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The Curse of the Programmer
Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

... or why can't we all just get along?

We all have a lot in common. Our having congregated to this or any other forum outlines our lowest common denominator, with still more existing elsewhere, beyond the obvious... and yet, we quibble. We hurt each other's feelings and drive one another insane.

... partially, at least. It's not really that bad. Still, I can't help but wonder why. Yes, we are at times more callous than would be proper. Yes, we are also overly sensitive. We are tinkerers of machines not by mere coincidence but because certain parts of who we are drew us to where we are today. Perhaps we experience joy in our machine counterparts for their relative simplicity. Input yields output. They do our bidding.

And perhaps years of such thinking, or even just the ability to perform such thinking, renders aspects of humanity (both in ourselves and in others) outside our fields of vision. I don't know. I have no answers. I only ponder.

Luigi wants to touch your boobies.

Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
avatar

Ya know, I was thinking about this yesterday, too.

I think the nature of our quibbility mostly stems from the nuances of text-based communication. It's very easy to inject emotion or tone in text that isn't there; typically when reading paragraphs in short bursts that don't have enough time to convey voice. When you combine that with criticism and overly sensitive personalities (I am one of those personalities), it can become quite a tentacled-beast.

Luigi wants to touch your boobies.

keepin' it real.

--
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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Luigi wants to touch your boobies.

Go right ahead ;)

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

I don't really see where the anger comes in. I mean, does anybody even remember the poop throwing contests between X-G, Miran, and 23yrold3yrold we used to have ALL THE TIME?

This place used to be far more aggressive, and Reddit and Slashdot are still much more angry.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

We're all getting older and touchier >:(

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

Matthew would not allow anybody to get out of hand. We now teach children that they're all awesome, even if they're stupid. Perhaps it is the "feminist" shift in society spilling into the minds of certain members and onto the boards. People are too sensitive these days. I mean, a woman makes a shirt for a man that he wears to work on a day that he happens to be on camera and suddenly there's a shitstorm of pussies crying about sexism. You know what, that kind of thing makes me think we need to bring back the backhand.

The last example that I recall of somebody whining because their feelings had been hurt was Aaron Bolyard. And he's more than happy to be blunt and offensive with other people, but his ego is quick to bruise. I suggest he puts a fresh pad in his panties and sucks it up. He seems very sensitive about the importance of game programming to the world. And while video games are fucking awesome and very important in that aspect, the skills are typically very specialized and don't necessarily map to the rest of software very well at all. Point is, everybody has merit, and if he wants to be respected he should either show respect to other people or argue his points with integrity and persistence. If it's offensive for somebody to question what you say then you aren't actually discussing anything and you can go fuck yourself.

I digress. I'm too goddamn tired to deal with all of the stupid these days. Man the fuck up. >:( Or shut the fuck up. Or don't. I'm not your god.

Erin Maus
Member #7,537
July 2006
avatar

bamccaig said:

The last example that I recall of somebody whining because their feelings had been hurt was Aaron Bolyard. And he's more than happy to be blunt and offensive with other people, but his ego is quick to bruise. I suggest he puts a fresh pad in his panties and sucks it up. He seems very sensitive about the importance of game programming to the world. And while video games are fucking awesome and very important in that aspect, the skills are typically very specialized and don't necessarily map to the rest of software very well at all. Point is, everybody has merit, and if he wants to be respected he should either show respect to other people or argue his points with integrity and persistence. If it's offensive for somebody to question what you say then you aren't actually discussing anything and you can go fuck yourself.

I have no words.

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.
they / she

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

bamccaig - this is exactly the kind of insensitive hostililty the rest of us are sick of, and you are the one causing it in many of the cases. We're all glad you're a fucking super self righteous know it all atheist and all but that doesn't give you the right to go around bashing everybody elses opinion and feelings. You are way more zealous than any of the rest of us here. What's up with that? Insecure much? Feel the need to bring everybody else down to your level so we can share in your misery? Stop being such an obtuse wanker already or GTFO. Seriously. >:(

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

I have no words.

Me either. He likes to call me a communist dictator a-like because i asked him to stop being such an ass in #allegro. ::) He did get a lot better, but I still have to put up with whats left till he actually does something that breaks the channel rules.

Please don't let one or two toxic people drive you away :(

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

  1. I don't think Aaron's going anywhere. He has some good friends here and if he's anything like me, he is still laughing at bambams's post. ;)

  2. bambams's post made me lawl. Basically, as soon as I read that "teaching children they're awesome even if they're stupid" is a form of feminism, I knew the whole post was going to be hilarious. ;)

  3. video

On a more serious note, a few years ago I went through something possibly similar to the alluded-to incident. I teased people a bit at work and then didn't want to be teased back. Granted it was teasing, not hostility, and the person I was teasing seemed to understand it as such; but it goes to show that everyone can have double standards sometimes and as long as we recognise it when necessary and work on it, it's no big deal. Of course this may be completely irrelevant anyway as I have no idea what the incident was. ;)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

bambam's post made me lawl. Basically, as soon as I read that "teaching children they're awesome even if they're stupid" is a form of feminism, I knew the whole post was going to be hilarious. ;)

This is precisely why bambam gets away with this shit. He spouts misogynistic overzealous vitriol and you guys laugh at it and find it funny. Instead of coddling him you should be telling him where to get the fuck off.

Sevalecan
Member #4,686
June 2004
avatar

Tomasu said:

We're all getting older and touchier >:(

Or in your case older and fatter.

Just because I insult Tomasu all day in IRC doesn't mean I'm a bad person!

TeamTerradactyl: SevalecanDragon: I should shoot you for even CONSIDERING coding like that, but I was ROFLing too hard to stand up. I love it!
My blog about computer nonsense, etc.

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

coddling him

On the contrary, I think he feels very strongly and it is quite the insult to find the whole thing ridiculous enough to laugh at. Beyond that, not knowing what the incident was, I shouldn't comment - but what he describes of Aaron does seem out of character from what I know.

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

People think his behavior is harmless, but people have actively avoided this site and Allegro in general because of him, and people like him. I'd prefer if we could all act more civilized, but I have no actual say here. soooo...

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Sevalecan
Member #4,686
June 2004
avatar

Honestly nothing bambams does really grinds me, except when some of my own ideas are challenged on a sincere level which people rarely do. On that note, I find that while I had plenty to be offended at 15 years ago in #allegro on IRC, I rarely do so now and I would dare argue the maturity of the whole community is gone up. If we all tolerate disruptions more readily, I'd like to think it's because of that.

Now, speaking of disruption.... I'm thinking KimmoA, aj^ after he became zap0, or raf256...

TeamTerradactyl: SevalecanDragon: I should shoot you for even CONSIDERING coding like that, but I was ROFLing too hard to stand up. I love it!
My blog about computer nonsense, etc.

Erin Maus
Member #7,537
July 2006
avatar

I'm not leaving because of one humbug.

Beyond that, not knowing what the incident was, I shouldn't comment - but what he describes of Aaron does seem out of character from what I know.

I made a badly phrased comment on the competency matrix thread:

Quote:

In all honesty, I don't know why I bother posting anywhere. I either am ignored or someone just discredits me. Oh well.

It wasn't clear I was not just referring to 'this forum,' but posting in general on the internet. On other communities (i.e., ones I rarely post on anymore due to community shifts), people tend to be stuck up or abrasive. Sometimes it feels like this community is heading that way (due to stagnation or whatever).

For a relatively recent example, I once made a detailed explanation of a RuneScape boss monster (kills per hour, general profit per hour, that kind of stuff) on Reddit, was pretty badly downvoted before making a separate post, and even then was met with some abrasive/rude comments. There's plenty more examples. I've learnt to brush it off. It's the internet, after all.

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.
they / she

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

It wasn't clear I was not just referring to 'this forum,' but posting in general on the internet. On other communities (i.e., ones I rarely post on anymore due to community shifts), people tend to be stuck up or abrasive.

Yeah, the internet sucks.

Quote:

Sometimes it feels like this community is heading that way (due to stagnation or whatever).

The worst people used to be worse. Now we just have much fewer of those people, I guess they don't get much fun out of trolling here anymore.

Reddit is basically the new 4chan. if you expected anything good out of it, I think you were mistaken :(

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

jmasterx
Member #11,410
October 2009

People tend to be a lot more civil when their identity is known. For example, your average FB news feed will be filled with "OMG you're so awesome, we love you, we believe in you, etc". But your average forum post will be a lot less civilized. This is probably one of the reasons Google integrated G+ into You Tube's comment system (among many, many other reasons). Because comments made from people's G+ accounts are generally a little more civilized because it links back to your real identity in some way.

Therefore, at the cost of anonymity, ML could enforce Facebook login, and require the permission to post to your timeline. Using a fork of the al_mind_control_addon we detect posts and threads that are unacceptable and automatically post to the person's timeline for accountability.

That would probably cause members to think twice about what they post as it could have consequences outside of a.cc.

Aaron is one of my favorite a.cc members, and his projects fascinate me. We can't afford to lose members like him here; keeping the spirit of intense hobby programming alive is vital to the a.cc community IMO.

Also in my opinion, I find Bam's comment a form of cyberbullying, and I think that's f​ucked up. It is not constructive, it's just plain mean.

a.cc for me has long been a community that I enjoy being part of, and I am all for freedom of expression, but blatantly insulting someone is wrong. >:(

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Reddit actually looks very civilised whenever I read comments there. People make witty puns and stuff and play off each other. Maybe I've been lucky in the parts I've been to. I've never posted anything though.

Although, when I look at your RuneScape thread, I notice that there are lots of short, harmless comments and then one long, rude comment. At least you know that it's only one person and that the rest of us (and them) can also see what that person is like.

As for the competency matrix thread: I call Dunning-Kruger on certain reactions there, without mentioning any names ;)

Regarding bambams's comment about Aaron, I think:

  • If any of the comment is valid, then citations are needed. Give us the information so we can decide whether we agree with your judgements, or we can make our own.

  • Always try constructive feedback before destructive. The stuff in this thread was pretty destructive.

  • In certain cases, consider whether your own perception is being affected by stress or tiredness and actually there isn't a problem with anyone else. We all have this.

  • If mistakes are made that you don't realise until some time afterwards, come back and say sorry - and mean it - and work on what caused it and make sure it doesn't happen again. Again, we all have this, and it's fine as long as you do what I just said.

If it's really true that this drives others away, then it needs addressing. I'm a little dubious about whether that's true though. All the people who might be driven away by this thread for example can also see all the other posts in this thread, so they know that we're generally cohesive and supportive and see through rubbish.

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

What Thomas does is basically hypocritical. He's happy to troll, he's happy to discuss off-topic and off-color topics in #allegro (and even here), but anything that I say is disallowed somehow. He's openly hostile and threatening with his chanop privileges, which is pretty much against the rules of freenode in itself. He just cannot handle the responsibility of admin (having been the admin of Counter-Strike servers I realize that it is a huge burden, and it's hard to keep personal feelings out of it).

As for me being the main source of issues here I don't think that's true. Honestly, I've been less and less active here in the past few years. I've been busy with work. I just haven't had as much time to post. I was much more active and much more aggressive in the past and it never hurt participation rates. Some of my most controversial posts and threads have been within the most active and spirited discussions. Many members have expressed appreciation for my participation and defended me against undeserved pitchforking. Interestingly enough, traffic here has died down quite a lot too as myself and several other "controversial" members become less active. It probably has more to do with others than me, but that's sort of the point. It's not necessarily because of the controversial ones. I guess the rest of you left have nothing interesting to say. ;)

There used to be quite a lot more abrasive conversation. There are many respected members that have left this community that would participate in spicing things up. And that doesn't mean trolling. If everybody agrees on a topic there's no point discussing it. And I think that's what's happening. The more free speech and open debate is chased away from here, even if only by the community members and not by the mods, the more the temperature rises and the less friendly of a place it truly becomes. You think you're protecting people, but what you're really doing is making the place unwelcoming.

There used to be a live community here. Part of it moved on due to growing pains and technological advances, but I think that many were chased off by the weakening community. It saddens me to think of all of the valuable people that we've lost over the years. Many of them controversial at times. Now people are so over-sensitized here that the slightest thing will send somebody into a crying fit. ZOMG, they're going to leave the boards and everybody has to jump to their rescue so they don't leave! There's nothing wrong with sympathy, but if their complaints are legitimate then there are moderators to step in (though I imagine they may be inactive too for the same reasons).

New members join and right away they're warned about the abuses they'll suffer! True debates get heated, and true debates are sensitive. That's exactly what you want in the off-topic board. If you don't want to be involved in that then stick to the on-topic boards. Those have always been less active on this site, but that's because there's only so much you can do in a programming forum. The real work happens off board, without the distractions. On board it's hard to align experience levels and interests so that threads are really active. There used to be the occasional interesting thread in the programming forum too, but they were mostly subjective topics still. They were controversial. I'm sure there still are interesting threads in the on-topic boards, but I think they often move into non-beginner topics. Shaders and GL and blah blah blah. It's almost off-topic for Allegro. It's not unwelcome at all, but if that's all there is then I think it leaves a lot of people out. Especially from the target audience for Allegro.

I don't see too many truly beginner threads anymore. C and C++ are challenging languages. Either we've gotten good at offering resources, newbies have gotten good at searching (yeah, right), or there just aren't any real newbies flowing in.

I don't know where Aaron was coming from. Obviously I got the impression that it was triggered mostly from an external site, but nothing that I saw discussed in the applicable thread (or others I've read recently) suggests that he was being misunderstood or taken out of context. He challenged ideas and people challenged him back. That's healthy. If that's all he has to complain about then I think he's got his own personal issues to deal with. That's no problem. We're happy to help him with those if he so choses. Doesn't mean everybody is going to hold his hand in the process. Certainly that's not the treatment that I get.

I've often been confronted, had entire groups of people siding against me, and occasionally I've even learned from the experience. I think the opposite has happened once in a while too. Sometimes it's exactly what you asked for, even if you didn't know it. Sometimes there are just misunderstandings, or people have bad days, etc. Life goes on. I've personally been through far worse than what I have seen lately. I think that collectively it has made me a better person, even if it wasn't always deserved. And generally people will come to your defense. It used to be that we wouldn't ask people to GTFO. We'd discuss the merits of their ideas and try to come to a logical conclusion. It seems those days are gone. Which probably also contributes to making this a hostile environment for technologists. If logic doesn't rule the day then how are we supposed to live here?

Meh. Just the ramblings of a tired, drunk, barely-active "veteran"[1].

References

  1. Not to be confused with a real-life soldier or ex-soldier.
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

bamccaig said:

He's happy to troll, he's happy to discuss off-topic and off-color topics in #allegro (and even here), but anything that I say is disallowed somehow.

You talk all the darn time, and you haven't gotten a single warning in ages. Mostly because you actually seem to be acting more civilized lately.

If I was the person you think I am, I'd have banned you long ago.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Go and sleep.

When you're sober, re-read what you wrote to Aaron.

When you cringe, then that's a step in the right direction. :)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

bamccaig said:

There used to be quite a lot more abrasive conversation.

Does that make it appropriate? Or welcoming? No.

bamccaig said:

There are many respected members that have left this community that would participate in spicing things up. And that doesn't mean trolling. If everybody agrees on a topic there's no point discussing it. And I think that's what's happening.

Disagreeing is not the issue. Being an offensive jerk towards other members of the forum is disrespectful and does not serve the community's best interest.

bamccaig said:

The more free speech and open debate is chased away from here, even if only by the community members and not by the mods, the more the temperature rises and the less friendly of a place it truly becomes. You think you're protecting people, but what you're really doing is making the place unwelcoming.

What you consider free speech and open debate I consider to be veiled insults and simply a way for you to feel important. There's a way to disagree without being a prick about it.

bamccaig said:

There used to be a live community here. Part of it moved on due to growing pains and technological advances, but I think that many were chased off by the weakening community. It saddens me to think of all of the valuable people that we've lost over the years. Many of them controversial at times.

Is that we allow certain people (ahem) to dominate these forums with their idiocy. I'm deleting my link to the forums from my speed dial again. Good luck with all your bugs.

http://xkcd.com/1357/

What is weakening the community is hostility towards its members from within, and a lot of it comes from you bam.

TrentG left exactly because of this, and NiteHackr has been quiet now since he said he was thinking about leaving too.

bamccaig said:

Now people are so over-sensitized here that the slightest thing will send somebody into a crying fit. ZOMG, they're going to leave the boards and everybody has to jump to their rescue so they don't leave! There's nothing wrong with sympathy, but if their complaints are legitimate then there are moderators to step in (though I imagine they may be inactive too for the same reasons).

We have to decide as a community who we want to feel welcome, and who we don't. I'd much rather have the people back that you've offended over the years than have someone who can only tear down other's viewpoints. The few women that were here have all disappeared, and more than likely because they didn't feel especially welcome. Yes, there are female programmers out there. They exist. Trust me I've seen them. ;)

And speaking of Mods, I don't know if a.cc even has any active Mods anymore. Mr. Kalliokoski has been AWOL for a while now, and I never see anybody else step in.

Have you ever heard of constructive criticism? Instead of bashing people for being sensitive we should encourage people's growth and make them feel welcome here. As long as they're not intentionally trying to bring people down.

It only takes one person to poison a well and make a whole community sick.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

If I was the person you think I am, I'd have banned you long ago.

You can't because you'd have to defend yourself to the freenode network and the topics you permit to be discussed from everybody else and even actively participate in. #allegro is not at all a strict channel. We discuss things all the time. And honestly that would be fine. The only reason you get butt-hurt is because certain people with bias have chosen to take a strong stance against my arguments and in a few cases have chosen to avoid the channel as a result. For the most part, they weren't very active regardless. And for the most part, I've gotten along with them just fine until sensitive topics are brought up, usually by others, and I have every right to challenge their ideas. If they don't want to talk about them then they shouldn't bring them up. The thing is, they very much want to spread their ideas, and just want me to not be allowed to spread mine. They can't defeat my ideas in debate. They can only run away from the debate. I think that says a lot. If nothing else it says that the topic is open to debate.

Go and sleep.

When you're sober, re-read what you wrote to Aaron.

Surely we've learned by now that my ideas are rarely affected by exhaustion or intoxication and that I compose myself fairly well while both tired and drunk (and neither). That doesn't mean that people don't find myself controversial while tired and under the influence of alcohol, but that they typically find me equally controversial while rested and sober.

For the most part, all I have said regarding Aaron is that I don't think that he has any reason to feel unwelcome or unappreciated. I wrapped it in a strategic envelope of off-color humor (I think). As usual, I wish no ill will upon Aaron. He is obviously a well respected member of this community, and I get the impression that he's a well accomplished [aspiring?] game programmer. I think that he has a communication imbalance between abrasiveness and sensitivity, but that's nothing that can't be improved upon. I think particularly that his complaints about online posts being unappreciated are invalid. Either he's posting in the wrong channels[1], or what he's saying isn't as valuable as he thinks. I don't know because I haven't been very active lately. It's probably not a binary value. I've predominantly seen off-topic posts in the past few days from him and that's all that I'm responding to.

References

  1. There are legitimately stupid people in the world, and the Internet is long no longer a haven of competence.
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

bamccaig said:

You can't because you'd have to defend yourself to the freenode network and the topics you permit to be discussed from everybody else and even actively participate in

Bullshit. As a channel op, you have full control to ban rude, offensive, sexist, ass-hats all you want.

You were out of line on many occasions. People were not happy. I asked you to stop. That is my job as a channel op. If this were other channels, you'd have been perm banned a LONG time ago.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730



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