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Hack Windows XP to get another 5 years support. :)
Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Check this out, I done this on my wife's computer (I manually entered the registry entry though rather than the way he stated) and her computer is now installing updates as I type this. :)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2014/05/27/simple-hack-gives-windows-xp-users-5-more-years-of-support/

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

I don't need another 5 yrs of support for XP, but I do need a bigger partition because the one I have it on is running out of drive space and I can't update it anymore. Space on C is preciously small these days. Had to move the internet cache and uninstall Google Chrome to realize that did nothing at all until I emptied the recycle bin too. ::)

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Poor guy, I feel for ya. ;) I just got done installing over 40 updates. I can't afford to update Windows on her system at this time. The only other alternative is to put Linux on her system, which I still may do as she only ever uses Facebook and Youtube and whatever other websites she gets sent to so Linux would be perfect for her, probably run faster actually. I may put Xubuntu on. I looked at Kubuntu and Lubuntu, didn't like them (and of course Ubuntu).

But this will due in the meantime.

As for hard drive space, I am low on that as well on my Windows 7 machine, but also low on $$$ to upgrade it. ;)

I did manage to free a ton of space up when I went to uninstall some software and sorted the list by size. Found some savings there in programs I no longer use that I forgot about.

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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When windows 8 came out, there was a deal to get it for like $15 direct from MS. I jumped on it. Now I'll get a free upgrade to Windows 10 which supposedly will actually be useable.

I've only used that license on virtual box at this point though :o

--
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Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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When windows 8 came out, there was a deal to get it for like $15 direct from MS. I jumped on it. Now I'll get a free upgrade to Windows 10 which supposedly will actually be useable.

That's my plan too! I'm stuck with 8.1 on my work laptop and I still, after a year of being forced to do things the Win8.1 way, absolutely hate it.

This is stark contrast to say, Linux, where the learning curve was steep, but most of the differences at least made sense and had a feel to them. And after a few months you start liking things that don't even exist normally in Windows. (grep, where have you been my whole life?) Meanwhile, Windows 8 is design-by-committee at its worst.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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As for tricking Windows update into updating XP, this is not a legitimate crack, and Microsoft is just letting it happen. Now that a popular Web site has published it, and probably several people are spreading the word, Microsoft will get wind of it and probably disable it.

Even if they don't, there's no real guarantee that the updates won't break your system. Microsoft is more than happy to hack code for specific cases they believe are correct, even if it means very horrible coding practices and stupid assumptions.

It also means you're more than likely violating licensing terms, and if you're willing to do that you might as well download a cracked copy of Windows 7, 8, or 10.

XP was a decent OS for being proprietary, virus prone junk. :P Most people could get by with a gratis and [mostly] libre Linux or BSD distribution and probably be even more happy. And anybody willing to sacrifice conveniences could do the same with a purely libre distribution.

As for free or cheap Windows upgrades, there's a reason Microsoft is giving this shit away... ::) I hear people getting excited over free upgrades to Windows 10 and I feel like punching them in the face. People are really, really stupid. :-/

Append:

If you liked grep then you'll love ack!

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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sed is pretty amazing, though I've forgotten everything I've learned. I've never used ack.

regular expressions are so absolutely amazing. We wrote some in the field that used Notepad++ and ripped out all non-printable ASCII characters that were corrupting a database import.

bamccaig said:

As for tricking Windows update into updating XP, this is not a legitimate crack, and Microsoft is just letting it happen. Now that a popular Web site has published it, and probably several people are spreading the word, Microsoft will get wind of it and probably disable it.

Yeah, even if they backport some of the changes there's really no guarantee they're tested and correct. Sooner-or-later feature creep is going to hit hard.

As for XP, it's really really really really really sad that a huge number of PCs we come into contact with still run it. While annoying to deal with, I'm actually really glad Microsoft has dropped support for XP in all their current products like CRM for Outlook because it forces businesses to finally upgrade to something more reasonable.

For perspective, Windows XP was released months AFTER Wikipedia started. YouTube didn't exist. And Enron filed for bankruptcy protection.

[edit] Wait, isn't ack [search] just a more specific form of grep -nr [search]?

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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While annoying to deal with, I'm actually really glad Microsoft has dropped support for XP in all their current products like CRM for Outlook because it forces businesses to finally upgrade to something more reasonable.

Which is fine if you are running a regular desktop PC. But if, like every restaurant I've worked for in the last five years, you're working with an integrated PoS system, you can't upgrade to the later versions of Windows PoSready, because you don't have the hardware requirements. Instead you need to get rid of an expensive piece of equipment that is more than capable of doing what you need to buy an even more expensive equipment that has system specs that go way beyond what are required for PoS software.

Our machines need to be connected to the internet so that support staff can remotely connect to them to update/fix the PoS software, so I'd really like to be able to have all the security updates, but since the version of Windows PoSReady we have is XP based, no such luck.

Erin Maus
Member #7,537
July 2006
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My opinion on Windows: Windows XP is a horrible choice for any internet-connected (edit: consumer) device. Similarly, a minimum of Windows 7 should be supported by modern applications--regardless of the size or scope. Windows Vista is soon going out of support. In this instance, I agree with bamccaig that Linux is a better choice than Windows XP.

But I disagree with...

bamccaig said:

As for free or cheap Windows upgrades, there's a reason Microsoft is giving this shit away...

Windows is the better operating system for end-users. It just works without fuss.

As a good programmer and moderate power-user*, I also don't believe Linux is undeniably 'better' for power-users or programmers. Generally, there's this open-source vibe, which isn't bad! I admit, it's easier for me to compile a new software release on Linux than Windows (i.e., software from Git), but that's largely because open source libraries that I use target Linux first and treat Windows as a second class citizen. Most libraries don't support MinGW without tacking on MSYS, and have fun compiling with Microsoft compilers if the developers don't maintain relatively new Visual Studio project files!

Then as a Linux end-user, I had my Wi-Fi and Ethernet drivers uninstall themselves somehow after restarting Xubuntu. I don't know the exact drivers required! How am I supposed to install them, anyway? It was easier for me to nuke the disk and install Windows 7. My Wi-Fi drivers are still working on Windows 7 after a year...

But the problem is, with Linux is the 'open source or nothing' mentality. It's not easy to have a portable proprietary application that runs on all modern distros. I can pretty much ensure my Windows applications can at least function on a large portion of my target user base (Vista and up) without necessitating the end user to compile from source.

As far as Windows upgrades being cheap or free, that's because the desktop is dying, not because "M$ SUX." Sadly, the desktop is being replaced by something less libre than desktop Windows--mobile platforms! Closed environments that require you to get permission from the platform developer to even run your own software. Android may be based on Linux, but Google is not cohesive with the Linux philosophy (and Android is the mobile equivalent of Windows XP for the general user in regards to security). iOS and Windows Phone are locked down--but the end user doesn't care. Why should they if their apps run as expected?

*: I'm not here to argue semantics on what a power-user can or should be able to do on Windows and Linux. A 'Windows power-user' is not less skilled than a 'Linux power-user' simply by their choice of operating system. That's just a stupid thought. I remember, many years ago, having to edit a config file to enable certain supported resolutions not exposed by the display options on Mandrake (hence the many years ago). Seriously? Why did I have to do that? I know it's gotten better, but the elitist attitude of Windows power-users somehow being inferior to Linux power-users is one of many things that will keep Linux niche...

---
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Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

My feelings regarding Linux:

video

l j
Member #10,584
January 2009
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bamccaig said:

As for free or cheap Windows upgrades, there's a reason Microsoft is giving this

Yes, this also seemed suspicious to me, but I think they're simply trying to push their app store on windows 10 for all kinds of applications. So that's how they'd make money. Pretty much what Valve feared, I don't think Microsoft is going to be stupid enough (yet?) to enforce the distribution of all applications through the app store and app store only though.

Ariesnl
Member #2,902
November 2002
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XP was ( and is) a great OS..
Microsoft deliberately tries to break it...

The more I hear about Microsoft, the more I love Linux

Perhaps one day we will find that the human factor is more complicated than space and time (Jean luc Picard)
Current project: [Star Trek Project ] Join if you want ;-)

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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regular expressions are so absolutely amazing. We wrote some in the field that used Notepad++ and ripped out all non-printable ASCII characters that were corrupting a database import.

That just sounds like you corrupt the database import. :D What if those control characters were important?!

Yeah, even if they backport some of the changes there's really no guarantee they're tested and correct. Sooner-or-later feature creep is going to hit hard.

That's not feature creep. It just runs the risk of incompatibility. Getting the updates in the meantime might be the lesser evil, but generally I'd say just install a libre OS distro and be done with it... Things are different, but not worse. You will figure out how to do everything and more. All of the people using GNU+Linux or BSD know something that Windows-only people don't.

Wait, isn't ack [search] just a more specific form of grep -nr [search]?

It's a much more user-friendly version of grep. By default, it does recursive searches and ignores certain directories and files. I think it ignores binary files by default, and it skips version control repositories and metadata (e.g., .git, .hg, and .svn). These are things that you can't easily do with just grep (I usually end up with a pipeline like grep | grep -v | grep -v | grep -v). 99% of the time ack will do a better job with fewer options than grep. 1% of the time grep may be significantly faster or otherwise do a job that ack can't easily do.

Windows is the better operating system for end-users. It just works without fuss.

Not true. It often doesn't work, and often you have to beat it into working. You are just so used to doing it that you consider it normal and OK. Most people do. The trouble of learning to use a new system and running into imperfections is unbareable, but Windows sucking is absolutely grand.

I admit, it's easier for me to compile a new software release on Linux than Windows (i.e., software from Git), but that's largely because open source libraries that I use target Linux first and treat Windows as a second class citizen. Most libraries don't support MinGW without tacking on MSYS, and have fun compiling with Microsoft compilers if the developers don't maintain relatively new Visual Studio project files!

You're putting spin on that to misrepresent the situation. Free software is predominantly compiled using free software. Microsoft software is proprietary, closed source, and generally non-gratis. It's also different from everybody else and requires custom workarounds that nobody else does, which makes it a terrible thing to target by default for free software. It also happens to be a shit platform that most hackers don't like.

In other words, you can support 95% of the operating systems, 100% of the good ones, by using standards in C, C++, and POSIX. Most modern UNIX-like operating systems are pretty similar and supporting them is often automatic, or requires a very tiny fix to certain minor incompatibilities or inconsistencies. Then you have Windows: it's not POSIX, it's completely non-standard, and it's completely defective by design. In order to support it natively most of the code would have to be rewritten, and two copies maintained. That's not realistic. The best way to port hacker software to Windows is to use Cygwin or MSYS. That said, since most hackers have no use for Windows it's best to just not even bother. It's not a useful platform for hackers to support. The ones that do are mostly trying to ease the suffering of hackers that are stuck using Windows at work.

--but the end user doesn't care. Why should they if their apps run as expected?

There are more important things than fucking "apps". My girlfriend drives me crazy with her shit iPhone. The games she plays suck, and they are entirely designed to exploit her brain for their own profit. And exploit her private information while they're at it.

*: I'm not here to argue semantics on what a power-user can or should be able to do on Windows and Linux. A 'Windows power-user' is not less skilled than a 'Linux power-user' simply by their choice of operating system. That's just a stupid thought. I remember, many years ago, having to edit a config file to enable certain supported resolutions not exposed by the display options on Mandrake (hence the many years ago). Seriously? Why did I have to do that? I know it's gotten better, but the elitist attitude of Windows power-users somehow being inferior to Linux power-users is one of many things that will keep Linux niche...

It's very simple why you have to edit configuration files to tweak software in GNU+Linux. That's the most efficient way to support it. Writing a GUI application or even a command-line interface takes time. GUIs take a LOT of time to get working well. They're really not very cost effective. It's so much easier to use a plain text file that is accessible to everyone on any platform with no extra code required.

Of course, Windows has something much worse: the registry. And often the power user settings still aren't exposed through a GUI (ahem, see cost effectiveness) so you have to dive into the obscure registry to tweak a non-existent setting anyway. It has zero advantages over plain text files, and it has several disadvantages. At the end of the day, it basically serves the same function, but with way more bloat and lacking any accessibility.

Free software power users are more powerful because they have the power to do whatever they want with it. Windows power users can only do what Microsoft makes possible. GNU+Linux is not niche. GNU+Linux dominates the Web, and in my experience most competent software developers prefer it too (except for maybe the games industry, but Valve is driving a shift there too).

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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From what I read, Windows 10 is really free forever for those who upgrade in the first year. It looks like they've done cost-analysis and getting everyone to 10 as fast as possible will help them stop wasting money trying to support Windows XP, Vista, 7, 8, 8.1, and 10 all at the same time.

Yes yes, maybe they're trying to be The Devil 2.0. But it's not like I couldn't go back to 7 or Linux. Worst case I'll be annoyed my game developers don't support their audience (me).

bamccaig said:

That just sounds like you corrupt the database import. :D What if those control characters were important?!

No no no... Sage CRM is the devil. I'm going to completely ignore the fact that there are symbolic links three or more levels deep (which I then had to process and reconstruct in Python). I'm also going to ignore that their table and column names had no consistency. Some were camelcase, some were lower case, some had underscores. No, let's go straight to the true evil:

They packed entire HTML, and XML tag-ridden (and malformed with missing terminating tags) structures into SQL TEXT ELEMENTS. Not blobs. TEXT. Over 200MB of e-mails, some more than a MB individually because of all the saved replies. They exceeded the maximum column length for an Excel element (65536).

So dumping the structure to any file format other than blindly dumping a CSV crashed the exporter tools or the subsequent import (Excel files crashed hard in Excel, Libre, and OpenOffice, not to mention Microsoft Dynamics CRM). And that CSV, with those evil e-mail elements, contained newlines and XML tags, so it itself produced a corrupt CSV which failed in all three as well. Which then had to be restored to something readable. It had to be read in, string delimiters added, and then of course "de-pointerized" (best word I can think of?) because Dynamics CRM doesn't support looking up other elements for things that aren't already in the system. You can't have address.csv and companies.csv and have a company column that links to [address_id=15]. No, the address strings have to be physically in there.

Something else must have been wrong in their data too, because in sifting through it I find terrible terrible things like floating-point numbers in the phone number fields. :o:o:o

Sage also didn't validate data. So it let these morons store phone number extensions in things like people's last, or middle names. But it was NEVER. CONSISTENT. There were also letters in phone numbers. Like x, X, EXT.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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I happen to love Windows. I ran Windows XP for years without a virus checker at all. It didn't crash nor did it get infected with anything. My wife now runs it without any problems at all. It's the most secure, stable version of Windows Microsoft has made, which is also the bad thing about it as Microsoft's success with it is making it difficult for them to get rid of it.

Now that I am on Windows 7, it has been just as nice for me. No problems at all of any importance. Never crashed at all. I haven't seen a BSOD since Windows 98 days.

I have looked into Linux, but some of the anti-Windows bullshit comments make me want to use Windows only, just out of spite. I have seen a few problems on Linux. Recently I tried out Kubuntu and the first thing I noticed what the fact that it didn't do more than one task at a time very well, at least some of things I tried with it that I have no problems doing with Windows, and it was a version specifically built for my CPU.

I still prefer Windows, it works the way I want, it is as stable as one could expect and it has been very secure for me. For the past 15 years I simply have not seen the problems with it I keep hearing about and I'll probably upgrade my system to Windows 10 as I like what I see in it. I was considering throwing Linux on my wife's system, but now I may grab a new version of Windows for her as well (after I upgrade her computer).

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“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Erin Maus
Member #7,537
July 2006
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bamccaig said:

Not true. It often doesn't work, and often you have to beat it into working. You are just so used to doing it that you consider it normal and OK. Most people do. The trouble of learning to use a new system and running into imperfections is unbareable, but Windows sucking is absolutely grand.

The computer I'm typing this one was used by my mom for over 8 months before she passed. She was computer savvy enough to not need an antivirus (common sense--don't download random crap, ensure you're on the right website + some backup from NoScript). She used it without needing my help for these 8 months (other than me initially hacking the computer together using spare parts and installing Windows, basic stuff you'd have to do with Linux as well). I turned it on and just installed some 30-40 updates (would have had to do the same with Linux, too)... and guess what? It runs just as fine as it did, with no problems, when I built it over a year ago.

The same for my computer, and my brother's computer... I had a harder time troubleshooting the television (the audio was desynced when I hooked this computer up) than any problem when setting up or maintaining this computer.

Quote:

You're putting spin on that to misrepresent the situation. Free software is predominantly compiled using free software. Microsoft software is proprietary, closed source, and generally non-gratis. It's also different from everybody else and requires custom workarounds that nobody else does, which makes it a terrible thing to target by default for free software. It also happens to be a shit platform that most hackers don't like.

I didn't put a spin on anything. I said quite clearly that compiling open-source software on Linux is easier than on Windows because they target Linux primarily.

Quote:

In other words, you can support 95% of the operating systems

In other words, you also only support 1% of end users :).

Quote:

it's not POSIX, it's completely non-standard, and it's completely defective by design

I think your only reason that Windows sucks is that it's not POSIX-compliant or maybe it's just not Linux... really. Windows has standards, they're written up at MSDN. If you follow these standards you can be sure your software runs without fuss on any version of Windows that meets the minimum requirements you opt for (unless a feature is deprecated by a more modern one, but isn't that a given? and I can't think of anything other than undefined behavior [aka the author of the softwarejust wrote it wrong] that really has ever caused problems in different Windows versions).

Quote:

There are more important things than fucking "apps". My girlfriend drives me crazy with her shit iPhone. The games she plays suck, and they are entirely designed to exploit her brain for their own profit. And exploit her private information while they're at it.

"Apps" means applications as well. I don't mean "mobile apps" in this instance. Office, Visual Studio, PhotoShop, that kind of stuff is what I was talking about.

Quote:

It's very simple why you have to edit configuration files to tweak software in GNU+Linux. That's the most efficient way to support it. Writing a GUI application or even a command-line interface takes time. GUIs take a LOT of time to get working well. They're really not very cost effective. It's so much easier to use a plain text file that is accessible to everyone on any platform with no extra code required.

I don't disagree it's the most efficient (well, if your mouse is ripped out from your computer and you have a terminal open 24/7).

Quote:

Of course, Windows has something much worse: the registry. And often the power user settings still aren't exposed through a GUI (ahem, see cost effectiveness) so you have to dive into the obscure registry to tweak a non-existent setting anyway. It has zero advantages over plain text files, and it has several disadvantages. At the end of the day, it basically serves the same function, but with way more bloat and lacking any accessibility.

The options not exposed via normal GUIs are generally exposed via GPO. If they're exposed through neither, they are extremely niche.

Quote:

Windows power users can only do what Microsoft makes possible.

Incorrect. There's some amazing software not developed by Microsoft that shows just how creative a proper power-user + programmer can be (see most things by sysinternals before they were bought by MS).

Quote:

GNU+Linux dominates the Web.

My main computer is not a web server, thus irrelevant.

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StevenVI
Member #562
July 2000
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She was computer savvy enough to not need an antivirus (common sense--don't download random crap, ensure you're on the right website + some backup from NoScript)

I used to think that, too. But bugs in your web browser or plugins (like Flash or Java or Quicktime) can still end up exposing you to malicious code. I run antivirus software on my personal machine just to be safe.

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Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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She was computer savvy enough to not need an antivirus (common sense--don't download random crap, ensure you're on the right website + some backup from NoScript)

That's a red flag. If you run avast, you'll find that it flags all the time on common websites and web connections. Perhaps NoScript helps, but I really doubt it's capable of blocking all exploits.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Erin Maus
Member #7,537
July 2006
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StevenVI said:

I used to think that, too. But bugs in your web browser or plugins (like Flash or Java or Quicktime) can still end up exposing you to malicious code. I run antivirus software on my personal machine just to be safe.

and

That's a red flag. If you run avast, you'll find that it flags all the time on common websites and web connections. Perhaps NoScript helps, but I really doubt it's capable of blocking all exploits.

This computer (the one she used) has no viruses. I've never had a virus on any computer I'm the sole responsible party of. I may have said 'no antivirus,' but perhaps better put would have been 'no realtime antivirus.'

If you have JavaScript blocked on untrusted websites (aka just about them all), a proper ad blocking mechanism, keep software up to date, require permission to run plugins [and don't have crappy ones like Java or QuickTime], your chance (as an end-user) of getting a virus is extremely low. I mean like, hitting the jackpot low.

edit: Again I'd like to iterate that thus Windows installation is in tip top shape. I know I can't prove it (why would I have to, seriously), but it has and never has had a virus and the most trouble I had was waiting a few hours to install some few GB of updates on installing Windows 7 from a a vanilla release disc...

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Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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My Windows 7 directory is over 30 GB of my 100 GB SSD. :'( It keeps a snapshot of every driver, and nVidia releases 300MB drivers every week. There's supposedly a fix to the WinSXS problem, but the button doesn't show up on my installation.

I'm going to have to just reinstall to get my space back. But I don't want to loose all my important registry settings because every time that happens, the music I made misses a dependency and I can't easily fix it.

Also, when I updated my RAID drivers, it failed to finish installing. Upon reboot Windows couldn't boot. :( System restore fixed it, but why God, why does system restore backup anything OTHER than Windows? Who the hell needs a backup of every version of Adobe Acrobat reader?!

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Erin Maus
Member #7,537
July 2006
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I don't know if you're trying to discredit me, or say Windows is bad, or what, but...

My Windows 7 directory is over 30 GB of my 100 GB SSD. :'( It keeps a snapshot of every driver, and nVidia releases 300MB drivers every week. There's supposedly a fix to the WinSXS problem, but the button doesn't show up on my installation.

How many of those 30 GB are hard links? You can't just right click on a folder and assume that's how much disk space it's taking up. For example, my Windows folder is 20 gb if you account for hard links (27 gb if you don't take into account hard links).

Quote:

Also, when I updated my RAID drivers, it failed to finish installing. Upon reboot Windows couldn't boot. :( System restore fixed it, but why God, why does system restore backup anything OTHER than Windows? Who the hell needs a backup of every version of Adobe Acrobat reader?!

I don't see how that's a Windows problem, either. You updated your drivers, the software/OEM had a crap installer, and you were bit by it. At least it's not like somehow the drivers mysteriously uninstalled themselves sometime between turning off and turning on the computer (this happened to me with Linux and Wi-Fi drivers).

---
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Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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I don't know if you're trying to discredit me, or say Windows is bad, or what, but...

Neither. I'm listing some of my recent experiences with Windows. It is not as bulletproof as you make it out to be.

Quote:

How many of those 30 GB are hard links?

All of them. I'm not stupid. I know what a symbolic link is, and I know what happens when my hard drive is full of nothing but windows. Most people don't notice this problem because they don't have relatively small hard drives. My SSD, however, is. I also have 2.5 GB of Windows search indexing files.

Quote:

I don't see how that's a Windows problem, either.

It's kind of pathetic how easy it is to take down something you describe as sturdy.

And I say all of this using Windows 7 as my primary operating system because nothing out there is better than it. Linux is superior for developing, so I use it for that.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

The computer I'm typing this one was used by my mom for over 8 months before she passed. She was computer savvy enough to not need an antivirus (common sense--don't download random crap, ensure you're on the right website + some backup from NoScript). She used it without needing my help for these 8 months (other than me initially hacking the computer together using spare parts and installing Windows, basic stuff you'd have to do with Linux as well). I turned it on and just installed some 30-40 updates (would have had to do the same with Linux, too)... and guess what? It runs just as fine as it did, with no problems, when I built it over a year ago.

Protip: Your mom was exceptional. Most teenagers are not that savvy, let alone moms.

In any case, most users won't be bothered by issues using Facebook or E-mail. At least, not platform specific issues. The real issues are usually the result of peripherals (e.g., printers, MP3 players, microphones, GPU) or power user stuff. Windows is an absolutely acceptable platform for the newbies of the world. At least, usability wise. It does everything they need. The reason it's bad for them is ethical. It isn't safe. It doesn't respect their privacy. It doesn't respect their own property. And it doesn't respect their rights.

I didn't put a spin on anything. I said quite clearly that compiling open-source software on Linux is easier than on Windows because they target Linux primarily.

You worded it like it was the fault of the free software developers that building on Windows is hard. That's absolute bullshit. It's hard to build all software on Windows, including native Windows projects. If you're lucky the thing has no dependencies and it works with your toolchain (which probably means Visual Studio).

In reality, Windows isn't supported because Microsoft insists on doing things differently for vendor lock-in, and it's not worth the pain to provide support for Windows to most people (and when it is worth the pain, only in the form of Cygwin or MSYS ports). When it is supported free software is often no worse to build in Windows. The only pains come from dependencies because there's no package manager. Again, it's a failing completely of Microsoft and Windows and proprietary software. Free software is not to blame.

In other words, you also only support 1% of end users :).

And 100% of the users you care about. If it's gratis then you aren't getting paid for it so market share is irrelevant.

Windows has standards, they're written up at MSDN. If you follow these standards you can be sure your software runs without fuss on any version of Windows that meets the minimum requirements you opt for (unless a feature is deprecated by a more modern one, but isn't that a given? and I can't think of anything other than undefined behavior [aka the author of the softwarejust wrote it wrong] that really has ever caused problems in different Windows versions).

Perhaps you have never done serious development in Windows. The MSDN documentation is rarely good. Most of the time it sucks, is practically useless, and sometimes it's blatantly wrong. The actual APIs are often buggy and broken. And Microsoft usually refuses to fix bugs unless it directly affects their bottom line, and good luck convincing a manager of that unless you're calling from a major client. I may prefer GNU+Linux, but I have been employed for 8 years in predominantly Windows shops doing mostly ASP, Win32, and .NET development.

"Apps" means applications as well. I don't mean "mobile apps" in this instance. Office, Visual Studio, PhotoShop, that kind of stuff is what I was talking about.

Of course, "apps" are just applications. Applications are not different from "apps". "Apps" is a buzzword to make people think there's something special about them, which makes it possible to exploit users in new and interesting ways.

"This app needs your personal identity and location in order to record a grocery list."
"This app is not liked by us so we're automatically removing it from your device remotely against your will."

The point that I was trying to make is that there are more important things than having "apps" to do convenient things. Like, say, the freedom to do exactly what you want with your own computing device without being exploited against your will.

I don't disagree it's the most efficient (well, if your mouse is ripped out from your computer and you have a terminal open 24/7).

It's the most efficient because you don't have to develop new software to use it. No need for a command shell. You can open them with your favorite text editor directly from your desktop if you want (you may need to launch it using a super-user privileges application). Of course, it is way more efficient to do from the command shell, but that's beside the point. That's often true even if a GUI does exist for any non-trivial software.

The options not exposed via normal GUIs are generally exposed via GPO. If they're exposed through neither, they are extremely niche.

I had to Google "GPO". I imagine most of us would. What have you ever configured using GPOs?

Incorrect. There's some amazing software not developed by Microsoft that shows just how creative a proper power-user + programmer can be (see most things by sysinternals before they were bought by MS).

Aside from binary (and illegal) cracks to the operating system, most things that third party software can be doing are only possible because Microsoft has exposed it through an API (albeit, often they are undocumented APIs). In general, the really cool things require license violations that would land you in a world of hurt if caught (e.g., reverse engineering explorer.exe and cracking it).

This computer (the one she used) has no viruses. I've never had a virus on any computer I'm the sole responsible party of. I may have said 'no antivirus,' but perhaps better put would have been 'no realtime antivirus.'

If you have JavaScript blocked on untrusted websites (aka just about them all), a proper ad blocking mechanism, keep software up to date, require permission to run plugins [and don't have crappy ones like Java or QuickTime], your chance (as an end-user) of getting a virus is extremely low. I mean like, hitting the jackpot low.

Browser exploits (core browser, not addons or extensions) often permit drive-by-downloads within the main payload to compromise the machine. No need for JavaScript, or binary addons like Flash or QuickTime. Albeit, these do each add additional risks.

My parents cannot seem to run a Windows machine for more than a few months without getting infected with junk. That's with their computer set up with malware protection and me installing ad blockers and the like. When I was living at home I also had them using NoScript, but they just stopped using the computer because it was too much for them to handle. If they needed something done they'd ask me to do it (which worked fine until I moved out).

How many of those 30 GB are hard links? You can't just right click on a folder and assume that's how much disk space it's taking up. For example, my Windows folder is 20 gb if you account for hard links (27 gb if you don't take into account hard links).

Does Windows Explorer not understand hard links? Why would it count them twice? ::)

At least it's not like somehow the drivers mysteriously uninstalled themselves sometime between turning off and turning on the computer (this happened to me with Linux and Wi-Fi drivers).

Nothing "mysteriously" happens in free software. You get this mindset from using proprietary software. Everything is behind the curtain and you can't know what happened. With free software you either don't know what you're doing or there's a bug, but in either case you can find out which and fix it. Linux drivers do not just mysteriously uninstall themselves. PEBKAC, or your distro had a bug.

Erin Maus
Member #7,537
July 2006
avatar

It's kind of pathetic how easy it is to take down something you describe as sturdy.

I microwaved my Linux installation and now it won't boot :(. Please help.

Quote:

All of them. I'm not stupid. I know what a symbolic link is, and I know what happens when my hard drive is full of nothing but windows. Most people don't notice this problem because they don't have relatively small hard drives. My SSD, however, is. I also have 2.5 GB of Windows search indexing files.

Maybe I wasn't clear. A majority of that 30 gb is probably non-existent Also, I have a 128 GB SSD with Windows installed on it (and Plex transcodes on it; I admit, that's not a good idea, but I can't be bothered to fix it now). I know the feeling of running low on space. But that can't be helped because we chose such a small disk in the first place.

bamccaig said:

Perhaps you have never done serious development in Windows. The MSDN documentation is rarely good. Most of the time it sucks, is practically useless, and sometimes it's blatantly wrong. The actual APIs are often buggy and broken. And Microsoft usually refuses to fix bugs unless it directly affects their bottom line, and good luck convincing a manager of that unless you're calling from a major client. I may prefer GNU+Linux, but I have been employed for 8 years in predominantly Windows shops doing mostly ASP, Win32, and .NET development.

I'm ignoring the rest of your bullshit (basically the majority of your post) but this hit me right in my ego. "Perhaps... I've never done serious development in Windows?" You're kidding, right?

I do very serious development on Windows. A few years back, I successfully broke Windows Media DRM through a specialized attack on WMP to allow for packet decryption so I could relatively reliably strip the DRM on a movie I downloaded from Amazon's store (I'm sure the attack could be extended to be general purpose, but I just wanted to be able to watch my purchase on my Zune :)). I have a pretty reliable hook injection API, built entirely from MSDN documentation and articles.

If I have a question about how a specific API is supposed to function, I find MSDN an excellent reference. Off-hand on something recent, it clearly states in the section on DLL initialization that you can't use LoadModule in DllMain, which pre-emptively let me fix a bug in my DLL injection library. If you search MSDN further, there's articles on why LoadModule can't be called. See the page on LoadLibrary; it links directly to a lengthy article on the state of the DLL loader. Clear, concise, exact.

As far as 'bugs in the implementations,' I don't know how you can jump to that conclusion. Maybe if you don't read the documentation, or don't understand the overall architecture of certain APIs, then yeah, you may consider them buggy. But Microsoft, on MSDN, clearly outlines the proper usage of all their foundational APIs.

I've held my tongue (fingers, whatever), but I've just got to say, just because you may use 'libre software', hate Windows, and verge on zealotry about 'proper programming practices' does not mean you are a better programmer than us poor Windows peasants. Get the stick out of your ass.

Also, I'd like to note that in your post you made at least one foundational mistake on how a feature is supposed to work in order to brush off Windows:

Quote:

Does Windows Explorer not understand hard links? Why would it count them twice?

How is Windows supposed to resolve references to hard link in order to give a 100% reliable directory size? Please provide an efficient algorithm other than scanning each file and cross-referencing it with each other file you've scanned so far. Considering hard links are generally used only by system software on Windows, I don't see the need to slow down file size calculations for every other use case.

And for being so much of a power-user, you don't know what the GPO is despite you working (I assume) in a Windows environment for a living:

Quote:

I had to Google "GPO". I imagine most of us would. What have you ever configured using GPOs?

I don't see how me using the GPO is relevant or not. It's like saying 'When's the last time you changed the LowLevelHooksTimeout value in the registry?' when I noted the location of it in a thread prior, unrelated to this topic. The GPO used primarily in a organizational setting (hence why I did not feel the need to explain, because I figured you have experience with it considering your field).

I'd like to end this by saying I have more important things to do than argue in the special olympics over Windows and Linux. I wasn't going to reply, but since you... let's see... purposely called into question of my knowledge of Windows development, I felt I had to clarify some things.

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.
they / she

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

bamccaig said:

Perhaps you have never done serious development in Windows. *snip*

I'm ignoring the rest of your bullshit (basically the majority of your post) but this hit me right in my ego. "Perhaps... I've never done serious development in Windows?" You're kidding, right?

I do very serious development on Windows. A few years back, I successfully broke Windows Media DRM through a specialized attack on WMP to allow for packet decryption so I could relatively reliably strip the DRM on a movie I downloaded from Amazon's store (I'm sure the attack could be extended to be general purpose, but I just wanted to be able to watch my purchase on my Zune :)). I have a pretty reliable hook injection API, built entirely from MSDN documentation and articles.

If I have a question about how a specific API is supposed to function, I find MSDN an excellent reference. Off-hand on something recent, it clearly states in the section on DLL initialization that you can't use LoadModule in DllMain, which pre-emptively let me fix a bug in my DLL injection library. If you search MSDN further, there's articles on why LoadModule can't be called. See the page on LoadLibrary; it links directly to a lengthy article on the state of the DLL loader. Clear, concise, exact.

I didn't intend to insult your expertise or experience level. Clearly you have had vastly different experiences with Windows development and MSDN than I have, and several other people have. Just because the APIs that you have worked with are well documented and reliable does not mean everything Microsoft does is. It's as very big company with very fragmented departments and politics. Even Microsoft programmers rant about each others departments sucking and their documentation sucking. It occurred to me that perhaps you just haven't done anything real with it to have run into one of these cases. I reiterate, perhaps you have just been lucky because I assure you the whole of MSDN is not golden.

As far as 'bugs in the implementations,' I don't know how you can jump to that conclusion. Maybe if you don't read the documentation, or don't understand the overall architecture of certain APIs, then yeah, you may consider them buggy. But Microsoft, on MSDN, clearly outlines the proper usage of all their foundational APIs.

No need to jump to the conclusion. Bugs reported to Microsoft, Microsoft replying back confirming the bug and confirming that they aren't going to fix it.

What exactly is a "foundational" API? Is it only important for the core system APIs to work as advertised?

How is Windows supposed to resolve references to hard link in order to give a 100% reliable directory size? Please provide an efficient algorithm other than scanning each file and cross-referencing it with each other file you've scanned so far. Considering hard links are generally used only by system software on Windows, I don't see the need to slow down file size calculations for every other use case.

I'm not sure about how Windows file systems are structured, but I imagine they're similar to UNIX. In UNIX, a hard link is simply a name that references an inode i.e., file. Multiple hard links referring to the same inode just means that multiple names map to the same inode. There would be a negligible cost associated with it, but you could easily avoid duplicates by keeping a hashset of inodes reached and skip ones that have already been counted. That appears to be how du(1) works by default. I can't say for sure if the popular desktop file browsers in GNU+Linux do the same, but I don't see why not (they might even use the same library).

What's the point of calculating the recursive size of a directory if it's wrong by several orders of magnitude?

And for being so much of a power-user, you don't know what the GPO is despite you working (I assume) in a Windows environment for a living...

*snip*

I don't see how me using the GPO is relevant or not. *snip* The GPO used primarily in a organizational setting (hence why I did not feel the need to explain, because I figured you have experience with it considering your field).

Group policies are intended more for organizational network management (as you said yourself). I'm a programmer/analyst, not a system administrator. I have no use for GPOs. I don't intend to limit what I can do to my computing devices. That's why I'm curious what uses you have had for them that apply to this situation (what configuration options you've been able to control through GPOs). In my world, I don't find them overly useful.

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