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There's no 4K content they said.
Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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"Waaa... Waaa... what's the point, 1080p is enough for everyone!", they snapped.

And then came the 8K scans of Lawrence of Arabia, down-converted to 4K.
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A movie filmed in 53 years ago somehow has enough data that it still cannot be displayed on a modern television.

You hear that? That's the sound of armchair warriors weeping as they realize that 35mm film needs 87-175 megapixels to capture. And that doesn't even include films shot in 70mm format... like Lawrence of Arabia.

But we don't need 4K TVs... there's no content! ... Except every movie shot on film since the dawn of man.

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“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

StevenVI
Member #562
July 2000
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But we don't need 4K TVs... there's no content! ... Except every movie shot on film since the dawn of man.

Even with my corrected 20/20 vision, I can't tell the difference between a DVD and a Blu-ray when I'm sitting on the couch.

We've all seen these tired old graphs, haven't we? (I can't vouch for the accuracy of this one, but it looks like it matches my experience in personal testing.)

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High resolution on a monitor makes sense. But when I'm watching TV I personally don't want the screen to be right in my face. The benefit I see in higher resolution images is the ability to zoom and retain quality. Which isn't really something that makes sense to me for motion pictures.

Quote:

35mm film needs 87-175 megapixels [www.kenrockwell.com] to capture

I won't dispute this, because it is true that film has much higher resolution than consumer digital cameras. But my experience from looking at some of his stuff is that Ken Rockwell likes to pretend he knows more than he really does, so you might want to get a better source.

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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StevenVI said:

Even with my corrected 20/20 vision, I can't tell the difference between a DVD and a Blu-ray when I'm sitting on the couch.

Get a better tv then :P

I can tell the difference between DVDs and Blurays very easily. VERY easily. I can even do 720p and 1080p in some cases. I have a 55" that's about 12 feet away.

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Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

Digital audio is nice because once you've reached 32-bit resolution at 192 kHz, all but the craziest of audiophiles will agree the quality is better than wax. Two ears; two channels; and simple, uncompressed wave sampling... gotta love audio.

beoran
Member #12,636
March 2011

Kids these days! For me anything above 256x224 is fine for gaming. For movies, well, DVD resolution is more than enough. :)

StevenVI
Member #562
July 2000
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Quote:

Get a better tv then :P

I like my TV just fine the way it is. I don't feel incomplete because I don't have a gigantic screen to veg out in front of, or the "latest and greatest" gadgets. :)

Edit: For reference, I have a 40" 1080p TV that's viewed at a distance of about 15 feet.

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Personally, the quality i get out of my setup really enhances my experience. If you don't think it'd help you enjoy things, well thats fine.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

furinkan
Member #10,271
October 2008
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With my 42 inch 1080p, I can tell a difference... however I don't see the point in upgrading. I'm watching a movie, not an art expo. I don't need to pause and gawk at every digital imperfection.

I find that after 720p, I no longer notice artifacts in general viewing. I think greater than 1080 would be a waste unless our TV grows another 10 inches. TBH, there's another toy I'd rather be 10 inches bigger, and it isn't electronic. ;D

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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StevenVI said:

Even with my corrected 20/20 vision, I can't tell the difference between a DVD and a Blu-ray when I'm sitting on the couch.

I can easily tell the difference between 720p and 1080p. I can absolutely tell the difference between a 1 GB movie and a 4 GB movie's compression artifacts. And now that I'm using a 40" screen @ 1080p from 1-2 feet back, I can absolutely absolutely tell you that the DPI of 1080p is way too low and serious eye strain results when trying to read text.

But I was raised around film guys, and have ideas for films in the distance future. So perhaps I'm an outlier. But I can definitely see the difference between a 720p and 1080p video on YouTube.

And 4K is really where it starts getting magical. Why? Because the pixels finally become small enough that if you're a few feet away you can't see them for a typical TV. (8K and more for larger TVs, of course for a fixed DPI.) People don't realize that just because you can't pick a pixel out doesn't mean it doesn't contribute to the overall picture. It's the same reason that low-res pixels that are way too big still work. When looking at a picture, you (hopefully) see the picture, not the pixels. The smaller the pixel, the crisper the image. Go look at some 4K TV demos at BestBuy/wherever and see the difference.

As Thomas said, the experience is much better when watching movies that are very "absorbing" mentally. Surely a romantic comedy could be watched on an iPod, but big epic movies like Jurassic Park or last night, Kelly's Heroes, really benefit from a proper cinema setup. I mean it should make sense, these things are designed for "The Big Screen" so running it with lower resolution, lower dynamic contrast, and lower screen size, is certainly going to detract.

Digital audio is nice because once you've reached 32-bit resolution at 192 kHz, all but the craziest of audiophiles will agree the quality is better than wax. Two ears; two channels; and simple, uncompressed wave sampling... gotta love audio.

That's a grey area for me. I don't think those armchair warriors that say "you can't hear above 22 KHz" are correct. But I don't have enough evidence right now to refute it.

It's entirely possible that frequencies outside of our hearing range impact the experience. BELOW hearing definitely, scientifically does. Moreover, assuming 22 KHz is a signal we can hear. We sample it at the Nyguist theorem @ 44 KHz. That means we have the absolute minimum of 2 sample points for that signal. That doesn't mean oversampling is not useful. 176 KHz means that we have 8 sample points for that interval. That will better tell whether than 22 KHz signal is a square wave, triangle, or sine wave. Anyone who has worked with an oscilloscope knows how oversampling can reveal a signal (and not oversampling can lead to false impressions.)

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At 2 points, we cannot tell a sine wave from a triangle wave.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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And now that I'm using a 40" screen @ 1080p from 1-2 feet back,

You can probably see the actual pixel cells that close. sheesh :o

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Well, I don't watch movies that close. But I work that close until I can find room for my normal 23" monitor as well.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I sit a couple feet back from my 24" LCDs. I can't imagine sitting that close to a 40". Of course they have the same actual resolution, so maybe the 40" would just let me not have to jack the font size up so far. ;D.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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That's one reason I really want a 4K monitor for working. This one is so cheap it's insane:

http://www.amazon.com/Seiki-SE39UY04-39-Inch-Ultra-120Hz/dp/B00DOPGO2G

I've watched some reviews.

http://youtu.be/i1O9bdQ_AyY?t=4m4s

(@ 4 minutes if it doesn't autoseek.)

Basically, I'd have the same screen area as my 40", but twice the vertical, and twice the horizontal resolution. The DPI doubles, but scrollbars and things aren't gigantic.

Also, with that screen area, tiling window managers really start to make sense.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

StevenVI
Member #562
July 2000
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That's one reason I really want a 4K monitor for working. This one is so cheap it's insane:

http://www.amazon.com/Seiki-SE39UY04-39-Inch-Ultra-120Hz/dp/B00DOPGO2G

Wow, that is insanely cheap. :o (I think I paid more than that for my TV a couple years back.) I can't justify buying it as a monitor though. :P

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Max Savenkov
Member #4,613
May 2004
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I still think any movie file >4Gb is a waste of bandwidth. Yes, my TV has 26'' screen (anything larger wouldn't fit into the space allocated for it), but I don't see a reason to own a bigger one. Bigger resolutions mostly matter for visual effects and stuff, and I don't need those. Wish there was a device to make plot and jokes better, though, I'd pay for THAT one...

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Wish there was a device to make plot and jokes better, though, I'd pay for THAT one...

Yeah, it's called "Google 1960's and 1970's movies". :P Space Odyssey, Alien, Sparticus, Patton. The list could go on almost forever.

I'd say only somewhat recently have movies become psychologically tied to dollar figures. That is "Do X/Y/Z and forgo any plot or story". Surely producers have always influenced things, but not like they do today. The money is too big, and the statistics too available. Nobody gets creative control in a movie that costs $150,000,000. Forget movie, any PROJECT involving that kind of money. But nowadays, movies are intentionally devoid of plot because movies are international affairs. Sony isn't making a movie for you and me. It's making a movie for a billion foreigners. And foreigners like big explosions and hate complex plots.

I mean honestly, when was the LAST political thriller movie you saw? Those are movies driven by dialog, and a complex unraveling plot. You can't sell that to people who don't speak English well or know (or care) about current affairs in the USA.

The last political thriller I saw was not only rare, but also hidden. Captain America 2. It's a political thriller hidden inside a dumb (as in easy to digest) comic book movie. You would think it's as dumb as Transformers, but under-the-hood is a hugely applicable social critique of us heading toward a total government control of information. Coincidentally, the movie was being made BEFORE the Snowden leaks.

You can't sell a Tom Clancy movie without more explosions, nor can you sell a Kevin Smith dialog-driven movie. The budgets are too high to not also target the international market. So Kevin Smith movies end up with tiny budgets.

Remember the ads for Inglourious Basterds? They made it look like Kill Bill, or an action movie so people would go see it. But the 30-second commercials had ALL the action scenes in the movie. The rest was dialog on top of dialog. They gave that movie a "mere" $75,000,000 budget even though it's a movie made by the legendary Quentin Tarantino.

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“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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And foreigners like big explosions and hate complex plots.

Interesting. That's what us "foreigners" think about Americans.

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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It's entirely possible that frequencies outside of our hearing range impact the experience. BELOW hearing definitely, scientifically does. Moreover, assuming 22 KHz is a signal we can hear. We sample it at the Nyguist theorem @ 44 KHz. That means we have the absolute minimum of 2 sample points for that signal. That doesn't mean oversampling is not useful. 176 KHz means that we have 8 sample points for that interval. That will better tell whether than 22 KHz signal is a square wave, triangle, or sine wave. Anyone who has worked with an oscilloscope knows how oversampling can reveal a signal (and not oversampling can lead to false impressions.)

Off topic, but you're falling into the trap of thinking PCM samples are continuous function values. They aren't. Samples, much like pixels, are discrete values, and everything in between them is 100% undefined. The trick is, given a series of samples captured at n hz, there is only one valid output for a signal that's limited to a frequency of n/2 (nyquist frequency). Sure, using a higher sample rate means you can define a better looking triangle or sawtooth waveform or whatever, but that extra detail is part of higher frequency content you can't hear. It can actually even interfere with the content you can hear when it's processed for output, since a band-limited signal is necessary for reconstructing an analog waveform (and if you don't have speakers that can actually play (unheard) high frequencies, or if you don't filter the signal to cut out those high frequencies, they'll get folded back into the audible range as noise).

This is a good primer on sampling.

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Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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LennyLen said:

Interesting. That's what us "foreigners" think about Americans.

With all due respect, I'm talking more about places like China/India, where English is not the primary language and there are huge populations. And it's not to imply some form of condescension.

Kitty Cat said:

The trick is, given a series of samples captured at n hz, there is only one valid output for a signal that's limited to a frequency of n/2 (nyquist frequency).

But I'm not restricting myself to Fourier representation. Just because a 6 HZ square wave has an infinite sum of sine waves, doesn't mean it's infinity hertz. It's 6 HZ.

So if I have a triangle wave at 20 KHz, and let's assume my ears can hear it, that doesn't mean a 20 KHz*2=40 KHz square wave sampling method is going to capture that. It's going to capture a square wave, not a triangle.

Perhaps I'm wrong and I have a misunderstanding in my fundamentals. But if that's the case I certainly welcome the correction.

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“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

Kitty Cat said:

This is a good primer on sampling.

I'm only a few minutes in but wanted to thank you, as the presenter is doing a great job.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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The original rant reminds me of how people were like "Bah, theres no content for HD!" turns out there only wasn't because they decided to only convert from the DVD master rather than the source. haha.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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But I'm not restricting myself to Fourier representation. Just because a 6 HZ square wave has an infinite sum of sine waves, doesn't mean it's infinity hertz. It's 6 HZ.

Right, but the 6hz is a parameter of the function defining the waveform. It starts with a 6hz sine wave, then adds up a particular series of rising frequencies with decaying attenuation (until you reach +inf frequency at -inf dB). The resulting sound isn't a pure 6hz signal, it's instead a signal focused at 6hz with specially-crafted distortion around it.

Ultimately, this means that at higher frequencies you do lose detail from the waveform, but that lost detail was inaudible to you anyway. If two different waveforms start creating similar sample patterns at higher frequencies, then that means the defining characteristics of the waveform would be in the higher frequencies you wouldn't be able to hear. Ergo, the two waveforms would sound as similar to humans as their resulting sample patterns look.

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"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will pee on your computer." -- Bruce Graham

relpatseht
Member #5,034
September 2004
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That's one reason I really want a 4K monitor for working. This one is so cheap it's insane:http://www.amazon.com/Seiki-SE39UY04-39-Inch-Ultra-120Hz/dp/B00DOPGO2G

Be careful. It doesn't support DVI or the next revision of the HDMI standard. It only does 30Hz at 4K. That's unacceptable in my book.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Be careful. It doesn't support DVI or the next revision of the HDMI standard. It only does 30Hz at 4K. That's unacceptable in my book.

Yeah, I know. Well, DVI isn't up to task (Dual Link max 2560×1600 @ 60 Hz). Newest HDMI is able, and DisplayPort can.

Some TVs support "twin HDMI cables" for half-and-half signal using existing technology but they're very specific.

30 Hz @ 4K, 120 Hz @ 1080p. So people do 4K for text data and movies, 1080p for video games (good luck running 4K on most video cards.) But that is the main reason I waited on buying it.

Basically the cable standards have been caught with their pants down with the huge leap in display resolutions. And content + display + videocard + cables all need to work. Cable standards being the ones that dragged their feet the most.

I really like what HDMI is pushing for (new DRM excluded) such as Deep Color (36/48-bit) color and RGBY support. The color gamut is much better with RGBY so colors like gold and violet actually look gold and violet. Basically everything you were taught in grade school was a lie, and you can't make all colors with red, green, and blue.

{"name":"4%20Colour%20v%203%20Colour.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/0\/b035d5a5838cd583981ab9c8860f0bb4.jpg","w":542,"h":294,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/0\/b035d5a5838cd583981ab9c8860f0bb4"}4%20Colour%20v%203%20Colour.jpg

I used to have the color gamut links for the general topic (not Sharp's implementation specifically), but I don't recall them at the moment. This picture sucks because it scales the image to make 3-primary look bigger than 4-primary.

[edit] Here's one at least showing the difference between RGB and the actual eye's abilities:

{"name":"800px-CIExy1931_sRGB_gamut_D65.png","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/a\/5\/a5a62598bfe9ada9aeff4eea3e11bc79.png","w":800,"h":884,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/a\/5\/a5a62598bfe9ada9aeff4eea3e11bc79"}800px-CIExy1931_sRGB_gamut_D65.png

Bettering image quality is probably the reason animals are starting to think TV is real-life. For example, an experiment with squids using TV showed them unresponsive. Switching to HD made them attack/inspect the screen. So the mere fact we think TV's are "good enough" is more indoctrination, the way people thought standard definition was "real enough." Now that we're really pushing the boundaries of color and resolution, we'll likely see a likewise increase in "experience."

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

relpatseht
Member #5,034
September 2004
avatar

My mistake. I meant Display Port.

Color depth is always such a disappointment on displays. I've noticed the better ones have started using a matrix for the back light, so they can give better perceived color depth at a block level. It is not the best solution, but a decent half measure.

I'm more interested in these applications for VR. There the problems of refresh rate and resolution greatly come into play (also pixel response time on dark to light transitions).

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