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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Well, if they don't have the balls to ignore the pressure...

I see what you did there... But either you're being facetious, or you've missed the point. It's not the same pressure men get. Men who are in charge get called manly and powerful, women in the same positions who act similarly get called bossy and even bitchy.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
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I see what you did there... But either you're being facetious, or you've missed the point. It's not the same pressure men get. Men who are in charge get called manly and powerful, women in the same positions who act similarly get called bossy and even bitchy.

It's useless to try to talk about the effects of privilege and structural problems with people who can't recognize their own privileges, or accept that such a thing exist.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
avatar

This is a very complex issue that one-off statistics don't do justice.

We live in a free market. Unless there is some global conspiracy here, the pay is fair by definition. If Company A mistreats women or pays them unfairly, then Company B in the same marketplace would hire them to get a competitive advantage.

Men work more hours, are more likely to travel for work, and are more likely to climb the ladder due to working without ever taking extended breaks (to raise children). It's only common sense that they would make more money on average than women.

So if you want things to even out, then pass laws that exactly 50% of husbands must take primary care of their children, or that all families must pay for third-party child care, etc... Otherwise, you'll continue to have pay gaps.

StevenVI
Member #562
July 2000
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It is also my observation that generally women are less prone to ask for raises, and negotiate for them less ferociously, giving them a lower salary due to their own failures.

Indeed, this is the feeling that I get as well when I talk to my coworkers. Recently the company I worked for was acquired, and everyone was offered a job with the new company and an x% raise. Some of us negotiated for higher, others were happy with the x%, even if they hadn't actually gotten a raise in a few years.

Bear in mind that I don't have too many data points on this, and it's just anecdotal. But I do regularly get the impression that the women I work with are getting paid much less than I am.

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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We live in a free market. Unless there is some global conspiracy here, the pay is fair by definition.

Well theres two problems there. First, we don't live in a free market, and second there is something that appears like a conspiracy, except not many people these days would admit to being sexist on purpose. That is however an unfortunate thing that many people still suffer from. People are also still racist and homophobic. I doubt that'll change.

Quote:

So if you want things to even out, then pass laws that exactly 50% of husbands must take primary care of their children, or that all families must pay for third-party child care, etc... Otherwise, you'll continue to have pay gaps.

I think that's silly. If a woman does the same work, she should get the same pay. If she takes years off work due to having a kid, she should probably not get paid for that time off. Much like a man who takes years off for whatever reason.

A woman should not get less just because she is capable of getting pregnant.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Here you go, problem solved. :D

video

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“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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I have to say I agree with bamccaig almost 100% about what he said, but there is also a pay gap and a culture of male dominance physically and of female submission. Do what you're told or I'll beat you again, etc... females of today are ahead in many many ways, claiming lots of rights in the last 100 years, but are still behind in others.

But again, bamccaig has a lot of it right. Men are fodder and women hold sexual power supreme with exceptions - they decide when and where and with who and how many partners they have. Women rarely have a shortage of willing partners, but nice guys and po' broke' fools like me don't stand a chance. Maybe one day when I'm rich with programmer pay women will start paying attention to me again. Sigh. :P

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

That means we have no direct experience with the problems feminism was born to address.

Yes, but some of us have a brain and therefore can form an opinion about something we have not personally experienced. Often even a better one than people who are directly affected since (in general) the judgment of those may get impaired by a conflict of interest.

NiteHackr said:

Here you go, problem solved.

But destroying US currency is a crime...

Anyway, luckily my girlfriend is not feminist :) She's always been top of her class in school/university, so she's always been better than males as well as females. And I guess in her fields (flute performer, teacher) there isn't really any perceived disadvantage for women. (In fact the flute class in her final year has 100% females...) And it's also clear to us that neither of us will be able to take more than 3-6 weeks off work once our first child is born.

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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There is no good evidence to suggest that women are paid less for being women. They might get paid less for doing a worse job, for having less experience, for working fewer hours, or for being less aggressive when negotiating, to cite a few examples, but there's no evidence to suggest that employers explicitly pay women less because they're women. In fact, in many cases, when you actually look at the data without bias you find that in our day women are actually often paid slightly more than men when you factor in all available data points. It shouldn't surprise you. Companies are forced to hire women to appease Feminist politics. It makes sense that they'd have to overcompensate them too. The last thing you want in our political climate is the publicity of a woman claiming she's being discriminated against by your company!

As for a "culture of male dominance and female submission", that isn't cultural, that is physiological. It is human nature. There's nothing wrong with it. That is how we are most happy. Women should not feel ashamed for being submissive, nor should men be shamed for being dominant. When you ask women what they like in an open environment they will almost always answer that they like dominant males and like to themselves be submissive (there are exceptions to every rule, but they're in the minority). You can even do this in the context of a discussion about feminism, and most women that claim to be feminist and believe in feminist ideals will still say that they prefer dominant men and themselves to be submissive. When you point out that it's a little bit contradictory they just excuse it with nonsense (either shamelessly admitting hypocrisy without it affecting their beliefs, or arguing that it isn't a contradiction because feminism is good and right and obviously correct just because i.e., bullshit). If anything, Feminism is oppressing women and girls by convincing them that they are something that they are not. Feminism does not fight for the needs of all women or girls. It is a small minority deciding what is right and good for the rest of them. It is more or less a political force now (i.e., not activism, but politics i.e., government policy).

Women and girls are not born believing they are oppressed or that it's wrong to be submissive. That is an idea that society is drilling into them and us from day one, and an idea that has only been taught to us for the last 60 years or so. It's a real shame because it isn't something that we understand well (clearly) and there's good evidence to suggest that it is basically confusing everyone and contrary to our very nature. Which is why you have manginas as we've seen in this thread throwing around words like "misogynist" without even understanding what they're arguing about. And why women believe in one thing and practice the complete opposite. The default stance of people in our generation is, "of course women are oppressed!" and "of course women are just as good as men at everything!" They haven't actually given it much thought or done any research on the matter. It is what they were taught to believe, and taught that it is heinous to question (where have we seen that before), and so they believe it. They can't offer you any reliable evidence to support it. Only subjective opinions and tainted data.

The main thing to keep in mind is that gender is not black and white. Biology is not a perfect process. That's why we have transgendered people, and homosexual people, etc. There are always exceptions to generalizations (that's what makes them generalizations), but generalizations are still useful and good ones apply most of the time. There are women that will absolutely surprise you with their abilities in male-dominated activities. They are a minority, however, and in my experience there is usually evidence of a grey-area gender (they are most often clearly female by anatomy, but from my observations are disproportionately homosexuals, which suggests that their biology isn't purely female[1], and that it isn't their female biology that allows them to compete with males).

Long before feminism came along there were women in male positions. Certainly some things weren't always socially or legally accepted, and occasionally there were some unjust laws and social standards, but it most often wasn't out of malice, but mere ignorance. We're talking about people that believed in witches and other nonsense. You have to remember that we have thousands of years of accumulated knowledge, much of which our ancestors did not (our knowledge has grown exponentially in the last 200 years). It's hard for us to really appreciate what it was like for them or what made them arrive at the decisions that they did. This becomes even more clear when you realize that we still have a vast majority of people with ridiculous ideas and beliefs and generally still living in the dark ages. You really can't say that all 9 billion of us are on the same wave lengths. Powerful world leaders essentially herd the entire population like sheep by manipulating the media and economy and censoring or silencing free speech and free thought.

As a rule, a person is needed to tend to the house and children, which used to be a full-time job (and still can be). It used to be that a woman that wanted to do a man's job instead would likely have to sacrifice having a family, as well as sacrifice the support and protection a man would ideally provide. However, it isn't really in the best interests of a community to let women do this. That essentially wastes the reproductive capacity of those women. Certainly there is an argument for freedom and choice, but at the same time we are also animals and our survival depends on biological certainties. It also goes against our nature to allow a woman to struggle. The community would be coerced to support her, but that isn't really fair to the community since she wouldn't really be fulfilling her role in return.

When push came to shove it was the men that we all looked at to get us through it. That is still very much true today. If Feminism was really interested in literal "equality" then it would be fighting for equal responsibilities for women too. They don't want that. Who in their right mind would fight for responsibilities when you can get the rights and privileges for free? Most Feminists oppose the responsibilities, and the ones that don't are generally unaffected by them.

It seems to me that most Feminist activists do not have real jobs themselves. The activism is their job. In other words, the fight can never stop because they'd lose their job. So even if Feminism accomplishes everything it set out to do (for all intents and purposes it had decades ago by first and second wave standards) the movement isn't going to stop because that is just what these women do for a living. They will always be able to invent more and more "inequalities" to fight against because they aren't actually based on logic or reason, and if you think about it women controlling the majority of the money basically empower them to. The Feminist activists that aren't getting paid well for the activism generally have [ex-]husbands to support them (shhhh, don't tell anybody!).

In my opinion I think that things were actually more equal in the days of yore. It wasn't perfect, and there was room for improvement, but this isn't perfect either. This may be less equal than it has ever been. Men still have all of the responsibilities that they ever had, but society doesn't respect or appreciate them anymore for it, and now all of the power and privilege has been shifted to women that have no responsibilities. That doesn't make any sense. With power comes responsibility. That is how it is supposed to work. The system we have built now is completely imbalanced and essentially completely unfair. Men just need to wake up and smell the coffee and get with the program before the damage is irreversible (though that ship may have already sailed).

References

  1. Studies have apparently shown that lesbian brain scans more closely resemble those of heterosexual men than heterosexual women.
Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

Okay, well I agreed with you on the earlier post, but this time you've gone a bit over the deep end I think.

Dominance and submission are not hard wired into the male and female brain. I for one, am perfectly fine being on equal footing with women. I don't feel the need to dominate / control / manipulate / coerce / etc. I want an equal partnership, especially in relationships. It's never good when it is all one sided.

bamccaig said:

Long before feminism came along there were women in male positions.

No, this is pretty false. Women have not had access to positions of political power other than by being born into royalty for quite a long time. There has long been male privilege over women. It's only recently the tables have turned. It's hard for men to get used to women in positions of power. Men have been in charge for so long they don't know what its like to be subordinate anymore and it scares them. It's a threat to their masculinity. Women have been and are still being treated like property all over the world, but things have gotten a lot better.

What do you think of this poem and journal article from deviantArt? -

I need feminism because
It’s acceptable to call me a slut.
I need feminism because
It’s okay for a guy to slap my butt.
I need feminism because
It’s my own fault if a man rapes me.
I need feminism because
I should look good for men to see.
I need feminism because
People think it means ‘anti-man’.
I need feminism because
I can’t do things that men can.
I need feminism because
Girls think it’s cool to shame each other.
I need feminism because
The world has higher hopes for my brother.
I need feminism because
My femininity makes me ‘weak’.
I need feminism because
If I act masculine I’m a ‘freak’.
I need feminism because
My boobs are my ‘best quality’.
I need feminism because
I believe in equality.

The journal has received over 12,000 comments and the poem itself has received over 4,000 comments by now.

I agree with some of it but I am really more egalitarian than masculinist or feminist.

I thought of writing a poetic retort called I need masculinism about how women have so much more privelege than men in some areas like in bam's first post but then I'd sound like a chauvinist. :P

Edit
To appear somewhat on topic, I have this ring that I would like to be able to give to someone. It's not an engagement ring, more like a sweetheart ring. Not super expensive either. It's by Stauer, and they specialize in mineral and synthetic stones. http://www.stauer.com
{"name":"tanzanite_ring_2_by_nemonameless-d50sexk.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/8\/0\/8053480686f46e8f2d9804d0b3ade6b2.jpg","w":900,"h":1023,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/8\/0\/8053480686f46e8f2d9804d0b3ade6b2"}tanzanite_ring_2_by_nemonameless-d50sexk.jpg

beoran
Member #12,636
March 2011

In cases of gender there is real discrimination, but also "perceived" discrimination, which is the overreaction caused by heightened sensitivity due to the real discrimination. Of course, the people discriminated against will try to fight back, but quite a few will end up going off in the deep end. "Will to power", as Nietsche would say. The result is that in many countries in the world we have screwed up laws that are intent to "protect" women, but end up being injust to men, and bascially cause problems for both genders. The reaction to such injustices from men is predictable, but in a sense, not really helpful in solving the problem. What is needed is more mutual understanding between men and women.

I think the fundamenal error is "equality thinking". Equality thinking is a oversimplified view of reality where everyone should get equal treatment simply because they are humans. However, people are all diffferent, even if their gender is the same. What is much more important than striving for equality is striving for justice and fairness. People should be treated justly and fairly, based on their personal characteristics. This may mean inequal treatment in some cases, as long as the difference in treatment is due to objective and relevant reasons.

For example, with regards of employment, gender, color or orientation are in most cases irrelevant. Moreso, whether you asked for a raise or not is also irrelevant. What should matter to a reasonable, fair employer is the difficulty, quality and quantity of the work done by the employees seen over the whole of their carreer with that employer. However, the problem is that most employers don't even apply such reasonable approach with their male employees, nevermind the female ones...

Karadoc ~~
Member #2,749
September 2002
avatar

Elias said:

Yes, but some of us have a brain and therefore can form an opinion about something we have not personally experienced. Often even a better one than people who are directly affected since (in general) the judgment of those may get impaired by a conflict of interest.

Not just some of us, Elias, but all of us. That's exactly what we're all doing. The material point though is that those opinions may not be well supported by facts, and it would be a mistake to presume we are smart enough to speak for the good of the female population. Opinions are good, but we should take special care not to overreach with limited knowledge and experience.

We live in a free market. Unless there is some global conspiracy here, the pay is fair by definition. If Company A mistreats women or pays them unfairly, then Company B in the same marketplace would hire them to get a competitive advantage.

In some sense, you're right. Women have the legal rights to do the same things men do, and so there's no explicit barriers stopping women from getting equal pay and so on. But on the other hand, laws are market pressures just a small part of what regulates people's behaviour.

Lets take a moment to consider why there are almost zero women on allegro.cc. Women and men have equal access to the site, so I guess the obvious answer is that women just don't want to be here. I think that much is clear, but that's just a shallow explanation. Women not wanting to be here is the symptom. What is the cause? Maybe it has something to do with how women are treated here.

Women on allegro.cc are treated like they are some kind of strange and exotic creature. They get heaps of unsolicited attention, and they get stereotyped, and their motives get questioned. They hear discussions about how they are hard wired to be submissive, and they are told how to act - either implicitly or explicitly. Men are treated like normal people, with their own interests and responsibilities. Men speak for themselves, and are treated as individuals. Women are treated as though they are an ambassador from a foreign world. When they speak, they are taken to be speaking for all women. They carry the burden of implicit expectations about their interests and lack of programming ability based solely on their gender.

I don't think it is at all surprising that there are no women here. If I was a woman, I wouldn't want to post here; and if I did post here I'd take careful steps to conceal my gender; because if anyone found out then my stay here would become unpleasant. There is no rule or condition on allegro.cc that says people should be male. But the social conditions in here are not welcoming for women.

There are fewer women than men in the game-making business anyway, but allegro.cc certainly skews the ratio a lot further. At this point, it's probably worth taking a moment to read this, which is a small collection of tweets about why there are more men than women in the games industry.

These are not market issues or legal issues; they are social issues. And these same social issues apply all professions, to varying degrees. Women can choose to work hard, but they are expected to fail and are treated with less respect. They can be promoted, but they have to be significantly more qualified than men to 'stand out', otherwise they are assumed to be mediocre. The people in the top jobs are men, and they promote people who are similar to themselves -- men.

...

A lot of these issues are subtle. But the main thing that motivated me to post on this topic in the first place was bamccaig's comment that feminism has fucked up society. That comment was not subtle. It was an outrageous unprovoked attack on a movement which has brought significant improvements to the lives of more than half the population (in the countries affected). Regardless of whether you think we've reached gender equality, only the ignorant or sexist would think that feminism has fucked up society as it stands currently. (and it's pretty easy to be sexist if you're ignorant.)

-----------

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

Karadoc ~~ +1

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007

The issue of women here reminds me of a post on reddit about women in e-sports.

In capitalist America bank robs you.

Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
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Karadoc ~~: Well written! I'm amazed you manage to read the posts in this thread without getting a rage-induced stroke.

pkrcel
Member #14,001
February 2012

I was about to post some personal experiences but those do NOT add anything so I've ditched it.

Thou I'd like to add...

While Bambam's could be agreed on some points, as there WAS (and prolly there IS still) a skewed up idea of feminism which did and does more harm than good to female all over the world because throws away the evident gender differences and professes an all-levels-of-equality ideology that trashes those differences which are a value and on which we should build upon our social threads ...

...on the other hand he stuffs his arguing with some gigantic BS statements that make the most dismiss them without further reading.

Karadoc++ also by me (thou I do not agree 100% on his terms as well, but here's the aforementioned personal experience that kicks in).

One last thing: what the hell happened to women on a.cc? ???

It is unlikely that Google shares your distaste for capitalism. - Derezo
If one had the eternity of time, one would do things later. - Johan Halmén

Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
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I think Karadoc~~ makes the strongest point with backed up evidence; we do treat women differently, because their purty and they smell of strawberry after a shower.

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Please check out my songs:
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SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
avatar

Maybe it has something to do with how women are treated here.

Where's the evidence? I don't think that's the reason. Even in the most feminist programming communities (they have a code of conduct and people are actively banned for being 10% as sexist as bamccaig) I've been in the male to female ratio was still extremely skewed... I like how you're trying to figure out the reason why there are few females on this site, and yet you focus on the pro-feminist point as the sole topic of your post. Kind of feels like you don't want to actually find the answer to the question.

Now I know for a fact that bamccaig alone has been responsible for some females leaving the IRC, but that's bamccaig. I don't really get how he's still not banned in more places.

Quote:

If I was a woman, I wouldn't want to post here

I don't know, maybe it might be a mistake to presume we are smart enough to speak for the good of the female population.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

SiegeLord said:

Where's the evidence? I don't think that's the reason.

Thing is, people already know engeneering and most tech circles are highly dominated by men, and the men tend to be chauvinistic. They are seen to be actively hostile to women. If you were a woman, would you want to get into the business?

I've also read about a phenomenon where girls are taught from a very early age that math and science isn't for girls. They are equally capable of math and science but they are convinced that they can't do it and its too hard.

I also (used to) hear "You're just a girl" a lot told to girls when they have problems, rather than actually helping them. I'm sure that helps bias the population.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
avatar

All fair points, but nothing to do with allegro.cc's treatment of women.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

SiegeLord said:

All fair points, but nothing to do with allegro.cc's treatment of women.

I think its more or less the same thing. The few that are into allegro and games don't get treated as equals (because they are "just girls") and don't want to hang around.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

But the social conditions in here are not welcoming for women.

So what are the social conditions which make an online forum welcoming for women?

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
avatar

Lets take a moment to consider why there are almost zero women on allegro.cc. Women and men have equal access to the site, so I guess the obvious answer is that women just don't want to be here. I think that much is clear, but that's just a shallow explanation. Women not wanting to be here is the symptom. What is the cause? Maybe it has something to do with how women are treated here.

Why do you say there are no women? Many of the people here have gender neutral usernames. What does it say about you that you assume all programmers are men?

I was going to say something about the "men's club" environments. Yes, it's unhealthy, and yes it scares away women. But I really don't think it has a major effect on the total number of women in the programming field... although it definitely changes where they work. But it still isn't fair, and it is embarrassing as a man to be associated with that.

Programming is by and large dull work that isn't attractive to the average woman. Yes, as a generalization, women and men enjoy different things! Where are the 15 year old women hackers? Sure they exist, but they are dwarfed in number by men. To close the gender gap, you have to start younger. You have to make it attractive to women before they become adults. You can either make programming less impersonal (how?) or train young women to enjoy these sorts of activities (how?).

It's not like a man or a woman can go to college and decide to be a programmer and then be on equal footing with their peers. The best people in the field are self taught and have been doing these things for many years before entering the workforce.

To look at the end result of gender gap and just assume something horrible and evil is the cause ... well, that doesn't sit right with me. I get tired of hearing that there need to be more black quarterbacks in the NFL while nobody complains that there hasn't been a white cornerback in 30 years. Or that we need more female programmers, but nobody worries about the number of male secretaries or nurses, etc. :P

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
avatar

The few that are into allegro and games

Why are there few of them? Is it allegro.cc's fault? As I said, even in the most female friendly communities I've been in there have been fewer females than males. It's just blatantly false and libelous to say that allegro.cc has few women because they are treated badly at allegro.cc.

A statement that has a greater chance of being correct would be that allegro.cc has fewer females than average (the average being dismal) but that's hardly the way it's been put.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

SiegeLord said:

It's just blatantly false and libelous to say that allegro.cc has few women because they are treated badly at allegro.cc

I think the reason we have almost 0 regular non lurker female members because they are treated badly.

I think if that wasn't a problem we might actually have a few known regular women posters that are actually into games. As it is, theres essentially 0.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730



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