by people on the interstate. You don't want to look but you keep doing it anyway. Bear in mind, it's not like I was actively trying to look up her skirt because you know I've seen it before and it's pretty rude to do so as well, but it was just that her skirt wasn't even there in the back and its pretty distracting when someone is just hanging it all out for the world to see. I wanted to say something to her but in the end I didn't. I thought that either she had done it on purpose or else it would just embarrass her so much that I shouldn't say anything to her. After all, her friend should know about it right, I mean they walked together here. How can he not know? I mean was she really some kind of ultra slut hanging out with her gay friend? I have to think that she wasn't now that I think back on it and I feel bad for not saying anything to her about it. I should have said something at least like "hey, excuse me, but I think you might want to adjust your skirt a little bit. Isn't it a little bit drafty in here?". I mean if she didn't do it on purpose then it would probably have been the nice thing to do to let her know so that she could fix it. Well after a while they got their drinks and went to sit somewhere off to the side. I wasn't finished with my reading but I had to go so I left but I didn't say anything to her even though I feel that now maybe I should have.

So, what would you have done in my place?

A. Enjoyed the view.
B. Looked away and minded your own business.
C. Tell her, even though it might really embarrass her.
D. Other. (please comment)

And yes bamccaig I'm baiting you. :D Gonna bite? ;D

tl;dr;
I got flashed today.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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A little of A, a little of B. Saying something to her would be opening yourself up for all kinds of negative attention.

"Pervert!"
"Psycho!"
"Creep!"
"Pig!"
"Rapist!"

Let alone if my girlfriend caught me. :o

It's socially acceptable for women to dress like that (more or less), but it's still socially unacceptable for men to really openly enjoy it (even if that's the point). Besides that, if it was accidental you're still a strange man that she doesn't know so you can't very well approach her with something so intimate and personal and get away with it. The exception would be if you happen to be very attractive and charming. Turns out only ugly or shy guys are creeps.

Of course, I'd argue that it's quite likely that she did this on purpose and attempting to do something nice like point out her wardrobe malfunction would end up hurting you. Either by humiliating you for thinking otherwise, or for implying that there was something wrong with the way she is dressed (even if, you know, there probably was).

I digress. I don't know if that really happened or you invented it to try to trick me into saying something incriminating, but I'm not concerned. I enjoyed the imagery regardless. 8-)

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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You know, every once in a while you make some pretty good points. Don't let me go feeding your ego or anything though. And you weren't even offensive about it. Is that really you?

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Right!

I have it on good authority from a Swede that Swedes call 'rape' given the slightest provocation, and it's turned into an inverse witch hunt. Hence the crazy graph. For example, apparently this story will not have been included in a Swedish newspaper. (I haven't searched - is it out there?)

[EDIT]
Oh and Chris, I thought some more about what "I respect you as a person, but" meant - it suggests that me using an argument you hate was a bigger problem than it should be. Why is your respect for me as a person even a topic just because I made some flippant, unresearched comment on the Internet about Swedish culture? What about all the stuff I really define myself by, such as my efforts to help people such as bambams here, or the music and games I've made for people to enjoy? ;)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Oh and Chris, I thought some more about what "I respect you as a person, but" meant - it suggests that me using an argument you hate was a bigger problem than it should be. Why is your respect for me as a person even a topic just because I made some flippant, unresearched comment on the Internet about Swedish culture? What about all the stuff I really define myself by, such as my efforts to help people such as bambams here, or the music and games I've made for people to enjoy? ;)

Who says I need any help? Oh, you mean, all of those people that don't respect me because of researched comments that I've made on the Internet about Western culture? ::)

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

I like what someone in IRC said about this thread - "a bunch of people demonizing bambams for his opinions, while at the same time making themselves guilty of all the things they are accusing him of" :P

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Oi! I did not spend most of this thread demonising bambams or anyone else ;)

It's been a difficult thread to participate in healthily though, I'll grant you that ;D

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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My only objective in this thread was to make bam aware of how I and others perceive him. And it's hardly demonizing someone when you are simply pointing out their bad behaviour. And if bambams is such a victim then why aren't the people on IRC coming into the thread to support him? Because really I'm the villain for not agreeing with the way bamboy acts and finally saying something about it. Right? Yeah, ok. Whatever. :-/

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I'm demonizing his behavior. Do you think a person is their behavior, and thus attacking their behavior is attacking them? I personally think a person is not their behavior. You can change your behavior.

I would like it very much if bam continued to improve his behavior. Then I'd have no (or very little) problem with him at all.

Like i said before, his behavior on #allegro is much improved. His anti-women ranting has plummeted. I and many others thank him for that. He still rants a bit, but its pretty much tech related (he hates mercurial ;D), and might be valid points (though if it is as broken as he claims, how do people use it at all?) Ranting imo is ok occasionally. Everyone does it. So long as you're not being insulting or disrespectful towards other people, it's not something I have a problem with.

That said, we are human, and to err is human. The occasional misstep is bound to happen, and is not something that is grounds for serious repercussions.

Elias said:

I like what someone in IRC said about this thread - "a bunch of people demonizing bambams for his opinions, while at the same time making themselves guilty of all the things they are accusing him of"

I completely disagree with that sentiment. I wasn't intentionally insulting bambams, where as he has repeatedly insulted me.

Asking a person to STOP insulting people, and bringing to light his transgressions is NOT demonizing.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

Elias said:

I like what someone in IRC said about this thread - "a bunch of people demonizing bambams for his opinions, while at the same time making themselves guilty of all the things they are accusing him of" :P

That is not quite right. But I wouldn't expect anyone to read this thread carefully anyway. :P

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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IRC is sooooooo 1990. >:(

Sevalecan
Member #4,686
June 2004
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Like this if you're IRCing in 2015.

TeamTerradactyl: SevalecanDragon: I should shoot you for even CONSIDERING coding like that, but I was ROFLing too hard to stand up. I love it!
My blog about computer nonsense, etc.

Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

Polybios said:

But I wouldn't expect anyone to read this thread carefully anyway. :P

I keep trying to, but you guys keep making it longer. At the very least, I feel relieved that a more-or-less civil discussion concerning very personal things has taken place on, of all places, the Internet. As avatars on the forums and nicks on the list, we might not have the access to each other's weak points as would, say, a family member or loved one--but we are nevertheless free from social rules and obligations. No holds are barred--and yet a good, clean fight has managed to take place. I am still processing it.

Also, bambams really needs to be commended for being down to earth and emotionally immune throughout it all. He could very well be an asshole in some people's books. I don't know. I don't much care--but his resistance to misinterpretation of facts with personal attacks is admirable.

The next step is figuring out how to pass on this immunity to others, at least in part. I would like to think that possible.

Sevalecan said:

Like this if you're IRCing in 2015.

👍

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

Also, bambams really needs to be commended for being down to earth and emotionally immune throughout it all. He could very well be an asshole in some people's books. I don't know. I don't much care--but his resistance to misinterpretation of facts with personal attacks is admirable.

Is that how you saw it :o

IMO he sees just about everything as a personal attack when it doesn't match up with his world view. then he goes into attack mode.

So yeah, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Care to explain?

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
avatar

I don't much care--but his resistance to misinterpretation of facts with personal attacks is admirable.

Are you referring to me specifically? I did my best to reason out and rationally explain where I was coming from. I was not out to make personal attacks, nor do I think I have been misinterpreting facts.

If I was insenstive or sexist or rude (did I tell anyone to put a fresh pad in their panties? Which is both rude to the person you're telling it to, and rude to women as well?) then please bring it to my recollection and attention.

Felix-The-Ghost
Member #9,729
April 2008
avatar

Didn't read thread, but saw question in last post and it is clear that quoted post is regarding bamccaig :P

==========================
<--- The ghost with the most!
---------------------------
[Website] [Youtube]

furinkan
Member #10,271
October 2008
avatar

... or why can't we all just get along?

To answer the original question: because this is the off topic forums. We sit around and dick measure all day. I thought that WAS the point of off topic boards...

I'll go ahead and settle all the qualms here:

  1. My dick is bigger

  2. My fiancee is blacker

  3. My ass is hotter

  4. There is no god but me

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

furinkan said:

My fiancee is blacker
My ass is hotter

In my case, my wife is hotter.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

I have three gods in one.

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert



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